SR20DET 72 240z build

[TheMission]

I'm sure he'll dig up a block around... heck, cheap shouldn't be an issue now.

 

There's at least 12k or so in that thing now even at cost and without labor. Wilwood, BRIDE, NARDI, NRG, T3... forget about how much it costs to get a new block as far as you've spent already, that's change. Heck, sell the seat and get 2 blocks.

 

There are places if you just want big power you could or could have trimmed cost wise to get you there and keep you there. I seem to see you want to be more functional go orientated... but God help me if you run takata harnesses with those BRIDE seats, as that's just $$$ for more HP and less bling!

 

It's a nice build, but man is there a lot of money in it, even while getting things at cost.

[itzgoten]

Can you find another stock long block cheap? Or at least cheap-ish?

 

Just as luck has it. I called a guy today and he had a spare block and crank for 250.. and complete head for 200.. so that's saving me a lot of money.. we'll see what BC says when he gets my shipment.. I'm pretty sure I'm going to hear "all of your parts are shot to $*!t and you'll need to replace them all"

 

Cams are like 350

1 Rod about 120

New Pistons w/ rings 560

 

Then it's just a matter of sourcing the right size bearings which is no problem.

 

I'm sure he'll dig up a block around... heck, cheap shouldn't be an issue now.

 

There's at least 12k or so in that thing now even at cost and without labor. Wilwood, BRIDE, NARDI, NRG, T3... forget about how much it costs to get a new block as far as you've spent already, that's change. Heck, sell the seat and get 2 blocks.

 

There are places if you just want big power you could or could have trimmed cost wise to get you there and keep you there. I seem to see you want to be more functional go orientated... but God help me if you run takata harnesses with those BRIDE seats, as that's just $$$ for more HP and less bling!

 

It's a nice build, but man is there a lot of money in it, even while getting things at cost.

 

Mission, THANK YOU! You totally know where I am coming from. This is a NO BS build. No wasted $$ on unneeded parts. And the Takata harnesses are the perfect example. That's engine $$.. no useless bling needed. I wouldn't have gotten the NRG but my fatass can't get out with the roll cage unless I remove the steering wheel. I do like nice things but I'm not impratical. They call me Mr. Functional because if it doesn't make the car faster, balanced or overall better.. it's not going on the car.

 

Granted I did spend some $$ on a paint job (inside and out) and I got a nice steering wheel and gauges.. but I use it everday and didn't want a ratrod style car.

 

You are absolutely correct. I've gone too far now so no turning back.. And if I had to count total dollars spent.. I'm way past 35k already from start to finish.. and since the new SR I have not paid a penny in labor and almost all parts are at dealer price or discounted. It's the final stretch and I'm determined to make it happen.. We'll see where I'm at in a few weeks.

Edited August 4, 2011 by itzgoten

[ZmattZ]

what front grill are you running? is that just the "upper grill"?

[itzgoten]

what front grill are you running? is that just the "upper grill"?

 

yes.. just the stock grill

[mr jdm]

Your car is nice, your one of the guys I wouldn't mind meeting off this board, and the pictures of both our cars would come out sick.

 

On a side note, I am strongly consider throwing on a VVL head over this winter. If your going for good power and want to rev to 8500-9k rpm without to much work, that might be the way to go.

[itzgoten]

Your car is nice, your one of the guys I wouldn't mind meeting off this board, and the pictures of both our cars would come out sick.

 

On a side note, I am strongly consider throwing on a VVL head over this winter. If your going for good power and want to rev to 8500-9k rpm without to much work, that might be the way to go.

 

Hey, I felt the same way when I saw your post. Super clean build and very similar to mine.

 

About the VVT head. My tuner high advised AGAINST it. Yes you can make power but he said that they are known to fail over the s13 sr head. But I guess that's expected when you have more "features".

 

I know I can make a little less power than you with my last build. When I rebuild it back and get the motor broken in I'll be able to see what kind of numbers I can make. I'm sure I'll be around your 500hp mark as well. My main thing is that I do NOT want to run higher than 91 because this will be my daily and I don't feel like going out of the way to get e85 or 100..

 

Thanks again for the props.. too bad you're so far away! hehe

[mr jdm]

You have the s14 vvt head confused with a neo VVL head.

 

VVL head comes on fwd sr20's only, boosted they make great power just like k20's, and can rev to 8500-9k rpm. VVL is Nissans response to VTEC, Swapping the fwd VE head on a RWD block doesn't take to much work. Its a much better head design, and they dont throw rockers.

 

Your going to daily your car? ah man, I drove my car once 4 days in a row and thought that was more than enough, I wouldn't have the heart to daily a first gen z that you spend time putting together.

 

Edited August 12, 2011 by mr jdm

[mr jdm]

BTW, if you ever need parts again, I always usually have some spares for an SR laying around.

[itzgoten]

Crappers! I wish you told me sooner. I just went on a 1 hour trip north from me to grab a block and crank just now. I'm going to have to rebuild. So that motor you're showing me is like the FWD Sentra motor? Because I see the CAS/Dizzy is in the back, opposed to the front exhaust side. Well either way the head I spent a lot of money on is already done.

 

But if you can PM me some clear cut examples of the heads and my gains? I always assumed I couldn't use any other head except the S14 SR head.

 

I've had a SR since 2004 but never really built one inside out. I just found out about the S15 timing chain cover/oil pump and grooving the main journals to use the GTiR main bearings instead. I think this time around after I send my block out I'm going to see if they can do that for me so I get better lubercation for the crank.

 

As far as parts.. I might need to replace my lifters (since the new ones I have were covered in metal shavings and I don't want to risk it) and rocker arms.

 

Thanks again!

[itzgoten]

So I picked up a "new" block and crank last week for pretty cheap and I just ordered all of the replacement parts from Brian Crower. I should be getting new set of rods, pistons and cams. Sad part is.. they couldn't even sell me just one rod. BC said that the rods have changed in weight since my model was released. The newer rods are a bit heavier now. Since that was the case I had to buy a set of 4. He was cool enough to get me cost on all of the parts since I initially purchased from them.

 

On a better note. I got the head looked at and everything was salvageable. They has to hot tank the head 3 times just to get all of the metal and debris out. The cam journals polished out beautifully and I'm just relieved that I didn't have to spend more money on a new head. Quite a bit of change was spent on the port and polish, port matching to the intake manifold, etc.

 

I'll have pictures of everything when it all comes in. Hopefully it won't be too long before I'm back on the road. I hope to make it to at least another track day before the summer is over.

Edited August 20, 2011 by itzgoten

[TheMission]

Best of luck.... Expensive learning curve you got there. That's why I'm keeping my feet closer to the ground. I'll be happy with 300-350 tops. More Power=More Problems

 

BTW - Got my build thread back up. Not as much power off the bat, but I've got 3-4k to come up with to even get to 350

[itzgoten]

Well I am hoping that this time will go smoothly. It was an expensive learning curve indeed! But you know what? I'm motivated so I'm determined to make this happen. And now after Mr. JDM went and told me about the sr20vet I'm wishing I met him a few years sooner. I will probably have to muster up the courage one more time and build a SR23VET and put it into a track car. Probably a S13 or S14 chassis this time though..

 

I also took out my oil pump gear for fun just to see how bad it was.. OMG.. total failure. It was so scuffed up and the inner part of the gears were "dimpled" from crushing the metal particles that were flowing through it. I guess after seeing all the damage it would only make sense to have that many things break.

[gk666]

personally I think the ka is a better motor than the sr but that's a different argument..... nice car though!, it hurts to hear you say you bought the full race manifold and it didn't fit... that so expensive it makes me cringe lol

Edited August 20, 2011 by gk666

[itzgoten]

personally I think the ka is a better motor than the sr but that's a different argument..... nice car though!, it hurts to hear you say you bought the full race manifold and it didn't fit... that so expensive it makes me cringe lol

 

Both motors have their pros and cons.. I had an SR since 2004 and when I had the car I didn't know much about tuning. People who owned KA's were blowing their motors left and right tying to boost them. It felt smarter just getting something that was already boosted stock. I still feel that the SR is a safer platform than the KA but my buddies running KA-T's do make a crap ton of torque. If life gives you oranges.. make orange juice.. So I guess that is why I'm squeezin' out the SR juice..

[Matt K]

KA=garbage. Was not meant to be boosted, doesn't last even when built properly.

[Gollum]

KA=garbage. Was not meant to be boosted, doesn't last even when built properly.

 

Gotta love blanket statements...

 

You know, most production motors were "never meant to be boosted" and never came as such from the factory. That doesn't stop people from boosting them, reliably at that, and making gangtons of power. Take a look at the 80's ford 5.0 motor. Never intended to be boosted, yet people boost them all the time and put down over 400hp to the wheels for years on end without reliability issues, and that's more than double stock power!

 

The KA is a huge 2.4 liter, and Nissan Japan never had a use for a 4 cylinder that large due to displacement taxes. They'd rather use a smaller motor and add a turbo if needed, while here in america we'll just take the torque from a large 2.4 and be happy. The Accord is a perfect example. Most people never miss the V6 when they have the 4 cylinder because it's got plenty of getup for most people. So we've never seen a turbocharged honda in the states.

 

So to make huge blanket statements is not only narrow minded, but it's borderline against the very thing we're about here on hybridZ. If this site were like most of the net then people doing SR20DET swaps wouldn't be welcome here, because we'd only be allowed to talk about SBC conversions. But instead this is an open minded forum in which people are allowed to express what THEY want to do, and people that share what's "stupid" or "can't be done" is widely discouraged.

 

Fact: People make tons of power from turbocharged KA motors

Fact: Most of those people have fully aftermarket internals

Fact: Stock KA internals won't hold a ton of boost

Fact: Stock KA crank doesn't like to be revved high

Fact: Many blown KA's are from revs, not HP

 

So there's some DATA to get people to coming to THEIR OWN conclusion about something. Some might look at those facts and say "I don't think I want a KA" and that's more than fine! Some might say "I think I'll take up that adventure" and that's fine TOO!!!

 

Sorry for the thread jack. I just can't stand posts that give short single sided opinions with little to no data to show why they think that. If the mods want, feel free to delete both posts and I'll be on my merry way.

[itzgoten]

KA=garbage. Was not meant to be boosted, doesn't last even when built properly.

 

Matt,

I have two buddies with KA-T's and they both make as much power as I do but way more torque. I probably even spent a bit more than them on the SR.. I don't think KA's are garbage but I'd never buy/build one.. Hell.. my s13 never even had a KA in it to begin with. LOL

 

Gotta love blanket statements...

[......]

Sorry for the thread jack. I just can't stand posts that give short single sided opinions with little to no data to show why they think that. If the mods want, feel free to delete both posts and I'll be on my merry way.

 

Gollum,

LOL.. Stike a nerve or what?

 

BTW.. I can't make it to that BBQ anymore some other plans got in the way. Maybe next time or at a smaller meet! Hopefully by then my Z will be back up

[Matt K]

Gotta love blanket statements...

 

You know, most production motors were "never meant to be boosted" and never came as such from the factory. That doesn't stop people from boosting them, reliably at that, and making gangtons of power. Take a look at the 80's ford 5.0 motor. Never intended to be boosted, yet people boost them all the time and put down over 400hp to the wheels for years on end without reliability issues, and that's more than double stock power!

 

The KA is a huge 2.4 liter, and Nissan Japan never had a use for a 4 cylinder that large due to displacement taxes. They'd rather use a smaller motor and add a turbo if needed, while here in america we'll just take the torque from a large 2.4 and be happy. The Accord is a perfect example. Most people never miss the V6 when they have the 4 cylinder because it's got plenty of getup for most people. So we've never seen a turbocharged honda in the states.

 

So to make huge blanket statements is not only narrow minded, but it's borderline against the very thing we're about here on hybridZ. If this site were like most of the net then people doing SR20DET swaps wouldn't be welcome here, because we'd only be allowed to talk about SBC conversions. But instead this is an open minded forum in which people are allowed to express what THEY want to do, and people that share what's "stupid" or "can't be done" is widely discouraged.

 

Fact: People make tons of power from turbocharged KA motors

Fact: Most of those people have fully aftermarket internals

Fact: Stock KA internals won't hold a ton of boost

Fact: Stock KA crank doesn't like to be revved high

Fact: Many blown KA's are from revs, not HP

 

So there's some DATA to get people to coming to THEIR OWN conclusion about something. Some might look at those facts and say "I don't think I want a KA" and that's more than fine! Some might say "I think I'll take up that adventure" and that's fine TOO!!!

 

Sorry for the thread jack. I just can't stand posts that give short single sided opinions with little to no data to show why they think that. If the mods want, feel free to delete both posts and I'll be on my merry way.

 

See, you support my opinion!

 

No worries either way. I absolutely hate the KA, and won't make any qualms about it. Tiny ring lands that don't hold up to boost, crappy distributor setup, lack of tuning options unless you want to spend big on a standalone. I've got my own experience & reasons for it, going back 10 years. I can't stand when people blast the SR for "having no torque"...99% of the time, they have zero experience with one. Since you want some good data, here's a local "built" KADE+T

 

(total rebuild .20 over, 740cc injector nismo, jim wolf ecu, forged everything. 8.9:1 ratio, edt mani, 38mm wastgate, turbosmart, blow off valve, ebay piping

port polish, stainless steel valves, 255 wlbo fp, 52 mm garrett turbo, 3 inch downpipe with catback)

 

 

For comparison, here's a STOCK SR, with FMIC, 3" exhaust with converter, Walbro 255, SAFC tweaked to 12 psi.

 

 

The built KA, with a bigger turbo, more cubic inches, etc. made only 25 hp & 21 ft lbs more than a stock S13 redtop with stock turbo, injectors, etc.

 

I can throw up a crapload more of these to show my point, which is the SR just makes more sense. By the time you've actually done enough work to make the KA a "better" choice, you've spent more to do so. 90% of the 240sx guys stay with the KA in order to save money, but in order to do it right, pretty much everything needs to be replaced internally, and you're going to need to spend some coin on all the supporting equipment (turbo, manifold, fuel system, ecu, etc). A completely stock SR can be tweaked to reliably support the same as this built KA shown above. We all have our own opinions, based on our experiences. This is mine, sorry to thread jack...

 

 

Keep up the good work, izgoten!

Edited August 22, 2011 by Matt K

[Gollum]

See, you support my opinion! (just as long as we see that it's an opinion, not just a blanket STATEMENT that KA's are garbage, which is what you said)

 

No worries either way. I absolutely hate the KA, and won't make any qualms about it. Tiny ring lands that don't hold up to boost,(fixable w/pistons) crappy distributor setup,(edis) lack of tuning options unless you want to spend big on a standalone.(MS2 is cheap and has been proven to work fine and will control the edis too) I've got my own experience & reasons for it, going back 10 years. (which I won't argue against, again you're allowed to do whatever you want in your own car) I can't stand when people blast the SR for "having no torque"...99% of the time, they have zero experience with one.(I'm obviously not one of those, I'm just being devils advocate for an engine that's worth being defended) Since you want some good data, here's a local "built" KADE+T

 

(total rebuild .20 over, 740cc injector nismo, jim wolf ecu, forged everything. 8.9:1 ratio, edt mani, 38mm wastgate, turbosmart, blow off valve, ebay piping

port polish, stainless steel valves, 255 wlbo fp, 52 mm garrett turbo, 3 inch downpipe with catback) (at what PSI? without that this dyno is worthless to me. Does that sheet read .97 1.03 & 1.15? If so there should be more power spread between the dynos, which suggest that none of those were optimized for those psi levels. More details please.)

 

 

For comparison, here's a STOCK SR, with FMIC, 3" exhaust with converter, Walbro 255, SAFC tweaked to 12 psi.

 

 

The built KA, with a bigger turbo, more cubic inches, etc. made only 25 hp & 21 ft lbs more than a stock S13 redtop with stock turbo, injectors, etc.

 

I can throw up a crapload more of these to show my point, which is the SR just makes more sense. By the time you've actually done enough work to make the KA a "better" choice, you've spent more to do so. 90% of the 240sx guys stay with the KA in order to save money, but in order to do it right, pretty much everything needs to be replaced internally, and you're going to need to spend some coin on all the supporting equipment (turbo, manifold, fuel system, ecu, etc). A completely stock SR can be tweaked to reliably support the same as this built KA shown above. We all have our own opinions, based on our experiences. This is mine, sorry to thread jack...

 

 

Keep up the good work, izgoten!

 

Comments in bold above.

 

Just to bring some contrast to what CAN be done with a KA for cheap (which is a big reason many go with them) this car was built by a member here, for a total cost (car in all) for under $1500. Stock longblock, at 25psi

 

 

 

You can read about it here:

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/79096-ka24de-into-240z-swap-completed-with-turbo/page__hl__grassroots

 

Now, I agree that the SR makes "more sense" in many ways. That DOES NOT MAKE the KA a "garbage" motor or choice. There are many worse motors I can think of that I wouldn't put into my car.

 

That being said, the KA makes TONS of sense in a few arenas. When built under a high budget with time an energy put into every detail they offer more cubes and a head that can flow gangbusters. When building something super cheap with 300hp as a goal, they're much easier to get a hold of for very cheap and that can make all the difference in a build.

 

Though the SR will require less parts to support power, in my mind it's better suited to that in-between power reals, from 300hp on up to 600hp. Beyond that I think you're better off in some ways with the KA who's shortcomings can be overcome.

 

If you want a "garbage" motor to argue about let's talk about the Ford lima 4 cylinder, which I would still argue is not a bad motor up to the 250-300hp range.... Or how about honda motors that can't make 50% more power turbocharged versus NA without rods bending. Or how about some of the open deck 4 cylinders that won't hold more than 125hp per liter before needing to be converted to closed deck.

 

So my point blank observation is that there are many worse options in the world than the KA, so just saying they're garbage seems a bit extreme.

[mr jdm]

What most people dont realize is the cost of building a Z car doesn't go into the motor. Its getting your rust taken care, new paint, new weatherstrips, deciding if you are going with a fuel cell and running braided lines. Getting gauges, seats, suspension, brakes.

 

On another note, what is up with that dyno chart