Tony D
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Posts posted by Tony D
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Josh, you ever look at the TBI injector holders for a 5.0 Ford in the early 80's... You have a "robust" injector clamping setup there..... LOL
Nice manifold, you bastard!
Yet someone else using the 'anecdotes' on GrapeApeRacing...
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It will. It won't be pretty, and if you have no welding experience it will suck and you'll need to practice a lot. Search craigslist first for a used lincoln or miller welder around the $300-400 price range
Much as I love the HF Stuff, I'd skip the wire feed welders and spend the money on a Lincoln, Miller, or Marquette (or ESAB)... And the note about used is well advised, you see guys selling these all the time at those prices, and many times you get a full setup and in some cases can run a few beads at their place before taking it. Usually someone buys a small one, and ends up buying a bigger 220V unit quickly thereafter (when you get a good one and get good results...) You see a lot of HF Boxes out there used as well, and when going to check on them, you see a lot of small Millers and Lincoln's!
"Skip the intermediate first step and start out right!" LOL
Anybody have experience with the small HF Inverter TIG boxes? Haven't tried those by my past experience on the Wire Feeder left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Having a small 110V TIG for sheetmetal and small stuff really would fit my needs opposed to firing up the 300A CyberTig....that I can't exactly plug in on the back porch!
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Yeah, scratch and dent was a OLD holdover from old school. Now, if the package was opened and someone tried installation lawyers say "can't sell it as new or you're going to get sued and lose your business" so almost anything that is returned, even if it wasn't opened, even if you paid a 'restocking charge' likely goes into some sort of write off bin.
Check the cel expiration date, some of this stuff (like seat belts) expire in certification. For the price, especially if you don't need certification, its looking very attractive!
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On the tailshaft housing, that seems like a lot of work compared to putting a new driveshaft with Ford Yoke (and Ford Spline on the Clutch Disc) and making an adapter for the crossmember mount. Why do you need a Nissan Tailshaft? For shifter positioning?
It's good to know the Ford T5 pattern fits the Nissan Bellhousing. When JeffP ordered his Tremec TKO, we had to weld tabs on the Nissan Bellhousing and weld meat into other spots to allow drilling and tapping proper patterns to allow it to bolt up, And on that I think he just put a yoke on the driveshaft he was having made.
But with a stock setup, and no plans to run 400+ HP, why not replace like for like.
Synchros not totally engaged could be due to that bent / sheared shift fork... Would explain the popping into and out of gear as well. Incomplete engagement of the synchro will "pop" in and out.... Worn Synchro will do it, but you can usually hold it in gear with a bungee-cord force pretty easily. But if the fork was in the wrong place, or moving....
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The input bearing is not in the bellhousing. That is the THROWOUT bearing and usually emits a high pitched squeal directly opposite the times you say you hear your low rumbling noise.
What you explained was classic input gear noise. It can't be related to syncros as they are not rotating when IN gear, and the car NO moving. In fact, they aren't moving unless the car is moving. and then, there is no relative motion.
A Counter Gear Bearing would make noise at a different time, and could be detected from the input bearing by declutching while coasting down.
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I do that regularly, there is a measurable difference, but in that instance you are venting to high pressure, not as effective as a smaller hole to lower pressure (Like the stock ZXT BOV in #4 Runner).
If you can find the 1/4 mile comparo Norm S. did on leaving his hood OFF the latch while drag racing. It's more of an effect of air pressure relief in that instance and it's disconcerting to have the hood halfway open at the big end of the pass doing 12 second passes! But it worked. I would say the holes into the firewall are more efficient in venting than merely cracking the hood (though I do run cracked in the summer.)
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Short form Nigel,
The Tropical wasn't engineered for hot start issues per-se. It was a system change to address ambient issues to the entire system. The coolant hasn't changed since they were designed. Same EG 50/50 or whatever...
The Emissions issue is moot, regarding the tropical thermostat. I swear, guys, for the last and final time, OPERATING TEMPERATURE OF THE TROPICAL THERMOSTAT SATISFIES ALL SENSORS ON THE VEHICLE IN REGARD TO ENABLING EGR/CLOSED LOOP ON ZX'S/THERMAL VACUUM SWITCHING.... Nowhere has it been said that a functioning vehicle needs to change anything. But if you aren't functioning....and haven't changed it....consider it. The changing of the thermostat is to prevent runaway overheating due to nucleate boiling which IS a known problem in these vehicles. Asked another way: Why is it in the parts catalog if it's not necessary? Why offer three different ranges and designate them? Why? This is EXACTLY what I referred to in KTM's case. No matter what, in SoCal he was experiencing runaway overheating. No hot start issues, but come off a highway and go to an onramp sitting at idle and BOOM! Put in the 160...it goes away. YES, you could put a 24psi cap on there and accomplish the same thing... But at what cost (heater core leaks, radiator leaks, etc.... never know.... lower the temp or boost the pressure cooker's pressure. Lets not address Boston using this analogy.)
As for your location and your temperatures, please review my studies on East Coast / West Coast. The aerosols in the atmosphere east of the Rockies (more as you head east) contains progressively more aerosols filtering UV to a greater extent. The thermal layers the radiator passes through on a 90F Toronto Day trucking up the QEW (from my trip through on the way to the Zedaway, 2001) were around 98-103F. Compare this to the 85F day in Baker CA with a 120-130F Thermal Layer. The exchange you get through the radiator from the cooling flow is less. I forget the approach temperature of the radiator...10/20F over cooling medium, you see that on a 90F Toronto day, with a set rise across the engine (or set outlet temperature of XXX) you get interesting results. With a 100F thermal layer, the best you can expect out of the radiator is 110/120 with the given approach. With the median of 125F thermal layer at 85F (less) ambient in CA, the best you will get out of that same radiator is 135/145.... if you have BTU input to get a 30 F rise across the engine, you are fine in Toronto at 90 (120+30=150, plenty of margin), but getting much closer to thermal issues (145+30=175). This assumes stasis, and at that temperature one would have a thermostat closing quite a bit (a 160 180 190 thermostat would not be open at those conditions in Toronto) but in CA you have a 160 thermostat well open and flowing, the 180 or 190s wouldnt be open. Get it a bit hotter and you can see where people got runaway overheating in the desert southwest.
When the engine bay temp starts rising, it affects other things. Fuel in rails can boil (low pressure vapor lock in the 240's and 260's.) Heat soak in later vehicles.
"The only thing that I've found that helps my hot start issue is by manually running the radiator fan after shut-down for a few minutes. "
Pushing the heat out of the engine bay accumulated there -- others accomplish this by cutting two 3" holes to vent the engine bay to the inner fenders under the battery and the Master Vac. Putting those holes near the firewall to low pressure area evacuates a HUGE air-dam created at speed, and DRAMATICALLY reduces underhood temperatures. As much as you reduce the underhood temperatures from going from 82 to 72 and then some more! And its great if your racing class allows it (mine does not.) Some people would say put some pancake fans on those holes and have them activate above XXX Degrees and issues go away. These cars heat dam under the hood. The 'competition hood vent' was a vapor lock solution because of excess underhood temperatures. Cutting a hole in the hood was a last ditch way to get the heat out. Prior to that... well, read the Flat Top Service Brochures you will see there were several other steps to take before resorting to the hood vent. It's posted online, I'm pretty sure. I'll let you find those "prior steps".
Until this time, we were discussing stock vehicles and stock vehicle dynamics (with the reference to KTM hitting that runaway situation since it was posted here and very well documented as opposed to anecdotal comments. A guy with instruments without a solution who tried all the fancy stuff and couldn't get the answer. Tried the basics, and it went away.) If you get into modified engines, then there are myriad of control variables introduced. I know JeffP's car has no hot start issues, nor overheating now, even when making 470HP 5 minute dyno pulls. But that engine is not stock in induction, nor cooling system...it's listed in the cooling sticky.
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There WAS, just not on LHD Cars....
The 69-73 RHD (S30) systems used the same Sanden on the 260 and 280Z's. The York is a US-Based conversion, it's stock on a Ford, but clearly aftermarket on a Nissan. The newer pumps have better efficiency. Really the pump from a Geo Metro is more than big enough to run the system in a Z....and about the size of the Z's AIR Pump! Nice compact little unit. It cycles "on" slightly longer, but that can be countered with a larger accumulator. The 'hit' you take when it comes on is less, obviously since it's a lower HP unit.
What you get with longer throw, you get more displacement at the same speed given same cylinder size. That means it takes more HP. The newer systems using rotary pump technology use smaller units that impact the HP drain on the engine less (hence Geo Metro) but run longer. As with any compressor the more capacitance (accumulator/receiver size) the SMALLER the compressor you can use for a given load.
A bigger compressor doesn't necessarily cool faster. You can only use so much coolant through the evap to cool it to 35 and then hold. So with the FO system, that's pretty much set. You cycle the pump on and off to get the accumulator to a set pressure for feeding through the orifice at that given rate. A smaller compressor runs longer, but uses less power doing so. A bigger compressor sucks hp, and then shuts off. Your pressure switch or cutout based on temperature better be accurate or indeed you will overpresurize, over cool, and likely freeze up the AC Evap in the car. You are better going smaller on the pump. As long as it shuts off occasionally, it's big enough!
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Sounds like the shift forks are loose on the selector rods from aggressive shifting and now they slide the selection cones randomly. But to address it in turn:
I have a 83 280zx turbo with the Borg Warner T5. Ive considered the routes of putting in a wc t5 (too much customization) wow!, going the nissan 5 speed route (rather not) O.Keeey, and just going to the junkyard and getting a t5 out of another 280zx (i feel safer knowing i have a freshly rebuilt one) At least you could open it up and compare it to see what's bad in yours! AAmco usually can order in one fer ya... got $1500?. If the WC conversion is too much customization, the Z32 Box conversion requires bit of a 'customization' -- probably moreso than a WCT5
Story:
My 3-4 syncro assembly is bad. When driving home it got harder and harder to shift into 3rd and any gear for that matter This is not a 3/4 Synchro, "any gear for that matter" means dragging clutch disc, or pins on the rods allowing the shift fork fingers to move but not positively...they can slip so may not get the thing into the gear it's supposed to be in. I got home driving in 1st down my street. Then when i stopped the car and put it into neutral, all i heard was a clicking clacking sound as the car was sitting in neutral.Sounds like bearings knocking about without cages, open it up and take a look. I stepped on the clutch and the sound disappeared.That moves it to the INPUT SHAFT BEARING It would come back as i eased off the clutch then finally it somehow slapped into gear(the noise also stopped) though the shifter was in neutral and i quickly pressed back down on the clutch.Then you weren't in "N" but in gear. Sure sounds like a shift fork slipping. I eased off the clutch again to learn the car was in gear and i couldn't get it out.Sounds like a shift fork sheared the pin holding it to the selector rod. I took apart the transmission to find that the part that is supposed to slide around over the 3/4 syncro was hard to budge. after some very manly hours i was able to push it loose. I lifted the keys and saw some metal shavings inside and it was really difficult to press in the keys and slide the part around.Well, that justifies replacing the 'ground up parts'! now that the transmission itself was in neutral i rotated the shafts to see if the transmission was in neutral and it was until it would randomly grab into gear and let go.At this point, it hasn't occurred that with the selector in "N" but you still being in gear means something is Sheared/Bent dealing with the shift selector rods and the fingers going over the synchro selector? I checked the gears rotation ratios and determined it to be 3/4. Huh?
Symptoms:
Noise from Transmission Bad Bearings
Car hard to shift Define 'Hard' and 'How' the shifter is physically hard to move? Like something is dragging?
Transmission suddenly goes into a gear Disconnected Shift Finger rattling around pushing selector internally engaging synchros randomly. Or mechanical jamming of internal parts giving the appearance of being in gear, but not really. A seized pilot needlebearing does something similar making you think you have a clutch problem because it won't 'disengage'...
Cant get car out of gear Disconnected Shift Finger rattling around pushing selector internally engaging synchros randomly, or jammed/seized component.
Shifter still in neutral Sheared Pin in Shift Finger to Selector Rod, or Bent Shift Fingers
TheoryThis appears to me that the noise was possibly the keys having trouble going into gear.No, when the noise goes away with the clutch its an input shaft bearing going bad--classic symptom. The car got into 3rd and was hard to shift out because the syncros are bad.No, it shifts hard because the guide rod pin is sheared and you are physically sliding the selector rod through the interference fit in the shift finger (or bending something) until it disengaged. Hard to shift into ANY gear could be EVERY synchro being bad, but this is rarely the case unless you ran the bad oil and ate them all up...It's possible, but not probable It randomly went into gear as performed when turning the shafts in neutral.? "Randomly going into gear" or mechanical binding of failed components internally jamming the assembly and allowing the shaft to turn? Shifter was in neutral meaning the forks held the parts in the neutral position but the gears were still in 3rd which could be explained by the spin test aswell since the gears were in that position and it would randomly grab into gear. Or that something is bent or a pin was sheared allowing the shifter to assume a false position, or again internal jamming of parts allowing friction to grab the shaft and allow it to turn.
Solution And Question:
Will this rebuild kit work for our (nissan) T5?Ask the Seller i posted a question to the seller as well but it says he is away till august.....Huzzah! August is almost here! Be Patient or go get another tranny from the JY. The brand for the item is Tremec and as most of you would know is the company that took over the T5 from Borg Warner. This kit goes for pretty cheap compared to my googling of syncro assemblies. Any suggestions are welcomed except those saying "just go with nissan 5speed, or get a mustang t5 or any of that" Suggestions should be on the line of "you should buy from here it's cheaper and better" or "i dont think that is your problem, your problem actually is....". I havent seen many topics on rebuild kits (i seen a few but they target one seller that sells a rebuild kit for $250... which is pretty hefty. If those are hefty prices, skip AAmco, and the idea of getting a 'freshly rebuilt' unit for your car. Junkyard is your only option at this point, and since you are unwilling to accept any alternates, you look to be SOL. Most guys selling T5's in SoCal seem to be asking $400 for JY Pullouts, so looks like you're crawling the hotline looking for a compatible T5 to replace your bodged up box. I'm with Yasin on the suggestion to just run the Nissan N/A box. FAR easier to source and you aren't willing to pay the price for any of the three T5's in my storage container (besides, I'm not expected back until January...) -
"We're still left with two potential fixes for the hot start problem. A cooler than recommended thermostat (deviation from the FSM instructions based on Tony D's advice) or a cooling fan (modified from the factory ZX fan scheme, to blow air directly on to the injectors). Both deviations from factory, and apparently both work. A choice."
This indicates a structural impasse due to lack of comprehension and obsession with disregarding sound logical approach. Words mean things and you simply can not grasp the fact that 160F thermostat is NOT 'cooler than recommended' on a 90F day! It doesn't OPERATE at 160F. There ARE proper, logical steps to problem solving. Skip steps, you end up with problems. I make a good living going back to the BASICS daily, and correcting shadetree bandaid fixes by people who used anecdotes or poor observation to solve THEIR problem, and then applied it to someone else's issue which LOOKED similar. I merely lay out the parameters and logic for someone else. You wanna disagree, go ahead. You haven't offered ANYTHING other than 'it worked in my case" (anecdotal.) Moreover, you haven't done anything but (like a pair of croaking frogs) said "it won't work, didn't work for me"---who is to say it isn't EXACTLY as I have offered and a fuel issue in your case? No supporting evidence, no checks, no showing of the work or troubleshooting leading up to the conclusion of WHY it works "in your case".... More important, no refutation that SUNLIGHT causes Hot Start issues as it only happened on MY car during the day time, never at night.... This is the line of thinking you bring to the conversation. Please, a little more thought, less supposition!
"Even better, in addition, explain what the Nissan engineers were thinking, if you know, for context."
I've done that, repeatedly, but as stated in the previous paragraph you choose to malign my intent and my discussions with them on this subject (as well as others in the aftermarket...)
I ALSO proffered the following: LEAKING FUEL PUMP CHECK VALVE (especially for someone who has hot-start issues in winter when an injector cooling fan was left not running...) and have mentioned several other avenues of approach.
It is obviously now a fishing expedition for a reaction for some reason. And I'm done with this dead-end conversation. When you get someone who simply can't understand what you're telling them (or worse, chooses to disagree just to make a scene and add nothing other than contradiction), and then consciously chooses inflammatory words and misstatement of prior topics covered exhaustively, you only have to question what their pathetic motivations are. Sad, truly sad.
I head to the control panel now...
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As Post #10 pointed out, this has been covered before, I was being tangentially-polite in my prior contributions.
Having your head on a swivel, and learning to DRIVE your car is the BEST safety YOU can provide for yourself.
If you depend on a mechanical device to provide your safety, it will fail, and you WILL be disappointed.
To a man, almost everybody I have talked to after an accident can review something in their driving they could have done leading up to the accident, to have avoided or lessened it's impact to a great degree.
EVERYBODY needs to learn to drive in a 1960's VW Microbus. You learn patience. You learn NOT to tailgate. You realize it's YOUR legs hanging out there between nothing, and the most substantial axle beam on the planet, and you rearend someone....you better reach enlightenment and levitate in the Lotus Position BUT QUICK if you want to keep your legs attached.
Everybody thought hippies were into Eastern Religion for esoteric reasons, I can attest, you did it as 'accident mitigation' training driving to and from The Dead concerts!
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The "Stock 240Z" AC parts are pretty obvious.
Sad to say, unless you bought a RHD 240, you don't have a "STOCK" setup. AC was only stock on RHD models. 260Z and Later models had several options, FACTORY AIR, PORT INSTALLED AIR (both the same units) and DEALER or AFTERMARKET INSTALLED AIR the dealers could use the NISSAN kit, which was the same as the factory, or the port...or choose an aftermarket kits from ARA, Frigiking, or other vendors. The main difference was the Nissan kits had the evaporators IN the dashboard being pressurized by the blower fan, while aftermarket kits put the evaporator UNDER the dash on the suction side of the blower fan. In fact, any 260/280Z can have the Factory Air installed by following the directions in the FSM, which had a section specifically dedicated to the conversion. The majority of the arrangements came with pneumatic controls on these kits, though some retained the wire-operated controls and not the vacuum diaphragm controls. I'm not sure where those were installed (port or dealer.) I like the wire actuated units, same components as non AC cars, save for the faceplate and switch for the compressor being integrated in the faceplate. If you have a York Recip, but in-dash evaporator on a later car (260/280) chances are good you will have the wire actuated controls and someone was mixing and matching parts to make a system up. All the Nissan stuff used the Sanden Rotary Pump under the distributor.
Anything you have in a LHD 240Z Vehicle, you are dealing with 'aftermarket' A/C. Depending on who installed it, and whether or not they followed the manufacturer's instructions placement of some stuff and vary quite a bit. Some aftermarket installers bodged the job pretty good, others it looks almost factory.
The passenger side components inside the car would be the evaporator assembly that hangs under the dash into the footwell area. I have seen the A/C switches utilizing the unused stock location rockers, the small ARA-Style pod by the driver's knee, a toggle in the center console or steering column surround, or one that looks like the Hazard Switch that goes in the 'blank' opening on the dashboard. Keep in mind the ARA and Frigi-King units both used adjustable capillary temperature switches to control compressor cycling by Evaporator Outlet Temperature. Over the years people can tweak those switches, originally they were set with a stop to block the Evaporator outlet temperature to 35/36 Degrees F so you don't turn it into a block of solid ice....which they WILL do if your compressor cycles too long. Watch your center register temperature, you should easily get 36F center register temperature with the setup. The key is to not have ANY air sucked around the Evaporator bypassing it's cooling, or sucking air past the uptake gasket from the cowl, letting hot air into the cooled airstream diluting the efficiency of the unit.
Components in the engine bay are generally the same... compressor can be a York Reciprocating on a bracket that surrounds the fuel pump, or under the distributor with AIR Pump Relocation, or a Rotary in either location.
They aren't so bad if you get them set up right, with louvers on the hatch window, I was able to maintain 70 degrees in the cabin on a 103F day. I suspect if I had limo tint with proper UV rating, it would be even colder. The key to mine cooling so well was fixing those air bypass leaks. Center Register temperature dropped from 60's and low 70's to 35F. The gasket between to plastic housing to the fan inlet really was letting hot air in there---as that suction efficiency is lost, it doesn't pull air over the evaporator and it just doesn't cool worth beans! That's why factory AC's ALL use the fan pressurizing the evaporator into the cooling ducts.
Mixy-Matchy of the stock L28ET Sanden Rotary Pump will interface well with any aftermarket unit, you just need to get some proper lines fabbed at a local hose shop. I tend to like the hard lines used on the 260's/280's along with the stock condensor up front. That lets you use most of the later model engine bay stuff for a real finished look out there, and standard replacement parts... you then just need the conversion fittings to the hoses that go through the firewall into the evaporator under the dash. The stock ARA Switch and fuse setup will actuate the stock compressor clutch just fine. I've done countless units like this. A nice touch is you use the factory aluminum bracket for the compressor. If you are set on retaining the stock AIR setup, you will have to find the bracket from a 260Z with factory air, or any of the L4's with AC and AIR (I got one from a 79 510 Wagon, it's the same bracket...)
Good Luck!
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Agree with Leon, many of these carbs are old, and have worn out return springs. I was amazed at how definitively a new set of 44IDF's snapped shut compared to some I bought out of the JY in Japan years ago and which sat closed for 15 years... The internal springs are more than enough to close the individual carbs.
The problem after that (weak internal springs) is from the linkage being all synched together and something binding. A small square is your friend to set up your linkages to make sure they push STRAIGHT down and allow return STRAIGHT up without side-loading anything. The original linkage off the firewall was pretty much a weighted over-center design and which would snap closed reliably. But people 'fix' it and it starts binding. Keep it straight, the ball at the firewall CLEAN and properly lubricated, same for the pivots for the pedal bellcrank.
The choices for spring location are limited, and in many cases putting a spring onto the linkage at an angle COMPOUNDS binding. I had a DREADFULLY heavy pedal and binding issues. After getting into someone's car with NO return springs, and FLAWLESS return to idle I had to rethink the 'put a spring assist on it' thinking line. I went back and cleaned everything, made sure it was all STRAIGHT and there was no angular side-loading... and damned if it didn't start working lightly like originally designed!
Since then, I've gone to throttle cable which was more of an 'interchange quickly' decision, and have no return springs on the carbs whatsoever other than their internals, and the single Mikuni Return Spring on the crossbar. That spring was NOT used when I had a mechanical linkage, the overcenter of the original design seemed to be more than enough to close the throttles on their internal springs. I had to make my cable come STRAIGHT off the quadrant because having it at a 5deg angle (looked straight enough...what could it do?) from dead straight and it started having return to idle issues. That got the Mikuni spring reinstalled...but to unsatisfactory final effect. That's when I put the new fabricated bracket on to get it 'straight-straight'... In retrospect it probably would have been easier to slip the quadrant 2-3mm to line it up... Everybody has a Homer Moment! D'OH!
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What the long and short of what the above says is "I'm nailing down the KNOWN VARIABLES."
When someone says, 'it should not happen'---the way forward is to VERIFY the 'known variables' are within the acceptable data set, and IF SO, then begin the search elsewhere.
NOWHERE did I dispute fuel as a causatory factor. On several occasions I stated this. How it was missed I can't say, I thought I pretty much stated that very early in the conversation...
But what I see time and time again is people SKIP verification of the 'known variables' and go down a wild goose chase due to starting with poorly supported initial assumptions.
I thought I left quite a bit leeway in deciding how to repair it, I just tried to make clear the internet myth on the 160 (72C) thermostat was sorely mistaken...outright WRONG.
It was an attempt to keep people looking towards OEM solutions rather than reengineering components that were VERY well thought out indeed.
Much like HybridZ's Aerodynamic Testing, JeffP's Oil Temperature Testing revealed quite a bit about what is going on inside the engine. And what myths existed in regards to 'runaway' cooling issues. This is all covered more or less, in the L-Series Cooling Sticky in the FAQ.
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I tend to support my argument with technical background for the benefit of others reading. If people choose to think this means I talk or address people like they don't know what they are talking about, it is in their interpretation. Then again, statements of irrelevance belying what is stated tend to convey an image that people can judge for themselves. If you want to say it's an 'attack style' if you can't bring about a cogent counterpoint (you say looking for something new...this is thermodynamics, pretty basic stuff what "New Light" are we to expect?) perhaps consider the argument valid? I don't know, inferred intent is just that, and ad hominem is always a favorite to throw in on both sides. Someone CAN choose to observe these changes, or not. That's not 'ad hominem' that's simply a FACT. I see it daily in distribution training where guys working 20 years on the same equipment have VASTLY different comprehensions of what is going on internally, despite relatively close IQ's (they can test these things overseas, it's not illegal)... My teaching style has always been to call out to students attention things that they MAY not have observed. I've yet to have a class where someone has observed everything I have over the years, and in many cases the guys at the top of their respective companies all see the same things I do. Yes, they show me things they observe, and then we work together on them to understand what is happening. It does exist that people don't WANT to observe. They just take it topically, and go along happily with their assumptions. When they want to argue with someone who has studied things in depth...it usually isn't pretty.
For YEARS I have heard people say the SAME THING you did: The 160 F thermostat runs the engine 'too cool' or 'overcools' the engine.(you still refer to it as "Giving up temperature control"???) I have explained with both the actual unit conversions, and the main issue (from my viewpoint) on why this myth existed: The Thermostat Specification is to open at X and be fully open at X+10 degrees (DEGREES C, not Degrees F!!!). USING THE WRONG UNITS and applying the stated specification comes to the WRONG CONCLUSION. This is somewhat complicated for some people and it's my intent through thorough explanation and conversion to show WHY this is wrong and change that flawed reasoning. Anybody who reads it and comes away with the basic tenent that Nissan designed around Degrees C and NOT Degrees F will have made a big jump in understanding why a 160F (72C) thermostat is NOT 'overcooling' or 'runs it too cold'. The internet experts flaunt this line and flog it to death, and it's wrong. Remember, you said 'run the engine too cool' or something to that effect. That satement regarding a 72C thermostat is incorrect. Period. And I laid out why.
It IS wrong. It DOES convey the impression you do NOT know what you are talking about in this regard. And it is my intent through the explanation to point out this error, and why it is wrong.
If you choose to disregard this, and continue to make the same statement, you reveal more. Finally it looks like you came around. That is my sole intent. If you didn't change, then you would be revealing things which would be 'bad' in terms of learning. Such does not seem to be the case.
Your last comment does finally convey the point I have been making about the original design of the engine. I stated this earlier. As well as that the engine should not be having this problem at 91F, nor should yours during the winter on the two occasions when you didn't use the fan. From the start I've said look into it more. The guy weighing in from Texas doesn't get it. You do. In the end you concede the basic points I have made remain uncontested, and are in fact truthful commentary and suitable for others to consider before going forward. That is my intent. Unlike coming on spouting swarf like "Changing the thermostat won't fix the vapor locking (sic) issue, as it happens when the engine is not running, therefor (sic) no coolant is flowing." I have only a limited time to devote to basic automotive education (the difference between "Vapor Lock" and "Heat Soak"), he will have to search a bit more and get his terminology correct to know what he refers to and move forward from there. Ad Hominem? May well be, but it's an ignorant comment to make with absolutely no effort to assist anybody with understanding what is actually happening to cause the phenomenon. Your rebuttal to his remark is correct. It changes the starting point. If he can't see that, and discounts it entirely, what can I do? What can anybody do with someone unwilling to learn?
Our man in ABQ is onto it, and the statements from him only require small tweaks but the basics are there and I believe he will be fruitful in his quest... as he retains the flexibility to understand what is being discussed and not ham-hand a solution. The tweaks? Modern cars take into account fuel temperature, not just air and water as on ours. THAT is a BIG difference from the systems in place on these cars. The BTU content of the fuel changes CONSIDERABLY and this is a key to proper AFR. You will find consistent mileage tank-to-tank on CNG Vehicles as their pumps are temperature compensated for BTU content. But on most modern cars you will find consistent MPG, but Inconsistent Miles between Fillups because while the modern vehicle monitors Fuel Temp for BTU compensation and proper AFR, the pumps we use DO NOT. So pumping "hot gas" these days is identical to pumping 'hot gas' back in 1960. There is a resistance to temperature compensated liquid fuel pumps as it takes away a marginal profit margin in a thin margin business already. As to Optimum Temperature, it goes back to thermodynamics and basically the hotter you can run the engine the more 'efficient' it will be adibiatically. This, of course is limited by practical issues of oil selection, and insulation of the components from each other to prevent or promote energy recovery. One thing Caterpillar recently introduced on their big engines is a secondary turbine downstream of the turbocharger outlet which is coupled to a pinion gear and the flywheel through a fluid coupling (think torque converter)---it adds 3% of total horsepower of the engine from waste heat recovery on the turbine! That is significant, and a reason why a diesel is now closer to 50% efficient in terms of BTU input translated to useable torque as compared to Gasoline Engines which are far less efficient.
In the end, racers have known for YEARS the key to keeping the engine making power is to run it HOT. You must run a surfectant to get best transfer of heat, and at least a 24psi cap to combat nucleate boiling. There are PAGES of this discussion in the FAQ stickies at the top of the forums. There are some teams which have run higher pressure caps for one reason or another, to some positive effect, but I can not comment on them for various reasons.
As for the PS cooler, I donated a cooler from a 1977 Nissan Cedric, though I see tasty examples on late model Hondas which are usually packaged low and bolted to a front frame member very similar in dimensioning to our frame and cross members. The efficacy of the cooling depends on the thermal layer you can get the cooler into compared to the fuel temperature out of the engine bay. Immersion temperature sensors are preferred, but J or K Thermocouples with hose clamps securing them to the polished fuel piping and then wrapped with some self-fusing silicone tape to prevent air currents from affecting it's pickup of an accurate surface temperature work well, and at Omega.com you can pick them up with long leads, and CHEAP digital displays and rotary switches to flip between multiple thermocouples and utilize a single display. It helps also to have an enthusiastic 8 year old who wants to flip a switch and write down spaceship log readings on a long trip to get it done while driving with the least chance of impacting oncoming traffic! Fuel incoming 'ideal' is somewhat paradoxical as it should simply be 'the same'---that is the ideal! If it doesn't vary, then no adjustments are needed. If you want performance, generally ice cold fuel for maximum but throughput into the engine is used. But you can go the other direction with superheated fuels that are 'vapor phase' to get strange mileage accomplishments in lean-burn setups. Again, each is a 'system' with all components engineered to work together to that common goal.
Remember that later S130 ECU's (and I believe the S30 ECUS) used an external 'altitude switch' which leaned out the mix 7% when the contacts were either opened or closed. It was an aneroid bellows and once you hit a given altitude, it changed state and the input to the ECU changed the fueling output. There is your 'altitude density correction'... the MAF cars of course monitored PPH going into the engine, and PPH is PPH regardless of where you are! I have used that switch input in testing some times to tell what happens if I lean out 7%...
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I don't want to spend $26,000+ for daily transportation. A new car for a REASONABLE (under, WELL under, $10,000) so it can be a cash purchase and insured on PLPD from the get go keeping cost of ownership down... I ran around in 1.3 Renault Clios in the UK while I was there, and it was upmarket... a Basic 1.2 with today's engine technology and an easily accessible engine bay... FINE.
Little safety gear? FINE!
It's buy that, or buy an old Beetle, or a Geo Metro and drive that till it's time to replace it.
I want to tie my payments and cash up in other things that daily transportation.
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" If you don't know what moisture does when suddenly submerged into molten silver and flux, well neither did I. "
Ohhhhh, I know!
It's a bitch when craftsmen who have done it for decades are ignored by educated whiz kids who have plenty of theory but not a lick of common sense!
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That's just bitchen enough just to buy and stick in your garage just so you can say "well my wind tunnel tests indicate" waiting, just WAITING for someone to ask the question you WANT to answer: "You have your own wind tunnel?"
Why yes, yes I do matter of fact, Jetstream 5300!
LOL
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"Suddenly ahead of me, across the mountainside, a gleaming alloy air car shoots towards me two lanes wide."
You all realize the impetus for Neal Peart's lyrics were from a November 1973 R&T Short "A Nice Morning Drive"? It spoke of the motor law where the government mandated more and more safety equipment until cars could withstand 50mph head on collisions with 'usually' no occupant injury? These MSV's (one letter away from "SUV") lulled drivers into a trancelike state, unaware of their surroundings and blithely bumping off one another.
And then sinisterly coming up with the idea of "hunting" older non MSV vehicles. (Much like SUV's in Michigan were bumping and running imports off the road as sport....oh how prescient the story was!)
The more safety we build into our vehicles, the more incompetent the operators become... Stats are starting to bear that old thought out. Sadly, but they are. "Accident avoidance through superior maneuverability and acceleration away from a potential threat" was the original design philosophy of Nissan when designing the Z. It's the government that mandates Anti-Darwinist devices to perpetuate their voting constituencies...
The original short story can be read here, and was the inspiration for the Rush song (written by Peart) "Red Barchetta" that made it's debut on their album "Moving Pictures" :
http://www.mgexp.com/article/nice-drive.html
If you don't know "Red Barchetta" a link to the Lyrics:
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/r/rush/red+barchetta_20119966.html
Keep in mind the last line of the short story, and it's ominous portentions for us all...
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I've had a mixed bag with nepotism. When my bonus money and commissions were redacted so the owner could put his son and daughter on the payroll at $35K a year and give them another $25K fully-funded SEP.... Yeah, I had a problem with that. (Hint to arrogant business owners, SHRED your consolidated P&L's for the past five years, don't just dump them in the trash and assume 'the dirty grease-monkeys will empty the trash and not look"...)
Now, other times, I found kids such as Peter Coors Jr. (or was it the III?) stuck in a third sub basement of the brewery tasked with breaking down compressor coolers while having saturated steam leaks all around making for a nice "Sigourny Weaver Alien" Atmosphere... Sure it was only a summer internship, but as it was explained Adolf Apprenticed, his Grandfather Apprenticed, his Father Apprenticed, and HE was going to Apprentice in the same manner as they did so they knew every job in the brewery and every action from back office to distribution. That way, when someone called cornered you with a problem, they weren't just talking to some privileged suit who never worked the line. Everybody there admired "Junior" and the way he stuck to the hardest, dirtiest jobs in the maintenance department. And that's the way his dad told them to treat him "Run him like any other kid off the street. We need people here who know how to work!" It was the third day before one of the maintenance guys slipped and mentioned I was 'sucking up to the boss' son" with the way we were talking it up during breaks. kinda shocked me really, and gave me new respect for how they did things at Coors. Won't drink it, but I respect their process! After asking if it was true, Pete Jr. said it was and offered the above explanation, and said he thought it was a good idea as well. He may not be working in the third sub basement breaking down Atlas Copco Coolers... And likely he's making a lot more money now as well.
But I'd work for Pete Coors Jr ANY day as he knows what my job was. That other little prick...with $60K in salary and SEP who couldn't even empty the trash cans and sweep the shop? Bust him in the teeth if I could get away with it. Spoiled little a$$hole!
It was interesting seeing how the boss' wife got a raise from $35,000 to $375,000 in annual salary, and the kids got put on the payroll after Tim and I came to the business and expanded the service end from $1.5mm to over $4mm annually. While our commissions were eliminated, no raises... After 9/11 when there was NO WAY he could claim "Sales of New Equipment Carried this Company, not the Service Department" (I.E. My Superior Salesmanship) carried this company.... and our gross went from $4mm to just shy of $10mm it became hard to justify not giving us raises... But give them he did not. So we quit. And then he sued us. Because he had money. He lost, but that is nigh compensation ($1,100 in court costs returned) for the $10,000 spend on his bitter legal machinations.
Gas Truck. Accident. Tasting His Own Blood. -- Tragic Skiing Accident. Fully Concious But Unable to Move. Eaten Alive by Wild Animals.
The hate keeps me warm on cold, lonely nights.
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I can not discuss engineering principles with someone who refers to the Grape Ape Racing article on nucleate boiling as "an anecdote", and who clearly skips large swaths of discussion where clear mis-stating of them occurs in a subsequent comment. You say things I never said, and go all over the place with Oregon stats I said it OVER AND OVER AND OVER: if you're overheating there... YOU GOT SERIOUS PROBLEMS (as I have repeated time and time again, coming from the most serious overheating region of the USA...) What really does someone have to offer if he has not overheated, and studied it in depth? Don't overstate what I'v found, nor twist extreme examples offered into something that supposedly happens all the time (which you have done several times with my comments now...) I have ZERO overheating problems as well, in SoCal, and driving across the desert southwest. If you don't have overheating problems in Oregon how is that applicable to a guy who IS overheating in Oregon? Or any other southern state? If you want a topic to explore what YOU want to know ("What thermostat is BEST for my application?"), START IT, don't muddy the discussion of someone WITH a problem giving unrelated anecdotes and unsupported stories. It's interesting you search and find that INDEED a 1984 model has a 160F thermostat available.... seems maybe I speak the TRUTH on this subject? I didn't say anything to address OREGON and engines 'BEST' thermostat---I only addressed the issue of OVERHEATING ANYWHERE IT OCCURS.
Go do whatever shade tree approach you wish, don't muddy the waters for people who want to learn the truth on subjects. Exempting Oregon from the data set of the rest of the earth is as obtuse as calling the Grape Ape Site "anecdotal".... You could not have read it if you called it that. I can't see why, in Oregon, with no signs of Overheating whatsoever you would even CONSIDER running a 72C thermostat, you have a serious comprehension problem with what is being discussed and what has been stated SEVERAL times now... This post was for an individual WITH supposed "Overheating" problems. NOT about performance thermostats. NOT about 'THE BEST' thermostat to run. In fact, the thought of "Performance Thermostat" is once again a holdover from Domestic Performance Lore where guys put in 160F thermostats... but let's not even go there. I believe I said "FIX THE PROBLEM".... "3/4 Gauge" will normally elicit a 'did you use a meat thermometer to VERIFY THE TEMPERATURE?' response. As chances are good "3/4 Gauge" whatever that equates to, IS NOT "overheating" but more likely "Gauge Drift"! But to the core issue of vapor problems as originally stated the check valve is a very common cause (if searched) and IF it indeed is 'overheating' then that is a cause, but the 'overheating' needs to be addressed as the primary concern as one leads to the other, but not vice-versa (no hot restart will cause overheating, but overheating will cause hot restart issues...)
As to "Units are irrelevant":
The thought that a 160F thermostat opens at 160 and is fully opened "10 Degrees Later" by 170 is WRONG! It is an original 72C open by 82C (162 to 180F) is the ROOT of the ignorant internet engineers saying "the 160 thermostat overcools your engine and interferes with your EFI cold start and emissions" because they are predicated on 176F triggering (IN ACTUALITY 80C TRIGGERING POINTS BY DESIGN) -- I deal with this conversion BS all the time. The thermostat spec is 72C with a fully open specification 10C later. 10F IS NOT 10C and therefore I discount your dismissal of the importance of units---please THINK about these things, instead of taking such a topical approach. We were discussing DESIGN PARAMETERS. Nissan didn't design or specify in "F" they did so in "C"... UNITS ARE NOT IRRELEVANT! Ask the JPL guy who made a conversion error and missed MARS by a couple of million miles. What an incredibly obtuse statement to make. "The same reality" only applies if that reality doesn't impinge on L-Series Nucleate Boiling Tendencies in hotter climates. Which the upper ranges clearly do in hotter desert/southern climates! BRISK sales of 72C thermostats in Latin America... Does Oregon in his region have continuous temperatures below 0C for months on end? Maybe then an 82 or 85C thermostat is permissible or even necessary, but does it get warm? 91F = 32C, that's in the range where it is permissible to apply the 72C thermostat. Chances are it's FUEL RELATED (as stated several times previously, likely check valve, etc...)
If you are unwilling to expand your mind to different, more technical discussions and want to stick with anecdotes, only drive at night... because overheating is caused by sunlight. Every time I overheated, it was during the day, and the sun was out. I never overheated at night, therefore the sunlight causes my Z to overheat. This is somewhat akin to saying because your car in Oregon doesn't overheat using an 82C thermostat, that no car anywhere else will, either. The ONLY place you can make a statement like that is when you are in the HOTTEST portion and MOST SEVERE climates. I would not proffer advice on arctic operations living where I do currently, but in a long life and living in places that stay -40 (F AND C) for months at a time I can also do that. Don't hate for experience, dude!
Pharaohabq, absolutely it will help. Water Wetter and a 160F thermostat will significantly help with your 260's issues. My introduction to it was going to the ABQ Convention in our 260Z years back. NM is a little different that other parts of the DSW as the altitude contributes some other factors, not the least of which is altitude density which will affect further the cooling rejection of the radiator, and lack of UV Cover at high altitude like ABQ (those nice dark blue skies) make for one hell of a thermal layer, mixed with less dense air for cooling... Double Whammy! It's not uncommon when specifying electric motors in your region that 'bigger" motors or oversized cooling fans are called out to compensate for these factors (mostly altitude density) when desiring to keep the same shaft horsepower available for the equipment. Similarly aero design of centrifugal compressors are also tweaked to get the same delivery as required for the same application at lower altitude. Believe it or not, what we discovered was the effect of underhood temperature on return fuel. If you lower your thermostat to 160, the temperature of the fuel returned to the tank drops significantly. This helps with the vapor lock issue. But it's a given volume, eventually you reach a stasis point in the tank where decreasing tank volume no longer acts as an effective heat sink and the temperature starts rising. This even affects EFI systems without a fuel temperature sensor, throws AFR's all over the place if you start with 85F fuel, and end with 120F+ Fuel! A bodge we did on a 73 240Z was to convert a 1 gallon Coleman Water Jug to a 'fuel cooler' in the parking lot of the racquetball complex there in ABQ. Ran a coil of copper tubing inside, and put in 7# of ice. The car experienced ZERO vapor lock issues afterward. The ice would run out to water, and then the water start heating up to around 120F in 110F ambients over 2+ hours of highway driving. Basically as you had to stop for a tank of fuel (every two 1/2 hours or so, 240 miles more or less) you drained the water and refilled with ice. No matter WHAT we did, that car didn't stumble from fuel pump not making delivery. Keeping the fuel below 120F seemed to stop the vapor lock issues. This mirrored my experience driving the Baker Grade to the 2001 Convention as well, and JeffP's dyno experience. Assembling a variety of similar symptoms makes a nice data set to start formulating conclusions and and engineering solution.
One of our Z-Car Club Members (a retired Engineer) worked extensively on heat shielding on his car, up to and including thermal barrier isolation to prevent conduction transfer of heat from the head to the fuel rail. Mounting the rail on silicone isolators, so that the steel lines never contacted the steel props on the head. This reduced his fuel temperatures significantly. Additionally he insulated the fuel rails from convected/radiant heat with the standard styles of reflective foil and glassfibre wrapping. This almost completely solved his issues. The last 'lark' he tried was on my suggestion taking a power steering cooler and placing it in airflow to cool the return line fuel. (Something now offered from performance houses 15 years later...) He reported this was also fairly effective. Not a 1 gallon jug of ice in hanging over the starter bandaid, but a systemwide approach to the root issue of fuel picking up heat from the engine bay and then getting to a point where it can not be effectively pumped and vapor locking occurs. (Of course, in the quest for less captive emissions, OEM's went with non-return systems so the heat doesn't go back to the tank.) PM me and I can send him an e-mail with your information. He's still on Earthlink and needs to 'invite' you to e-mail him before he will correspond directly with you. He has a good database on his examination of the vapor locking issue in his car (a 72 240Z Automatic) and his close to 5 year project to get it driveable on today's fuels. A project, last I understand, was now working towards and EFI conversion... LOL
My bet on the OP, BTW, is that the thermostat solved the problem or greatly alleviated it. As Nissan intended. Having 200F air blowing around your engine bay is a bit more strenuous to clean air blend fuel than having 180F air blowing around. This is a direct reduction of 20F, and the ability of it to transfer to the tank and heat the fuel is equally reduced. The OP did not post what fuel level he had when this happened, but my bet, from my research, is that it was below 1/2 tank...and likely below 1/4 tank when this happened.
Observation is the thing that turns anecdotes into research, and research into understanding. If you choose not to observe, you will never understand.
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The statement 'remove heat from a component' is secondary thinking.
Engineering thinking, primary thinking says "don't put the heat there in the first place"!
And that was the impetus for the different thermostats. "Run only as hot as necessary to obtain oil temperature that is suitable."
The "Standard" designation for 180 thermostats come from US VEHICLES. Nissan called them "Tropical" "Temperate" and "Frigid" and it all revolved around short trip heatup. INDEED the temperature you operate at determines when you want the thermostat to open. If you have never run a diesel in -40 you wouldn't understand that even 190F thermostats DON'T WORK and you have to block the radiator (or some rigs use thermostatic baffles to block airflow through the radiator) so any circulation doesn't cool the coolant too much.
"Seems like Nissan would have made the 160 thermostat the standard if 160 was optimum design temperature and it removed the need for the cooling fan, for the ZX's. But, maybe it's just a simple emissions or mileage issue and they had to stay with 180 as the standard. Maybe 160 is better for power and longevity? An "Optimum Engine Temperature" thread could get pretty long, I assume, but it would be interesting."
They did make it standard, when operation was above 30-35C
They made an 80C thermostat standard when operation was below 25-30C
The made an 85C thermostat standard when continued operation was did not exceed 10C
Insofar as emissions, there are some parameters for that, be we aren't talking about a ZX here, we are talking about an S30. The ZX's always ran HOTTER and as a result had extensive auxillary fans on the radiator, venting in the hood, etc. The 160 was still an optional thermostat listed in the parts catalog, with the same criteria for application.
MOST of North America falls within the "Temperate" zone, so an 80C thermostat would be called for most of the year. In the North, or Canada it could be argued an 85C would be "Standard" and there would likely NEVER be a condition that would warrant a 72C Thermostat. Maybe an 80C.... but why bother for 5 degrees if it's only a month a year?
Southern States, however, and the desert southwest in particular DO hit the criteria of "Tropical" Thermostat application at least 6 months out of the year.
Similar to picking your oil viscosity....and not relying on multi-vis. 30WT in the winter, 40WT in the summer. Perfectly acceptable, and doing semi-annual maintenance changing a thermostat is no big deal.
What you will note is a curious tendency in Nissan's Stock Thermostat selection:
72C=162F cracking, fully open by 180 temp at #6 <200F (with Water Wetter and 16psi cap) Clutch Fan INTERMITTENTLY would engage when going uphill towing 100F+.
80C=176F cracking, fully open by 194 temp at #6 214/224F (with Water Wetter and 16psi cap) Clutch Fan Intermittently would engage when towing flat above 110F
85C=185F cracking, fully open by 200 temp at #6 220F/??? (with Water Wetter and 16psi cap) I tended to get runaway cooling issues running this thermostat with new water pump and four core radiator at 110F day at 80mph steady speeds, even with water wetter and properly operating clutch fan setup. The clutch fan was engaged almost continually even going in level travel. Clutch fan engages aroudn 215-220. Coil Temperature was 240F+ like this... everything under the hoot was COOKING with this setup.
What you will see is that with a 160F thermostat, you actually run 180. HOTTER at the back of the engine, and FULLY SATISFYING all of the EMISSIONS requirements by actuating the 176F requirement for enabling of EGR, etc.
The "STANDARD" (Temperate) "emissions" thermostat holds the water flow off the engine until AFTER the sensors are all above 176 before CRACKING the thermostat. This thermostat enables 'closed loop' and EGR as quickly as possible. If you go start your car with a 72C and an 80C thermostat, and drive up a ramp to freeway speed in 2 minutes, they will not have any appreciable affect on emissions engagement whatsoever. On an 80F day. On a 40 F day there will be a difference, especially if you are idling around town. But then you should have the temperate one in there as you are operating at 10C, now, aren't you? They referenced a MINIMUM temperature for employment of the 72C thermostat, and a Max/Min for the 80C thermostat. And a 'continually below' criteria for the "Frigid"....
The "Frigid" thermostat holds the thermostat closed quite a bit longer, but in NO CASE is the thermostat NOT opened by around 180F. The rejection of heat from the oil pan can be significant when colder, and can result in oil too cold to do a good job lubricating. So you let that engine block get good and warm before cooling it.
Referring to thermostats by their cracking temperature, and using the wrong units (F Vs C) gives false information on what happens in reality.
Really, the Nissan Engineers DID KNOW what they were doing. Honestly! That's why they allowed a 72C thermostat on EVERY L-SERIES 68-83...
Now, if you never do maintenance on the car....well... that may be a root as well!
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NO!
It is NOT 'running a cold engine'! This is your basic disconnect with the engineering behind the Nissan L-Series. This is NOT a modern vehicle. This is a vehicle designed around REGULAR maintenance intervals. In fact, changing a thermostat according to ambient environment IS INDEED CALLED FOR! 160 in the Summer, 170 or 185 in the winter. THIS IS THE WAY IT WAS DONE BACK THEN. You do not run it 'too cold all the time'.... I run 160 year-round now, but for YEARS when I drove in to the mountains and would get to zero or at least below 30F I would run a 180 fall to spring. If I don't go where it's cold, it stays 160 as the criteria for it (never getting below 40 F) don't exist to change to one that runs hotter. You have a basic misunderstanding of what design criteria exist for an ICE.
In EVERY CASE, the 160 "Tropical" thermostat is AVAILABLE for the automobiles in question.There are predetermined criteria for it's selection. Much like they gave you a chart for selecting your OIL VISCOSITY. Chances are if you are in 'tropical' climate you can get by with straight 40 weight oil, and there is no need for multi-vis.
160F Thermostat IS A DESIGNED THERMOSTAT FOR THE APPLICATION.
It is NOT 'running it colder than designed'---if you choose to use that terminology I call you out here and now to show me the NISSAN DOCUMENTS that show us what the 'design temperature' was! This goes to a basic misunderstanding of the effect of water jacket temperature to oil temperature. ICE are designed around OIL TEMPERATURE not WATER JACKET TEMPERATURE. But that is for a different time. FACT of the matter is in HOT environments, the NISSAN DESIGNED THERMOSTAT is 160F! Not a SINGLE sensor or function will be affected by running this thermostat on an EFI Vehicle.
You want your oil temperature up to 180F as soon as possible. And the 160 thermostat will NOT allow the oil to EVER get colder than 180F. And for THAT reason Nissan does NOT and has NEVER made a 150F thermostat available for these vehicles. But a 160 IS available.
Now, understanding this, you see that the FIRST LOGICAL STEP is to drop your thermostat temperature to 160. This keeps your oil cooler, and everything under the hood cooler. Emissions concerns were addressed later, and they really don't apply to this discussion. That was done on LATER engine designs, not the L-Series which was designed in the late 50's early 60's! There is NO 'mileage impact' for running a 160F thermostat, your sensors all will get to 170 with that thermostat in there, if not hotter. This will completely remove any and all 'cold start' or 'warmup' enrichments.
Actually, for POWER the argument can be made for a HOTTER thermostat as losses are less. But that is THEORY and benchracing. We are talking here about PRACTICAL applications, and the 160F thermostat keeps the underhood temperatures lower. It keeps the oil cooler. BOTH of these are desired effects. The oil does NOT go lower than 180 EVER. In fact it's likely closer to 200 in this instance, depending on where you monitor it.
But saying 160 is not a DESIGNED COMPONENT is simply wrong. It is. When the heat outside is 90F, there is NO REASON to run a 180F thermostat. It delays cooling of the oil, resulting in spiking above ideal temps. You are trying to apply ONE thermostat to ALL applications, stating things like "OPTIMUM"---well that DOESN'T EXIST.
Depending on CONDITIONS you run different thermostats. The reason? Because even Nissan realized "THERE IS NO BEST"---no "magic bullet" -- no "one size fits all" and FOR THAT REASON the three thermostats exist.
Frankly, unless you are in Thunder Bay Ontario, nobody needs "Frigid" thermostat. It's meant for operation in subzero conditions for extended periods, and ambients which don't exceed 30F. If you don't exceed 20C / 70F you run 'temperate' and if you exceed 30-35C / 90F you run "Tropical"....
I can warrant there is BRISK TRAFFIC in the "Tropical" thermostats in Malaysia, where it stays 32C all the time, Thailand, where it might hit 27 during the coldest part of the rainy season but otherwise is 30C+++ the rest of the year. If you are in a continuous daytime temperature of 30C or above, you need thermostat "TROPICAL"
Now, couple this with the Aerosols Diffusion of UV Radiation, where SoCal at 85F/30C runs a 60C airflow through the radiator, and at 45-50C it's 70-75C through the radiator you realize that a 72C thermostat will be opening EARLY.... Run an 80C thermostat, and you will BOIL in the engine as there won't be flow to cool the rad sufficiently, not to mention what happens to oil temperature.
If it's only 21C out, SURE, go ahead, run an 80C Thermostat. No harm no foul... But 30C? In Southern Deserts where your radiator thermal layer is 60-70C? Underhood will be HOT HOT HOT and even HOTTER with a higher thermostat.
Go search on KTM's experience in So Cal with runaway temperatures in his Z after coming off the highway and sitting on a ramp. Once he put the 160/72C thermostat in it didn't repeat. Go to the Grape Ape Racing page and read about nucleate boiling. This is more than injector heat soak.... Each component has several solutions, but as a SYSTEM you have to balance them to get the best mix of advantages. Running a 24psi cap will keep your 190F Thermostat from boiling in almost every instance. NEVER have a boil-over issue. But now you got 215F heat radiating all over under the hood. And you got injectors failing, frying, etc....
Now, put that 24 psi cap on, run a 170 thermostat, or a 160 thermostat, you NEVER boil over (it still may be getting to 200 at the back of the head, but it doesn't start nucleate boiling) and you have dropped your underhood temperatures significantly.
What is a good SYSTEM approach, taking in all the variables? A fan pumping air from the starter area works to some extent, but it doesn't address heat generation.
The root is heat GENERATION. Don't generate any more heat than is NECESSARY. That is the KEY. It's what Nissan decided back in 1969, but Americans disregarded and continued to have problems with their cars for decades afterwards. There is complexity to this, there is no 'best'.... there are sets of conditions, and you choose what's best for those data sets.
And from my testing, once you get over 80 degrees, if you don't run a 160 thermostat, you have A LOT MORE ISSUES ON EVERYTHING UNDER THE HOOD, than you do if you run a hotter thermostat.
Now, it's your choice to make. You can choose to have issues, or avoid issues. If you have them, don't discount that there may be a simple answer.
As the OP said, 'I will try the thermostat' and I support that thought.
That IS the first step over 80F. If that doesn't work, start looking deeper as to what is going on.
Differences between euro ZX T and usdm?
in Miscellaneous Tech
Posted
You got a European delivery model, which used EFI and not ECCS. It incorporates a simple idle bypass for idle setup, no CAS (pneumatic advance/retard E12-80 Distributor) no EGR, no Catalyst (therefore no need for O2 Feedback), no AAR, and a basic 'dumb box' with open loop programming. ALL European model ZXT's came with an Oil Cooler for both the Engine AND the Differential (3.36 R200) It is SIGNIFICANTLY easier to swap this into another vehicle. The Exhaust Manifold is segmented into 3 pieces with a hotside 0.82 A/R as opposed to the USA of 0.63 A/R. JeffP has some photos of the manifold on his "Extreme 280ZXT" webpage on Anglefire under 'exhaust manifold'...
It was rated at 200BHP opposed to 180BHP for the US Models with ECCS.
You have identified the major differences endemic to the Euro Market. Frank in Holland (Frank280ZX) might be able to help with the wiring diagrams, but who knows, it may be in German! LOL