Tony D
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Posts posted by Tony D
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LOL
Only in California would "Chen" be considered a common last name...
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A return line and FPR is needed at the rail for consistant fuel pressure. For this reason alot of the 350z/g35 guys are running return systems for higher hp apps.
This is incorrect. A non-return fuel system is available in most new vehicles as part of Federal Evaporative Emissions Requirements. Without using a return line, the fuel in the tank stays MUCH cooler, and therefore decreases fuel offgassing.
A variable speed pump and fuel pressure transducer is all that is required to have consistent fuel pressures for a non-return fuel injection system. Matter of fact there are aftermarket kits out there now that incorporate PWM Control of the fuel pump through the ECM to do just that. BOSS Fuel Injection has PWM controllers that will run up to 500HP through their ECM. After that point, you must use a return line, simply because the amperage required to control that size fuel pump can not be accomodate within the confines of their small ECM control box. The reason G35 Guys are switching over to other regulators/return lines is for similar reasons---the existing controller and pump will not support the horsepower, not because the inherent design of the fuel delivery system is flawed (non returnless).
The key point is to remember that the fuel boils because of heat soak AFTER the car is shut off. Realistically, if you have a problem with the setup you make, simply raise the fuel pressure from 3 bar to 4 bar (around 60 psi instead of 45) static and that shold raise the pressure boiling point more than enough to solve the problem.
I'm amazed I didn't remember this from my own issues. I ran 4 Bar initially because I thought my injectors may need to be larger (I originally set up twin 270cc Turbo Injectors and was running lean on the dyno at 100hp, so I changed to 550's and went back to stock EFI pressure of 36psi static and occasionally had some soak restart issues until I bypassed the 3 sec timer on MS to run the pump longer.) I just put two and two together and realized that the decrease in static rail pressure (I was feeding injectors UNDER the SU's near the exhaust...) could account for the problem I was having with the 550's which didn't happen with the 270's at higher pressure!
I'd say bump your fuel pressure and compensate by 'increasing' the size of your injectors in the MS program to accomodate the increased flow at 45psi -vs- 60psi (or whatever) and you sohuld be fine.
In other words, run it with what you have, and if you have a problem FIRST try to increase the fuel pressure to 60 psi and see if that cures the issue. If not, then return lines or other methods for gietting cooling flow to the injector pintle fuel line may be required.
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Jesus Tony D, how big is your yard/parking lot? Where are the pictures and what is your address?
ADD TWO MORE TO THE LIST!!!
1990 Chevrolet C3500 Dually Crew Cab with a 454 Big Block (Red)
1979 Peak Brothers 22' Enclosed Car Trailer (former occupant, NHRA 29 T-Bucket that ran 6's @ 220mph at Lions Dragstrip)
2.38 Acres...
Photos abound on the internet, I just haven't posted any recently. There might be some older photos of some of the stuff at my Cardomain Page: sharkie73z
If I post any, they usually go in one of the vehicle accounts there.
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The problem with most racing belts is they are not compliant with FMVSS sections regarding passenger restraint, and are therefore not 'legal' for use in road vehicles. I know Schroth makes DOT/FMVSS complaint harnesses, others probably do as well. It depends on what your state vehicle code references as criteria for roadworthy operation. Some states specifically defer to 'federal standards' others are much more vague and in those cases it could be legal to use them on the street. With the mounting caveats mentioned above, also realize that a seat that does not secure you laterally is all but useless, and if there is any foam to compress it makes even the tightest 'race harness' a moot point---you can slip out from it under seat compression and literally be thrown from the vehicle (this happened at a land speed event at 100mph when a stock bench seat in a vehicle compressed enough to allow the driver to move in a manner that slipped a couple of harness straps free and bounced him about the interior till he was dead and quite unsightly...)
Belts can be recertified, but it usually costs near as much as a new set. They are throwaway items. If someone wants to use throwaway parts for their street car, take steps to insure you are not making any claims for suitability for application and let them know that so you don't get litigated upon when Johnny Honda's parents come looking for the guy who sold their son 'racing seatbelts that failed' when his Accord went into the tree at 132mph...
And thanks to John C's post in another thread, it is FMVSS 209 that I refer to, and since I mentioned Schroth, John posted their installation instructions there, and on the obligatory 'litigation avoidance pages' of their installation manual you can see their warnings about their racing belts and street usage:
http://www.schrothracing.com/docs/Competition_Instructions.pdf
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That's a neat little gizmo!
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One other option would be to put the fuel distribution block in the center of hte manifold with the regulator attached there, and using that as a centralized return point for the fuel return line. This way the length of the lines to any individual injector could be minimized/equalized, and you would know liquid fuel would always be in the block, just a short distance from the injection point. It could look very Hilborn-Like set up that way as the return pellet housing and return lever could be on that block to make it 'look' mechanical.
The thing that is in my mind is the length of the lines to the longest injector may result in a pressure drop during batch firing. The lines should all come from a suitably sized distribution block with an accumulator on it to minimise pulsations when the injector banks fire. JeffP has a nice example on his webpage.
I didn't have any issues firing alternate pulse 550cc injectors through 1/4" dedicated lines, but then I only had two of 'em.
Putting the lines higher -- say on the same plane as the valve cover mounting bolts -- would allow you to make some neat insulated line clamps. The heat transmitted by the metal standoffs bolted directly to the head in early cars is considerable. Much of the heat transmission to the fuel lines was eliminated by simply insulating the heat transfer point with some phenolic holders instead of brazed sheetmetal holders (it's one of the reasons why the OEM line holding apparatus was plastic lined...)
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Searchy Searchy...the part number for the recommended replacement washers from McMaster Carr is listed already. A package of ten will arrive UPS from their Norwalk CA location in a day to most of Nevada...
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I have seen Jack's car, and can attest what he shows in the photos posted here are only the tip of the iceberg.
That car was a SoCal car that was shipped to the NL from my back yard, and I am continually amazed at what the progress has been from that humble starting point.
I owe him photos of it from my back yard, so he can show how far it 'really has come'! I am remiss in my dutues. Maybe now that my archive drive is at work, I'll have some time to comb through it and find those shots!
I love the foreshadowing of hte English Wheel in the foreground! LOL
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Obviously the seed planted over Christmas was germinating.
That seed being the phrase: "Just because I don't buy it doesn't mean it won't be stored out back anyway!"
On Friday evening I got word it was still available, and for the negotiated price of $4500.
I passed this on to the wife that evening, and that Saturday Afternoon or Sunday some time, we could go look at it. While riding over to Lowes to get some stuff on Saturday morning, she out of left field blurts:
"You can get the Dually, but you have to paint one of the Z's!"
Where did that come from? I can have it, but I have to paint one of the Z's?
This was not on the table. IMO, the painting of one of the Z's was in the same column as 'Getting a Tow Rig' or 'Heading to Bonneville for a week.' You know, "Those items which I particularly like to do from time to time."
Nothing was mentioned about removing the 7 cars (which I still am progressing on regardless)...
I have to paint one of the Z's!
I guess Santa Claus came late for me this year. I get a Tow Rig Combo, and will have a Shiny Z to put into it!
I am heading to the bank for the cash in 8 minutes, and taking a 1/2 day vacation to go pick up the rig.
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Fuel Injection Lines run out over the head may suffer from some heat soak...and not having individual lines back from each injector to the FPR Manifolding block may cause issues in heat. All depends on where you are driving it. And it usually happens after the car has been shut down for more than 5 minutes, but less than 10. This is the design criteria for the cooler fan on the ZX's. There was some gas formation that was hard to get the car restarted till liquid fuel traveled back in the rail to cool it, or the increase in pressure simply recondensed vaporous fuel back into liquid form. The injectors cycling will vent the gassous fuel with enough cranking (as in the early S30's when it happens), but having that 3 second reprime pump to clear the rail of fuel vapors and get liquid petrol to the backside of the injector will only work well if there is a return from the hottest point. Doubling up the lines or running a 't' with a smaller bleeder orifice back to the regulator manifold would do it....but it's going to get the top of the manifold extremely busy.
If you're not running in the desert southwest, likely it will never be an issue. Any place in the Midwest or where there is considerable aerosols in the atmosphere to keep road temps down will likely never have an issue with the flash vaporisation after shutdown. And that's when it occurs: after shutdown. You will only notice it after shutdown and when trying to restart in that 5-10 minutes after shutdown timeframe.
Shorter, and the heat soak is not an issue. Longer, and it's not an issue.
Even my 75 will sit idling for hours on the Lakes in 120 degree heat and never miss a beat. But shut it down and try a restart at 7 minutes and it's hard to start---the MS "FLOOD CLEAR" logic will help with this a lot. Shut it down and try a start after an hour or even 20 minutes and it's perfect. But 7-10 on that car, and it's sometimes hit and miss. Shorter than that it fires fine.
The stainless may help, a nice stainless heat shield between the head in a 'tray' layout may add to the look and work nicely as a heat shield.
Sticking them inside a split rubber hose may give it a more "Hilborn" look as well... Though the lines as laid out look mean as heck. My kid said it looks 'like a racing diesel'! LOL
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And as far as me using triple 40's as a comparison, there was a very good reason that I didn't say 44's or 45's, Boss. Just like Derek, I was keeping the goal lower than what could reasonably be expected, to give him the benefit of the doubt.
The selection of 40mm PHH's is significant in that the EFI system handles airflow completely different. A set of air horns as-cast by Derek in a 40mm bore size would be equivalent to 44 or 45mm (and realistically, more like 48mm) Carburettors.
What Derek has cast is comparable to, and will flow better than most 50mm Carbs in full race trim, yet due to the EFI setup will idle and have around-town drivability never dreampt of in such an application. There is no doubt to be benefitted...
What he's cast would make power comparable to what is on World-Class Competition rigs running much larger carburettors.
And it was from this viewpoint that I opined such a comparison as yours was totally specious. A non-starter. It would have been mentioned as-such two years ago. To bring it up now simply smacks of shouting louder to get the word in after the microphone has been shut off and the audience is leaving. Kind of counterproductive, and causing spook more than any relative good that could come from the mention of such 'concerns'.
The parts as-designed are capable FAR beyond what his intended usage for them will be, and likely will ever be.
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Actually I temporarily removed the block heater when I installed the EDIS and have missed it ever since. The car is harder to start, runs poorly, and get's terrible mileage since I only drive 3 miles to the shop.
Yep, those short trips are killers for EFI and gas mileage. The electricity for a block heater is pennies compared to the petrol cost.
My wife is almost convinced something is wrong with her Frontier as it's in the mid-teens going the 5 miles to and from work the past month or so... compared to high teens in the summertime. Cold start warmup circuit. It's not off till she gets almot to work. In the summer, shes likely starting at 40C+ instead of 0C or maybe 10C at the most.
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I'd leave any block heater connected. Starting a high performance engine up with the cylinders all the same temperature (operating temperature or near it) does have advantages.
And with EFI, you would save all that time on the cold-run loop sucking down gas you don't need to waste! Block Heaters: A Green Alternative as a gas-saving device for an EFI car that nobody ever considers!
They run the engine up warm enough you rarely need more than the initial priming pulse to start the engine, then immediately are warm enough to go into closed-loop operation. Gas saver to be sure...
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Methinks it's gone, or the guy went out of town for the holidays...
My only hope is that he returns and finds my calls on his machine.
I've started looking at open deck trailers as I got crap I got to move now, while I'm home. And I needed one of those anyway---in addition to needing an enclosed unit 'down the road'. I just don't think women get the whole 'target of opportunity' unless it involves shoes or clothes or something relatively cheap.
I tend to look well into the future on some things, and stuff will sit for extended periods. Then when it 'happens' things move really fast and people wonder how something so complex got done so quickly. It's 10 years of planning and 6 months of feverish activity...that's how!
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Define 'connector'.
If it's 110V, then a block connector is the most logical iteration.
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I might be interested in the truck. Maybe I can trade some S30 parts for it...?
Oh, you bastard!
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As an aside, the other portion of the contract was awarded to Presidential Airways
Well, that old airlift outfit that ran those white 707's out of Taiwan did OK some years back!
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1962 VW Deluxe Microbus. I still own it, 26+ years later and a quarter of a million + miles down the road....
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ooooh, nice paint, and even nicer Defi Gauge set!
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Ghosttanker nails their function & issue, it's defrost and airflow. The relocation to the quarters was to give a place to allow for a larger vent without being obtrusive. The original small rectangular hatch placement vents on the early cars weren't functioning that well, and had issues with water leakage to the interior more than any perceived issue with 'fumes'. When new, 'fumes' was not really an issue with either position. Drive a Z without a rear hatch, and you will notice the defroster works really well, and there is no fume issue at all.
With the 34 degree mornings finally getting me frost on the windshield, the lower vents blowing cold air onto my legs is kind of sucky, as the heater is on 'high, fan position 3' to keep the interior at 70mph whilst going 80mph down the 60 freeway in the morning.
In the FSM the show the 'flow through' fucntion of design to the heater system, as well.
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My biggest fear is that some one points something out that's a deal breaker on this.
That point has long since past, Derek! Anything that anybody is going to mention at this point (as well as 2 years ago) will be nothing more than theoretical parsing of a proven concept. Something they think may be an issue. Frankly, having put as much time into EFI conversion of Triple Carburetted engines on both racing and street vehicles there is nothing of substance anybody can say to me to make me prefer a set of triple carbs over almost anything with EFI.
If your rules dictate carburettors, that is what you run. And in most cases, that is why people see so many carburetted engines out there. Same with us at Bonneville with the 2+2---it's not some 'inherent advantage' given to us by the body style, it's what the rules say we have to run. To the casual observer who never questions what he sees and gets in to the 'inside story' they can draw all sorts of incorrect conclusions about what they are seeing.
You are on the downhill slope. You are going to be amazed by the way these things run...even compared to the stock EFI the auditory reward will mask any drivability or small technical difficulties you will encounter along the way getting them to peak performance.
Hell, if you run Alpha-N on the setup initially (or as some have mentioned MAP-Based Accel) I think out of the box the drivability and throttle response compared to just about any other Z---carburetted or fuel injected will be phenomenal. And fine-tuning the parameters will make it even better!
Like Woldson mentions, it's in the execution that the proof will come.
Theoreticians would never have come up with the tungsten filament light bulb---standard in the industry now for over 100 years. It took a guy in a workshop who didn't listen to what experts said couldn't be done to show them their assumptions were wrong. Of course, they claimed they were physical laws...but only from their way of thinking.
This is nothing new, you have taken the steps to make the things work as best possible without actually runnning them. Just complete them, put them on a car and start working out the mechanical interface and tuning issues. There is where OEM's spend countless thousands of man hours making 'perfectly engineered systems' work in the real world.
You can have everything right, and it can still not work. The best you cna hope for is nothing creeps up in incompatible metallurgy that causes irritating long-term usage issues that require you to pull them back off the car and rework some portion of the unit.
I see them as totally workable, it's just how will the pivots hold up to 100K miles of beating in the dirty environment of the real world.
And we won't know that till we get to that point.
Till then, fretting about theoretical issues is counterproductive. The concept is great, just work the issues that now arise in funtional testing. The time to fret over theoretical issues is over by 700 days + of discussion!
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I would hate to see you invest this massive quantity of time and love into such a great idea, and have it make less power than a set of triple 40's...
Just something to briefly ponder.
IMO that concern is splitting hairs that won't easily be nailed down at best---totally unfounded at worst. This is a purely theoretical point to bring up. If you look at most Triple Manifolds, they have their own compromises that bring up their own theoretical issues.
And using 'triple 40's' is definately not a gold standard for power production.
A cobbled together set of Maxima 45mm ITB's ran better out the gate with MS driving the setup on a V8 Tuned Fuel Program than most 40's and 44's I've seen where people spent several hours trying to figure jetting out on their own!
Not to mention, the EFI setup will start reliably in 35 degree weather and drive off with drivability that you would dream of using 45 Webers in that kind of cold!
I wouldn't even briefly ponder it, given what I've seen in the difference between any 45 ITB's compared on the same engine with their former 45 DCOE's and PHH's and DHLA's....
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Oooooh, the butterfly screws---yeah the standard there is brass.
The tube will work on the injector screws to set the height...I used the nuts because I had several different injectors I was experimenting with, and they were of different heights...and found out used different size O-Rings as well, but that's another story. Just something to fix them in position so the injector can 'float' on it's O-Rings and you're set.
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Brass Screws may stake nicely, but a button-headed Stainless Steel Screw won't discolor!
Just thread a self-locking SS Nut and small washer underneath the flange on your injector 'fuel cap' and run it up close to the underside. Once you have it set to the height you want, run the nut up tightly against the bottom of that fuel cap while holding the screw secure.
Can't turn, can't unscrew from the manifold, and the injector fuel cap is permanently fixed at a set height (which you can adjust at any time) by the jam nut.
You really want the injector to be able to 'float' inside the base and cap so it can grow with thermal expansion. If you screw the things down tight, there will be a bind on the body when the injector and all the metal expands as they warm up.
Why does this come to mind so quickly: Great Minds Think Alike. This is almost the identical method that I used on the SU Throttle Body Conversions I made, and that's how I set the fuel hat to proper height within the float bowl!
Screw Brass and Staking them! Just put a nylock nut, or an internally toothed lockwasher and jam nut (they are 8mm in my application...) on there.
I use Allen Headed Screws for the sanitary look, and because the button-headed ones are smoooth and polish out with jewler's rouge to look like chrome.
Questions on L28 dyno numbers
in 6 Cylinder Z Forums
Posted
something is obviously lost in the translation with 'mr k's book'...