Daeron

Okay, it is high time I had some sort of Project thread for this car. I just can't bring myself to really get into any of the Honda forums; way too much volume, not enough informed people per capita. So here, to the "other vehicles" no-response subforum it goes I bought this car a couple days before Christmas. God I love that picture.. Yes, thats my 75 280Z in the background It is a 1991 CRX HF. 5 speed, 390K miles on the odo, in REALLY nice shape, except the hood was smashed, and the windshield, and the hatch glass, and the radiator. Details follow on a machine that, believe it or not, drives more like a Mustang or a Camaro than a Civic. The reason is a dumb-luck previous owner engine longblock swap; this engine has "under 100K on it." Car as I bought it: Allright.. So originally, the CRX HF came with an 8 valve, roller-rocker head on a standard D15B bottom end. The D-series is the late 80s/90s civc motor, in the US none came with more than one cam but some other market motors were DOHC, some VTEC and non, but its basically your standard civic motor with a bajillion heads that make it different, and maybe two or three strokes, and lots of piston/rod combinations. ALL the other motors were at least 12 valve, i think the majority were 16 valve SOHC but the HF motor was 8. It came with something like 65 horsepower, and 105lb-ft of torque, and the gearing was super steep; this car wasn't "the cheap one," it was the ultra economy car. quotes range from 45 to 53 mpg. The car weighs 1967 stock brand new (and the 90-91 was the "fat one;" in 88 the car was essentially identical but weighed 130 pounds less!) So, like I said before just before Christmas this car came up on craigslist and my brother and I went to look at it; smashed windshield and hatch glass, smashed hood, bent front bumper, JY fender, no radiator, no headlights.. $500. My brother and I immediately noticed that the struts had little colored indicators on the tops, and adjusters... hellloooo.. Konis, Tim, did you see that, yah, shhh.. He laid down on the ground and peeked underneath, and sees lowering springs (H&R, a good brand) and camber adjustment kits all around, the same adjustable shocks in the back... OOooOOooOO So I bought the car. Got home to look it all up and find that the pieces on the car would cost about 1200-1400 bucks new, *subtle distinction: I bought this car from "the kid" and he bought it from the "PO"* Now, the kid had never had the car on the road. PO said they backed into it with a truck (dunno if he bought that story or if he was trying to pawn it off on me, this car was in an accident. Minor, but no truck backed into it, it was an accident.) PO also said that the stock engine (that 8 valve roller-rocker 60 horse power plant) had blown and was replaced with a japanese junkyard motor. The engine code doesn't follow USDM nomenclature (where they are all D15Bx, where x is anything from 1 to 9; the HF was d15b6, the DX was d15b2, etc) It just says D15B, so its basically the standard DX type engine (D15B2) is what all my research comes up with. So, the standard power plant that makes about 85 horses with the DPFI on it, and about 105 with the Si MPFI. The HF fuel system is a dinky, straw sized MPFI system; my throttle body is probably sub-45mm diameter (really I ought to measure that tomorrow; I have all the airbox apart, it would be easy and I want to know) So I have an intake manifold with narrow runners and a narrow opening feeding a motor that breathes much more than what "should" be there. On top of that, the double-D shaped ports of my intake manifold are much smaller both in height and in width than the ports on the head, so theres a very very VERY high velocity through the intake manifold and then an anti-reversionary step keeping all that inertia within the port forcing airflow. **This post started as a PM that got WAY too long to actually send. This part was sort of directed at the person I was originally talking to, but I let it stand as is. If you can pretend I am talking to you, then great; if you don't naturally see the points I mention, ask** Now, the tradeoff is naturally, inability to breathe at high RPMs. Well, Honda thought of that. The stock redline is 5500 RPM!! not because of rotational speed constraints (a honda motor that cant hit 6K? are you daft?) but because the motor wouldn't make power there. So at 5500 my fuel cuts anyhow. The car actually has an upshift light tthat comes on whenever I have stopped accelerating and failed to shift, or when I am not accelerating hard enough to justify the RPMs, etc.. I haven't fully analyzed what makes it come on but so far it just seems to come on when its time to shift APPARENTLY I can put a chip in my ECU and run Hondata, a tuning program that makes the computer as good as a megasquirt according to my brother... Some larger injectors, and maybe some head work to open the ports up a *tad* right at the manifold flange, but leave the port volume the same right at the valve (in other words, set up another velocity "ramp" between manifold flange and valve face) and then maybe some hybridized inlet manidfold where I take like, an Si plenum and runners and graft them onto the last 1/4 of the HF runners (okay the intake manifold is crazy but its all vague notions of a "goal" that I may or may not work towards anyhow) would probably spell the "ideal" iteration of this motor... I am sure you see the ideas I am getting at, because they are all analogs of the L20/LD/TonyD/Twin Plate TB threads that have been going on here in the past year or so... This car kinda showed up at a time when it made all of those loose strings into a rope that I just tugged on and found was strong in my mind. **End of that sort of personalized part** Lazy copy edit FTW The gear ratio for the trans and the diff: HF 3.25 1.65 1.03 .82 .69 3.15® HF (49 states) 2.95(!) Yes, a honda with a sub 3:1 diff ratio and TWO overdrive gears in the tranny! photobucket: http://s130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/tardaeron/CRX/ [/indent][/indent] The trailer hitch was just absolutely priceless!! The car is fairly rust free with a couple VERY small cancer spots, and some rusty bolts and threads. The "Good" side: afar: Underhood rattlecan: Power by: Old Front Glass: New Front Glass: Front Section: Now, today I painted a battery tray, cleaned the rust under the battery tray in the engine bay (minimal and superficial) and primered and rattlecanned that section of the engine bay; cleaned and detailed the airbox and its bolts (the bolt heads on this car are somehow rusty like they've lived in a swamp buggy their whole lives; the rest of the car is fine, rust free, and the threads aren't that bad, just the heads?!?) and dropped the front frame crossmember, wirebrushed and primered and painted IT. The rest of the front clip (radiator cross bar etc) was painted red a couple days ago, and by Thursday most of it should be going back together. I still need to get a pogo stick and finish pulling some bends out of the driver side radiator upright to get it all into the right position though. This car was COVERED with a thin coating of a moldy, algae-like residue that settles into cars that sit around in the swampy areas down here for too long.. I cleaned the engine bay three times and now I have it all torn apart again for paint and plastic detail work Thus far: Car......500 Hood/Hatch.....150 (generous amount added for JY prices plus paint and supplies that overlap onto alot of other stuff) Windshield.......230 Bumper bar, misc bolts and screw retainers from Honda......120 Headlights.......50 Radiator........60 misc. Junkyard items (lic plate holders, light sockets, relay, brackets, etc)....50? Lets say 100 for good measure. So just over $1200, and I have a buddy who will help me spray the exterior panels on the hood, hatch, and fender, so maybe another $100 in paint and clear to be done with it all. This car is going to be one SWEET little gas sipper... More updates to come!

Righteous Indignation!!!! Epithet!! EPITHET INVOLVING SOMEONES MOTHER!

I am talking about the first page that wholly failed to display for me last night before I rebooted and then magically appeared just now after I went back to confirm that you only posted four pages. I was wrong; you posted the whole thing, but Firefox on my machine has been playing stupid games with the cache, and not always loading every last image on a page, and I haven't figured out how to get my machine running properly. I think I need to do a fresh install of windows etc. NOW.. off to read that first page I didn't get to see last night.

I am pretty sure I have seen the 240Z/28 Hot Rod article that was mentioned, and I think it was a 350 into a 240Z conversion article, not a comparison of the two. (At least, I know I saw a 70s Hot Rod Magazine with an article of a similar title. A buddy of mine had about 1500+ 70's Hot Rodding mags and fished about four or five out for me because they were about Z cars.) However, I rather enjoyed the article you posted, more than I did the V8 conversions! Do you also have the first page (with the rest of the "Opener" shot of the 240Z in it?) and if so could you post that with the last page when you do? Thanks!

Well, I just bought 1991 Honda CRX HF around Christmastime, and it has had the longblock replaced with a more standard civic 1.5, but still has the HF intake manifold, injectors, and ECU. The short version is, the intake ports on my manifold and on the stock engine are about the size of a quarter (slightly smaller) and the head on the engine now is more like the size of a 50 cent piece, so the manifold is a MAJOR bottleneck.... in one sense. Putting it another way, it is a high velocity inlet manifold with a significant anti-reversionary step at the head flange. The ECU cuts fuel at 5500 RPM anyhow, so high RPM power isn't just "not my concern," its a non-issue! The end result on my Honda is a BEAST that is most assuredly quicker than the stock powerplant, and it feels like driving a Mustang! 45mph in first gear is crazy, and 60mph in fifth at 1800 RPM in a Civic is also crazy! The car hasn't gotten registered yet, so I do not have a MPG figure to compare to the stocker's 45mpg, but I suspect I didn't lose much. If you are interested, (and I have not yet told you in another thread or something) I could send you a PM with some more of the details on my Honda; it seems our goals are largely the same regarding this build for you, and the honda for me.

You might want to consider using an intake manifold with a runner diameter slightly larger than your intake valve to help keep overall velocity on the increase as the air/fuel approaches the head? Then again, I may be thinking more in an EFI realm, but I wanted to subscribe here, too, so I thought I would comment and risk foot-in-mouth.

What sort of head/block/displacement combo are you running for your engine again? I can't recall.. What about spark? What are you doing for that with your megasquirt? Honestly, the stock L28E had 170 flywheel horsepower, and that was with a restrictive intake manifold and an archaic fuel system. Don't overlook the "real" modifications already made to your car; internal work and a hottter cam would certainly help, but you have begun at the end. Remember, your Horns are Magical, so they just might manage to make 450 horsepower as a bolt-on to your otherwise stock motor....

gary: they show up just fine for me; one thing I have found that helps with situations like that is to hold shift, then hit the "refresh" button on my browser. It is also good to go clear out all your cookies and browsing history once in a while to help keep odd problems like that from cropping up.

word, I'm living up in palm beach gardens right now, by blue heron and military, and I deliver pizza for Papa John's out in Royal Palm. One of these days I MUST see it; "uncompleted" is the LAST thing I would consider to be a problem. "driving" is "finished" in my "book" :)

ooo.. you may be on to something. Where in South Florida are you? I would LOVE to see that 240SX!!

For the record, I took a stab at what size open topped tank you could make in the ground by cutting up a 55 gallon drum. I was contemplating the idea of getting into cast-netting finger mullet and reselling them to a bait shop; go out, net bait, take them home to a holding tank, sell the store X dozen Y times per week... But, if you cut the ends off of a drum, then cut the drum into four "quarter pipe" sections, and assemble those in a square, then lay some plywood and fiberglass down in the corners and on the bottom, and set it all in the dirt, you wind up with a SURPRISINGLY high volume tank. If the barrel is say, three feet tall and has a radius of a foot, then you have a five foot square opening and a three foot square flat floor, and a tank about a foot deep. Obviously, you could sink it deeper, but at about a foot deep (25 sq ftx1ft=25cu. ft) you get ~190 gallons. I was suprised.

BUT at the same time... this thread LONG aog started dancing with breaking the "hybrid" rule, and it IS a rule of this forum. The rule is in place to keep people who say "Hey, I am putting a V8 in car #000087" from getting "OMG YOU TARD!!!1!!1!!!" Obviously this thread is a "what should I do" thread, and the two opinions should get hashed out, but I think that enough has been said at this point for keeping the car original. Lets just let the OP and owner of the vehicle decide. Chances are if the young man's dad has owned this car for 38+ years and hasn't modded it beyond recognition, then Junior probably won't get crazy either. (OP: no age-condescending there, just phrasing it the right way)

I know you are more concerned about the steering angle, but from what I could gather about the Soobie mod, it was essentially the same thing; shortened steering knuckles, decreased radius, so the linear action of the rack results in a greater angle of wheel movement... the quick steering knuckles would both increase steering reaction, and angle. Both come at a tradeoff of steering effort, and that tradeoff adds up rather quickly.

or you could call it a "Third" generation ZX (333)

Thats one of the reasons they are so successful in sportscar racing; it is easy to self-correct, so a mediocre to poor driver with stones the size of South Dakota can outperform an excellent driver in a less forgiving vehicle, who has a wife and kids to think about. Regarding the previous post... http://www.thezstore.com/page/TZS/PROD/PSDC11/23-4181 Quick steering knuckles. The tradeoff is, much more difficulty turning the steering wheel than stock. The shorter you go, the more steering effort required.

Bitchin, thats definitely the good way to go

I think that FAR too often, this reality is overlooked.. Computer simulations are used because they are easy to manipulate without consequences; carve out your chambers in CAD, it only takes restoring a backup if you made a mistake. Carve out your chambers in reality, and if its wrong, well.. get the devcon!! It is good to see that reality and the CAD simulation seem to reflect each other fairly closely. Now, if only more of us had access to five axis CNC mills that we could CNC port our cylinder heads with...

Don't let yourself get trapped into mimicking the BRE cars.. there is ALOT you can do with some red and some blue on a white car that pays homage to the BRE heritage, and TOTALLY still looks BRE that is more than simply two diagonal parallel stripes on the front quarter. Whatever you do, it looks great, and its *always* nice to see another rustoleum job; encouraging, if you understand my drift.

28K on my odometer, and that bugger just keeps creepin up there. Still spinnin those tires, though I wasn't surprised to see the poll; I have been surprised to see a bunch of kids younger than myself CONTINUE to join, buy, and become a part of this car's legacy. STOP IT!!!! This stuff is supposed to be getting super CHEAP for us at this point!!! you are eating up my car's retirement parts collection!

I am 28 years old. Before I turned three, I can remember riding around with my dad on sunday mornings when the rest of the family was in church (the old man is going to hell, heh) riding around in the Z (72 240) drinking chocolate milk and apparently (I have no recollection of this detail) going "vroom vroooom." My dad had moved to NC two months before my third B-day, and we followed him about a month after my B-day, so I was definitely 2+ years at the time. So, that 72 was totalled by a ten point buck up in NC. My dad has since owned a 70, an 83 turbo, and an 86, all five speeds, all two seaters. My oldest brother had a 74 for a while as a teenager (at one point it was "mine" but it was a parts car by then) and an 82 for some time, youngest bro had an 86 for a while, and now my oldest and younger brothers co own a 240 racecar, and then tehres my uncle's cars. So Datsuns have been my lifeblood from before Day One. So, I never had a car through high school because I didn't work enough, and I spent too much of my money on immediate funstuff to save for a vehicle. For graduation, my family all chipped in a few hundred bucks and got me a 92 Geo Storm hatchback. My reactions at the time were simultaneous: "They got me a CAR!!!" and "But its a GEO!!!" I loved that little Geo, but after a year it had gone through three timing belts, I had replaced the crank sprockets and woodruff key, and the sprockets and key had become worn again. 170K miles is, apparently, all a Geo has in it. So, I was looking at saving some cash for a CRX or maybe a Mazda MX-3, or something along those lines, with a STICK shift instead of the godawful slushbox. I barely knew how to drive a stick at the time, but that never changes until you get your OWN car with a manual transmission. Then, my baby showed up ON MY CORNER for $300. The guy two houses down was selling it to make back some money the owner owed him. It had a stripped out ignition switch (screwdriver key) and a four speed shift knob on it. I sat in it dickering with the shifter, and pushed it through the gears. Sure enough, no fif----WAIT A SECOND, its a FIVE speed!! okay, time to go see if I can borrow $100 from my dad.... Nothing since then has matched the excitement, anticipation, and sheer joy that I felt in the day or two between deciding to buy it, and actually owning it. So, I figured I would finish this post off with another paragraph that begins "So."

I have a question for you. When was the last time you drove a 2400 pound car that had 300 horsepower? 250 horsepower? Now, a suggestion.. Put an electronic ignition on your car. Get some performance needles for your SU carburetors. Then, do springs, struts, new bushings, get some nice wheels and tires, and see how much you like a measly 140-150 horsepower in the car. Then see if you REALLY need more than twice that much power, and go from there. At this point, you will have a one owner 240Z that has had nothing substantial done to it to take it from stock. Of course, thats depending on how wild you go with the suspension modifying, but REALLY there is only one good direction to go, so any mods you make will not be looked at with regret by anyone in the future unless they are SUPER purist, and really, those guys are gonna cry anyway. Seriously... Whatever the fastest car you have driven, I would bet it weighs almost half a ton more than the 240Z. If the car weighed 3100 pounds (brand new corvettes, say) that is almost 33% more mass than the Z, so to have the same ratio the Z does STOCK it would have to have ~225 horsepower. If the car weighs say, 3500 pounds, (firebird/camaro/mustang) then you are looking at needing about 300 horsepower. Now, compare it to a Z with a high powered stock engine, and you get 300 horses to 2400 pounds, your 3100 pound car needs ~450 horsepower (hey look, right about what the new vettes COME with!) and your 3500 pound car needs over 550 horsepower, almost 600. Weight is horsepower, and more.

http://forums.hybridz.org/search.php?searchid=3083741

Original post deleted in entirety; total brain fart. So if increasing the amperage speeds this job up, what DOES increasing the voltage do?? Would it compensate for a larger mass of combined electrolyte/cathode/anode?

Its always great to get a thanks for simply dropping a clue off where it was needed I read here FAR more than I *do* on my Datsun, but at least it serves a purpose in helping others with random bubbles of information at the right time. Searching for the details should be a breeze, but I would agree that for "the time being" your stock tranny will hold, and it will probably hold alot longer than "the time being." The trans upgrade is (like many MANY other upgrades for the S30 Z) nice but really, not that necessary. Nissan built us one hell of a little car.

Are you certain that the wetsanding between the coats with the rustoleum job isn't a step that helps the paint adhere together into one strong coating? I would have to go back and re-evaluate alot of what I have read about that technique, but I was somehow under that impression... if it is just for looks, then I am SUPER GLAD to hear your comments about no wetsanding in between, because as you said... racecar paintjob!! Its there to be used, not to look super pretty. As long as its pretty, its pretty good!!!!