Tony D
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Posts posted by Tony D
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Well, after another year, I got some more time to play and finish the MS install.
Yes, I'm still at it!
Thought it was pretty well solved when I diagnosed the second Autozone Alternator as a noise / reset source.
Made up my external regulator plug with diode, and this weekend finally got the chance to reinstall the 81ZXT alternator that was on the car in the first place.
Problem solved, right? Not hardly!
Does the SAME DAMN THING!
I can run all day long on the battery. Hell, I can run at any speed I want below flash speed for the alternator and the thing runs wonderfully.
But 15 to 24 seconds after the alternator field flashes, the first LED on the MS Box drops out, the tach in the car drops to zero, and the car will run like sh*t afterwards till I shut it off and restart it. As long as the alternator is NOT charging the system, the car will run.
I am totally disgusted with this process at this point. After the first box died with no warning, I installed the second box, but I really don't want to reflash the chip to see if something is fcorrupetd, I don't think that's it.
It sickens me to have helped so many other people get these little silver boxes running in THEIR cars. Many times talking them through it over the phone!
But this sh*t is simply ridiculous!
Is there anybody interested in buying three preassembled MS boxes, Relay Boxes, and Megaview kits still in their shipping box? I'm about ready to chuck it all in, I don't have the time for this kind of bullsh*t! The most frustrating thing is I seem to have everybody else under the sun working, but myself. WTF is the deal with that?
I am still runnning the original MS-n-S code, have not changed over to MS-S-E simply because I am totally uinfamiliar with it, and don't need more headaches to contend with in trying to get it to work. For the time I have spent, I am sorry I didn't buy Lance Nist's System for $1800 and jsut RAN the damn car without having to freaking engineer some damn super filter for every time an electrical component on the vehicle farts and disrupts the system.
I am at my wits' end to figure out what the fu*king hell I have to do to get the damn thing to just RUN without crapping out all over the place.
Running on battery power is not an option, and with a NISSAN alternatorin there (with attached costs) I'll be DAMNED if I spend another DIME to buy another component.
The light, as well as apparently spark and injection events just drop off after the thing has flashed the field. Unacceptable. WTF would cause this?
The MS forum is about useless, I gave up on them a year ago when it kept loosing my login, and even when I placed a post, it was soundly ignored. This is my last refuge---does ANYBODY have ANY idea what could be causing MY BOXES SUCCEPTIBILTIY to interference? This goddamned thing needs to work with commercially available alternators, I REFUSE to make some super-duper effort other than the Radio Shack Power Filter on the inlet power supply line to the box at this point.
What a crock of F-ing Shite!
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Italian Relatives live in "The Villages" in Florida, Jeff...
But you will owe them a favor...
"Under Cover of Darkness..."
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286RWHP at 8250, L28 .040", 14:1 CR----not exactly streetable...
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So, what is the concensus on EFI and big lumpy cams? I would assume that since mechanical injection works with big mondo cams that EFI would share some similarities, but I think the MAS or MAF would create problems if you have alot of intake reversion from lots of overlap. There has got to be an EFI guru here to share wisdom.
Our Experience at Bonneville was as follows:
Four Barrel, idled at 2200rpm, made peak power around 6500-7000 (never made it to Bonneville, only ran El Mirage because it was loosing power above 6500)
Triple Weber 45's, idled at 1700, made peak power at 7500, took a few records. The dyno curve looked like someone drew it on the chart with a felt-tip pen. A classic eyebrow arch.
Triple TWM 45 Throttle Bodies, idled at 1700 when starting stone cold at 39 degrees F, settling down to 800rpm idle when warm, made peak power at 8250, and made 40 more HP than the Webers at that point (8250)
To get the same HP from Carbs we would have needed to run Weber 55mm DCOEs, and I shudder to think what they would have idled like.
The EFI had a "quirky" curve, kinda in segments, not smooth likethe Webers, but the ability to have tractability at partial throttle to modulate wheelspin at speed was important, and the EFI had far more tractability than any of the other setups.
All three setups had identical engine setup, same car, we just changed the induction system and went back to the dyno to do the usual tuning to see what kind of advance each one liked, what jetting gave the best results, where the cam gave the best results, etc...
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You know, with all that has been mentioned, nobody has talked about crossfiring between #5 & #7 wires. Once it is initiated, the engien continues to run with it like that, jumping between wires laid in paralell for a distance.
When I was in tech school, a Champion Sparkplug rep showed us with the plug wires simply CROSSING each other at right angles!
Makes for annoying, consistent backfires.
And as Moby said (like I experienced when my initial timing on the disc was set too far advanced), the engine could jump phase on the terminals, and once it's there, it will keep firing that way till it jumps back!
Good Luck, M8!
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I got 'em.
Conversion with screw-in injector bungs for EFI is the plan.
I begged off the auction when Bryan called me last time "Are you going to bid on them?" No use driving up the price.
You bought the straight one I was waiting for Braap! And you drove up the price. Snipe, man, SNIPE! Save the money for other things! LOL
This will free up some HKS Throttle bodies I have (that cost quite a bit more!) for another project.
Originally John (the guy who is selling the goodies) told me they were 1 7/16" butterflies, so I was not that interested, but after the talk with Bryan the night before the auction ended and finding out the throttle plates were 45/46mm and the manifold end was 36/37mm, I figured they would flow equivalently to the HKS units, so I could use them for the race car instead.
Intimidation factor of Hilborn Style Stacks out the hood at an angle appeals to me, but will probably be a bit much...
So on to more projects. My wife will have my butt when she finds out how much this stuff cost... Oh well.
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That really does look great, not to mention a hell of a lot better then that erm "OTHER" place that was making the manifolds a while back
Yeah, I wonder if JeffP has seen this yet? Another relocation of the bits!
LOL
If it warps at all, put an expansion bellows in the runner to #1 and #6. The Sch10 Weld Els will work on four cylinders all day long.
After it's all up and welded, some scotchbrite work will make that baby smoooooth, and then some rouge work and it will look like a seamless mirror.
People will lust for it, and you can just laugh!
Keep us posted on the progress, looks good thusfar.
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From the four barrel to the Weber 45 triples, we picked up 20 hp at 6500rpm, and our power peak was at 7500 (compared to about 6500 with the four barrel)
We then changed to TWM EFI (triple 45mm TB's) and gained 40HP over the triple 45 Webers at 8250rpm, meaning our power peak went higher to 8250 instead of 7500...
Carbs depend on velocity to make horsepower. The velocity is ALWAYS a restriction to horsepower. With a carb you will make more an more HP as long as you keep design velocity through the venturi and keep upsizing.
EFI is a bit different. First thing Andy said when he saw how much JohnC made was "I could have saved a lot of money using that manifold if it supports 287HP!)
But it wouldn't have LOOKED a good, Andy! LOL
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That is an Eggers and Vickers Mechanical Fuel Injection Manifold.
It will not fit under the hood of a Z with those stacks on it. 1 Fast Z bought the last two he offered, and one of those was a straight model that WILL fit under the hood.
They were not in cars, the guy ran them in Hydroplane Boats.
Bit high-rpm usage for a streeter...
I think you could buy the applicable bits from Kinsler Fue Injection in Troy MI, but knowing what I have seen from Hillborn Injection systems in use at the salt flats and at El Mirage, I'd skip the Mechanical Setup! Pills, bypass springs, blah blah blah.... Not for me! If it's FI, it's E F I for my tastes!
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I will have to go check some more now, as I can't remember the runners I checked. There may well be a difference in size between castings and years.
Basically, the runner sizes you guys are mentioning are around 32mm. Which when you split the plenum off the LD 28 manifold is what you find at that juncture (roughly), though if you measure at the flange where it goes to the head, it's like 35mm, but 12mm in the manifold it's 34, and 25mm in the manifold it's down in size to 32.
I doubt the cross-sectional variations will amount to much---it's a 32mm runner for all intents an purposes. And is a 32 mm runner in the LD28, with a revered cone at the head to 35mm (exactly opposite of what you actually want!)
I know my E88 head has been ported to 36mm at the flange where the manifold meets the head, and the manifold is mated to it, tapering to 40mm at the throttle bodies. (Street Ported)
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I would bet the tests in SCC were performed in 4th gear at different rpms. That is generally how you test for boost threshold when you get a new turbo car. It will tell you where you can "get on it" and get full boost with proper response.
So be cruising at say 2500rpm in fourth---level ground, and WOT. Basically throttle is cracked open so the AFM is already opened slightly. You will find the response lag from the EFI goes away above about 32/3500rpm as that is about where the AFM flap is pinned up against the "full open" stop internally.
Then do it again at 3000, and again at 3500, etc etc etc...
Then go from 7 to 10, and see what you get.
Then go from 10 to 12, repeat.
Then go from 12 to 14. If you it from 2000rpms and chart it out, you will find some corves that might be useful in determining how the turbo responds.
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Well, if I'm going to keep the L28, how about maybe doing a blow through turbo using my Dellortos? That would be different.
Actually, it would be right in line with the Maserati BiTurbo. The Dellortos have special emulsion tubes, seals for the shafts, and other items devised for the blow-through turbo application. They are actually the ideal blow-through carburettor to use in the situation, if you can get those emulsion tubes and shaft seals for sure. It allows use of a simple plenum to pressurize the throats and floatbowls, and lets you run smaller jets than you normally would in the application.
If you can find an Old-School HKS Surge Tank, you will have the best engineered plenum for the application as well.
No, you can't have mine, either! But I might be convinced to sell the SK-Blowthrough Plenm.........
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What I was getting at with my statement was that the webbing keeps exhaust manifold heat from transferring up to the fuel rail, and is a SECONDARY blockage after the heat shield under the manifold itself. The heat shield keeps the heat out of the manifold, and hte manifold is a heat dam for the fuel rail. They work together, so yes---you will have BOTH on a factory equipped car. It's not an either-or situation. The earlier non-webbed manifolds had the heat shield ONLY, and did have some hot restart heatsoak problems. So they put in the webbing, and added vents to the hood.
Then came the ZX, and another manifold altogether!
I have measured those runners, and UP IN THE RUNNER the size measures the same from what I found. (This includes the LD28 manifold, too.) At the HEAD, the runners may be slightly larger, but up the manifold say 1" measured with a snap (telescoping) gauge you will find a different story than at the head/manifold juncture.
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well to be specific' date=' what I do is accelerate up to 300-500rpm higher than the exact rpm I want to test from... so, if I want to test at 3000rpm, I'll acclerate (easy, not WOT) up to ~3300rpm, then let off the gas completely. RPM drops slowly, and as soon as the needle hits 3000rpm I punch it and start my stopwatch.
Of course, if I'm actually steady cruising at 3000rpm (somewhere in the 10-15% throttle range I'm guessing) and then punch it, it will spool up a tad bit faster.
It just seems to be a more exact way to test, doing it that way.
[/quote']
Nope, you are exacerbating the problem of on-boost response by starting from full drop-throttle. Almost a full second (up to .750 of a second) will be the inherent lag of the stock AFM system moving the flap open, then recalculating the WOT position, then moving to the fuel fuel map. Even an N/A engine with the stock AFM system will have a noticable delay when you do the test in that manner. I can feel it in every N/A Bosch system I have ever driven, and it drove me to distraction especially in the Z. Floor it, think about it, then GO!
From GO! your turbo then spools up.
It's a function of an inappropriate testing procedure, combined with electronic lag. I noticed when using L28ET electronics the boost response was MARKEDLY SLOWER than when I had my Mikuini Triple Blowthrough setup on the car, and the Mikuini's had response akin to the Megasquirt when they were running well.
The Megasquirt boosts FAR faster than the stock system.
It's not the turbo, a lot of it is in the electronics you are running. There is not enough advance to heat the exhaust, fuel shot to make heat and exhaust velocity...etc etc etc.
In short, even SCC did not run their cars closed throttle to WOT. And remember anything below boost threshold is not lag, it's improper driving.
Having been in JeffP's car recently, I can attest to the fact that at 2800rpms I can't even get "One" out of my mouth after he says "NOW" and floors it, before his setup is at 8psi. At 2800rpms on a big turbo, with Z31 Electrics...
I can't wait to see what it does at 15psi, and where that boost threshold rpm will be...
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Nissan. They should have the oil pump gaskets in stock. If they don't have them for an 83 ZXT, then tell them one of the trucks with a KA24. They use the same gasket.
Or so says Jim Wolf... They had the 83ZXT part number, suprise suprise, so we didn't get a chance to firsthand check out hte KA 24 designation...
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The purpose of the webbing is to keep as much heat away from the fuel as possible.
The purpose of the heat shield under the manifold is to keep as much heat away from the manifold as possible.
I would not go with a non-webbed intake unless it came on the car. Meaning I wouldn't go out looking for one if I had a Non-EGR webbed manifold. I like my P82.
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Yes, by joint, I didn't mean to say only an bellows would do.
The stock Euro manifold I have has reworked slip joints to replace the bellows that came stock since they are NLA.
In fact, Nissan used a machined recess that had two pieces inside each other one mated inside each respective portion of the manifold, then a bellows that covered the whole schebang. Basically a slip-joint covered by a bellows.
The replacement parts I have are slip joint only, and the manufacturer has been running his in Europe for over a year now with no leaks. Initially he said there was some "puffing" cold, but as temperatures came up (or soot blocked the leak path!) it all sealed up nicely.
I concur with the brace. A visit to Mario down at Toespeed reveals he usually makes a brace from the motor mount to the turbo flange. This is on Weld-El SS manifolds on HOndas supporting big turbos. He said even using Sch40 Weld Els, there was a cracking problem from overhung weight at the flange. Since he has added some 1/4" rods to each of the bottom corners to brace it to the motor mount area (almost directly below the thing on those applications) he has not had any cracking, and it allowed him to go back to using Sch10 SS Weld-Els.
Triangulation might be a bit difficult, but he thinks a couple of rods could be fit somewhere to hold it all up and keep it from twisting. He attaches his to the flange itself. I like the idea of those heim joints, that would allow for checking stretch hot, then cold, and figuring out where inbetween you want to introduce the stresses. At that point, I suppose you could make them from a straight rod and use the ball joints elsewhere.
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it was to commemorate the rally wins of datsun... or something like that...
That guy is SMOKING something on that auction!
That is a simple run-of-the-mill available on every car in Japan Nissan Oil Cap!
"Commerate the Safari Wins in 1969" OH MAN, THAT'S RICH!
HAW HAW HAW!
The Elephant is a "Service Symbol" in Nissan Literature, and is on the Nissan-Branded Oil they sold at the service bays, also.
That is so full of it, it's ludicrous! Man, that guy gave me my laugh today!
No, it's nothing special, it's just a JDM oil cap. Nothing "commerative" about it at all!
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Flywheel Assy sounds heavy. What is it lightened to, and how much is your pressure plate/flywheel total weight?
Mikuini Manifold, right? Niiice!
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You can usually tell by looking. Unpolished 6AL-4V looks like steel with a light charcoal/brown color. Should be non-magnetic. Also' date=' check the retainers for some type of coating or treatment. AL or steel retainers will gall Ti so some type of coating is needed (most likely cad).
BTW... Delwest also sells stainless and steel valves.
http://www.delwestusa.com[/quote']
I know they have an SS line, but the power peak on this engine way 8700, and was apparently twisted to 9K during races. The cam profile was "unique" and alas, I do not have the cam to go with it---I will have to talk to Ron I. and have him grind me something. Looking forward to it showing up so I can test it.
I know when ground, Ti gives brilliant white sparks. I have a bunch of Ti billet ends from when ILM was still down on 180th and Western (The Two Big Smoke Stacks on the south side of the 405 SB) They were the place that forged a lot of the SR71 stuff. Man, what a dive when it was in operation.
But I got some cool little bits that always make people scratch their heads when they get it in their hand. I suppose weighing one or two will pretty well tell the tale.
Thanks, Guys!
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Annybody know of an available commercial tincture or something to I.D. the material of the valves in my new E88 head?
I have the possibility of having some Titanium Valves in a head I bought, and wondered how (short of weighing them after disassembly) one could tell with the head assembled?
Scratch a head with a SS valve? (eeh!)
Dyno sheet and build sheet is nebulous, but valves on head build sheet are listed "DelWest" and to me that means Ti... Engine was making power to the 8700 range. Metallurgy is not annotated otherwise. I am waiting for the head to be delivered, so when I get it here, I'm hoping to I.D. them or do some measurements to verify that the build sheet corresponds to what I find on the head, to rule out a mistake of being supplied the incorrect build sheet for the head.
So how do I satiate my curiosity when it arrives?
Anyone? Bueller?
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Radiator Hoses?
Anybody ever see the old Renault Fuego intercooler connections? Look just like radiator hose on the other part of the block!!!
First thing most owners did was to remove them and replace with a solid steel or aluminum piping because of "balooning" causing a "mushy" boost response.
For prototyping, I see no problem with it. But after seeing what Renault Hoses look like, and how they are balooned and deformed after a few years of boost....I'll move to solid lines as soon as practicable!
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The intake is triple 45mm TWMs on a Mikuni manifold.
The exhaust is the infamous South Florida Performance header. (do a search)
Joel - yes' date=' I had to move the turbine inlet flange around a bit, but not too much. Looks like I'm going to be modding it a bit more, as a couple of the welds have cracked from heat stress (SFP didn't do too good a job of designing for heat expansion). I'm going to try welding in a couple of expansion joints, and maybe sectioning the header flange.[/quote']
That is exactly what you will have to do! Make it like the Euro Manifold: Add a joint to the last cylinder, and a joint to the front two. The center didn't seem to walk all that much when we tried to stress-relieve JeffP's.
We went through two bottles of gas running a #4 rosebud and introduced reverse stresses past the warpage (like head straightening) and we still couldn't get it straight. We had that baby HOT! Burnt off the coating matter of fact.
We came to the same conclusion: if there were two joints in there like the stock euro turbo manifold, the warpage in the center section would be managable as it was very minimal. Those two outliers are the cylinders that pull away from the head and introduce the stresses leading to crackage.
Crackage, you know, like Pauly Shore and "Grindage"?
Love the way that Mikuini Manifold moves the bodies up and away from the heat and gives you some room for the heat shielding you will later install.
Nice!
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And people complain about US Labor costs and Taxes! LOL
Such is the toll for living in the Social-Net Utopia I suppose...
That aside, what are the costs involved in hipping tools into Norway? A digital caliper (even from the dreaded Harbor Freight) isn't that bad, and if you can follow the instructions in the "How To" book you can/will save a lot of money and learn a lot in the process.
I digress to agree with Mike in that if you need the transportation, then you may have no choice but to pay for it, but having even rudimentary tools to check their work and recheck clearances will add peace of mind.
Digital Indicators from HF and Digital Calipers are one-button convertable to Metric, so you can use local specifications and convert quickly to compare to the English units in the "How To" book.
There really is no reason you can't assemble the engine yourself after the machine work is done. Gene Berg (VW's) was big on his customer's assembling his components, and it was like pulling teeth to get him to do a complete engine. His logic was that informed customers who know how it went together will be less likely to complain or ask niggling questions about this or that becasue they did it themselves, and in the process answer those types of questions.
With a dial indicator, digital caliper, magnetic base, and maybe a Mic you will have most all of what you will need to do engine setup and assembly, and the cost for tools will be less than $100, plus shipping and whatever customs charges you have coming into country. If needed, I can ship to you because I doubt HF ships overseas (http://www.harborfreight.com). Once you have the basic stuff, you find all sorts of things to use them on!
As for dyno tuning, anywhere form half a day to a day at $150 an hour if the shop is doing all the tuning. Can be half that if you are doing the tuning, and they are just supplying the wideband, dyno, and operator.
Good Luck on the project. Come to think of it, Harbor Freight is still open, I'm going to check out that digital indicator...bye!
Que Horrible!
in MegaSquirt
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If it was a reset, I would have some direction. This SOB will stumble, then the injection led simply shuts off and the tach dies----meaning in a 260 at least, that the output to the coil has stopped as well.
Datalogs show one bin where the RPM will be "0", with proper values on either side.
Datalogged yesterday, and found some spiking to high limits of the rpm range? But has anyone had "dave cap" issues using the 82/83 CAS assembly? Or the 81 For that matter? I mean, tach interference is one thing....
BAH!
I mean, If the clock was resetting, I could at least SEE an indication!
I don't even get that! It's not a stumbling reset, just like something is freaking out the program, and no matter how long I let it idle, the dam thing will NOT get better, until I shut the switch off and then turn it back on.
If I had more than a few hours every few months to work at this and keep current it would be one thing. I mean, it sat for 7 months when I was off to Venezuela, and fired right up and I drove it up to the front of the property (albiet on battery power) no problem.
What about connecting a battery charger? Sometimes this causes a "runaway" spark/injection situation. I can't have the MS powered on when I connect the battery charger. Jumping it from another battery is fine, but not a charger. Sometimes.....
Conductive hose would be nice! Save for that eraly on warning someone on the Yahoo Groups site gave us about conductive tubing inside the box causing problems---that's why I used Vinyl Tube, and then had an adapter placed inline to stick an orifice if needed, and then the black tubing to the engine bay.
I may try another box someone nearby has. I was reluctant to use his box due to the reprogramming required because he will be running "fuel only" but at this point I don't know what else to try.
I have another box, my confidence level is not high in the item. Not high at all.
Man, I would kill to have resets again. At least then ther eis a problem I can see to attack. This sh*t is ridiculous!
Oh, and I hate a MAF, and packaging it. I likes my straight tubes....