Nelsonian Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 I agree 100% with everything FricFrac and others have pointed out. Wrap the exhaust mani, and turbo inducer side as well as downpipe. Try to contain as much of the heat source as possible. I did a similar approach to what fricfrac did with his intake. Removed the top cap to get at it from the inside and ported the runners opening them up. I removed bosses and cleaned up the exterior for a final polish. I put it aside for awhile to focus on other aspects of the rebuild, but will continue in the near future. I had the turbo housing and ex mani 2000* powder coated silver. I plan on wrapping the ex mani and downpipe with DEI titanium wrap as well as the diaper for the turbo. I also plan on making a small heat shield with dei wrap for the brake cylinder components. Just trying to eliminate as much heat as possible for efficiency and longevity of parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlerMonkey Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Remember that it's possible to kill the lifespan of certain components by not letting them shed heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neveragain55 Posted November 13, 2011 Author Share Posted November 13, 2011 Wow you guys are good, Thanks for the encouraging words Fric Frac, I'll definitely be posting my progress with this. Nelsonian, It looks like you've gone through this ritual as well with very good results, but let me as both you and Fric Frac something. What do you guys think about HowlerMonkeys comment about not allowing certain components to shed heat? Seems like one of those dammed if you do, damned if you don't scenarios to me. Howler Monkey, Are talking about not allowing the turbo itself to shed heat or other components? Seems like a good topic to explore.............. Thanks guys............... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelsonian Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 From bits of pieces of info gathered while reading other related posts, I concluded that it is far greater a benefit to contain exhaust heat from a thermal exhaust flow standpoint. Another benefit naturally would be more longevity of the ancilliary components in the direct heat path residing close to the turbo, ex mani,(fuel rail,inj,brake components,etc..). The only main negative or adverse effects I recall reading about occured with some people hot coating na headers, and (iirc), it was Pacesetter products deteriorating much quicker than they normally seem to do. I certainly hope I am correct in my approach to combat the heat that my turbo will make, especially for my plans of autocrossing the never ending project. Would love to hear from others who definitively know the answer to your query. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neveragain55 Posted November 14, 2011 Author Share Posted November 14, 2011 I have nowhere near the knowledge you have in this field Nelsonian. The only experience I have regarding heat and turbo’s stems from my brief ownership of my first Z car which was an 83 280ZX Turbo when I lived in Florida some years ago. On the more excruciatingly hot days (which were many) the car would run poorly. The Z-Car gurus that I met down there all told me that turbo’s don’t like heat, and as such don’t perform very well unless the heat is contained some way. I’ve seen many posts here in Hybrid and other Z-Car forums where owners went with wrapping, jet coating, and other means of containing the heat that emits from the turbo. Connecticut doesn’t suffer from the same intense heat as Florida obviously and as I stated in my initial post, I don’t plan on increasing the horsepower much more than stock or modifying anything that would increase heat or pressure regarding the engine. At minimum, I plan on making some type of heat shield to protect the master bake cylinder and beefing up the intake manifold heat shield with an added layer of protection the way Fric Frac did. I’m a little undecided on wrapping the turbo in some type of thermal wrap but I’m at the infancy stages of this build so anything can change over time. I’d love to hear from other’s regarding the “too much heat containment might be a bad thing†argument that HowlerMonkey raised because I think it’s worth exploring, especially if certain components will prematurely wear out if they can’t release the heat they create. Everyone seems so intent on containing heat with little thought of what that containment might mean to the turbo over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 Most heat containment schemes dealing with the turbo handle it by containing it to the turbine section. In the process, it lowers heat transfer to the water/oil side center section---which would actually increase lifetime. Thermal stress cracking and failure of turbos these days is a non-issue unless you have some serious fuel control problems (or timing)--in that case, it's the root cause, not putting ceramic or a blanket over it. What likely is being talked about is the increased corrosion, and heat induced warpage for manifolds, or headers. A lot of this can be traced to other factors, like using mild steel and wrapping with moisture absorbing wraps...really accelerates rust flaking and eventual failure. Jet-Hotting that same manifold before wrapping it will negate the previous problems. It's usually more a mis-application of the wrap than retention of heat in the component that causes the problems. MAnifold warpage can be due to many things, and people tend to blame it on whatever they can see first. If it's inherent in the component to begin with, getting it hotter can aggravate it, but then again keeping it wrapped to keep the heat in longer after shutdown adds to a stress-relief action which should fight warpage... But if you unevenly wrap it, and have exposed metal showing that can cool quickly... Again, misapplication root caused damage being blamed on the product itself. If you put in 'correctly applied' heat retention/blankets/wraps I would say it won't appreciably affect anything. In fact, due to the SLOWER thermal cycling after shutdown, one might argue that wraps PROLONG component life through less drastic changes while cooling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlerMonkey Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 Airflow through the engine compartment is very important as well especially when concerning parking a hot car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neveragain55 Posted November 15, 2011 Author Share Posted November 15, 2011 (edited) Excellent reply and write up Tony D, very informative and filled with great ideas about how to best go about keeping things cool under the hood. I’m probably going to go the route you outlined, Jet-Hotting the exhaust manifold and have it properly, professionally wrapped in a good quality thermal material and I’ll wrap the section of the turbo that you described. MonkeyHowler makes a good point with keeping air flowing through and under the hood which is why Nissan went with the MSA style air dam on the hood of the turbo cars that funneled cool air to the turbo area. Question: A. Is there a similar style MSA air duct that can be put on the existing hood of a 1977 280Z? Thanks for all the input guys; it’s all very appreciated….. Edited November 15, 2011 by Neveragain55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 (edited) Engine cooling through vents etc has been done to death over on this subforum http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/forum/47-windtunnel-test-results-and-analysis/ As far as retaining heat in a turbo consider what happens to the turbo oil after shut down. My theory is that the oil is more likely to overheat and so leave deposits in the turbo the longer it retains heat once oil circulation ceases. Edited November 15, 2011 by 260DET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelsonian Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Thank you for adding important info regarding heat containment. ^^ Definitely alot of info on venting.. I'm taking this approach of louvered inspection lids and welded in flush stock zx naca duct over the turbo. I'm still debating on making small openings on both sides where the battery box and across would reside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neveragain55 Posted November 15, 2011 Author Share Posted November 15, 2011 260DET, Thanks for the info and the link, I looked through most of it and saw a picture of someone who simply installed what looked like a large diameter flexi-hose that is positioned in the lower valance area and snakes up to the turbo. I think this would be just as, if not more-so effective than cutting a hole in the roof and installing an air duct. You’re directly funneling cool air straight to the turbo by using this method………… Kinda reminds me of the direct funneling method GM used in their early firebirds to get more air to the air cleaner. (a poor man's forced air induction system) As far as the heat in the turbo impacting the oil once the car has been shut off – I don’t see any guaranteed way of assuring that all of the oil won’t be affected. I think there has to be a balance of keeping the turbo cool without causing the turbo to self implode by containing said heat. Nelsonian, Without sounding like a hypocrite, I love what you did with your hood and the vent looks great, but I think I’m going to try to funnel cool air to the turbo via some type of metal flexible hose. If there are too many other components blocking the way or it just doesn't work, I'll look into doing exactly what you did. It looks great. Thanks guys......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FricFrac Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Take look at the stock vent and how the heat shielding around the brake booster, etc works on the stock 280ZXT - it's actually very well thought out. It blows my mind why duct work on cars its completely overlooked in almost any modified turbo car I've looked at. Some simple ducting will greatly improve cooling. Instead people try and shove as large an intercooler as possible when one half the size with proper ducting will outperform and allow the radiator to still function. I'm a rank amature when it comes to cars but if you use two brain cells at a time and read and research this stuff should be a no brainer... Something to think about with regards to heat wraping. Thermal contraction will be slower AND the difference in temperature from the inside of the turbo to the outside air will also have a smaller difference - those are two things that PREVENT stress. Good point about the moisture as that is the main issue. I would recomend painting with a high temp like Por 20 (good up to 1400F) or something that can take substantial heat at the very least or ceramic coating if you want to shell out for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlerMonkey Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Proper routing of water cooling lines on the turbo might get you a bit of residual coolant flow through convection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FricFrac Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Proper routing of water cooling lines on the turbo might get you a bit of residual coolant flow through convection. ...or a turbo timer would give you WAY better results than you could ever squeeze out of convection... assuming you're not using a stock 280ZX turbo since they don't use water cooling.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neveragain55 Posted November 18, 2011 Author Share Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) Fric Frac, I agree with everything your saying. I spend a lot of time at Lime Rock Race Park in Connecticut in the summer’s and I’ve seen many race cars with heat resistant flexible tubing that runs from the front lower valance area, snaking its way up to various parts of the engine that the drivers are trying to keep cool. The NACA style duct on the Turbo ZX cars works brilliantly and I love the mod Nelsonian did to his hood, but I don’t have the resources or welding capabilities to pull that off so I’m going to try to route cool air to the turbo via the tubing. I’m also going to warp the turbo, exhaust manifold, and hope for the best. I’ve seen lots of intercooler set ups and honestly, some of them look a bit overblown and overdone. I think some guys do it more for the "wow" factor or the look than the functionality. HowlerMonkey, My donor engine came out of an 82 ZX Turbo car and the turbo itself is your basic garden variety stock unit without water coolant lines. I believe the balance I’m striking by wrapping the exhaust & turbo along with funneling cool air to the turbo via flexible tubing will keep things cool enough for the average Sunday driving I plan on doing with the car. My day's of romping on the gas, burning through tires, and coming home with 5 speeding tickets in one day are waaaaaaaay behind me (yes, 5 in one day) Edited November 18, 2011 by Neveragain55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FricFrac Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I think you could improve the stock 280ZX a bit with some weather striping to get a better seal on the incoming NACA ducting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neveragain55 Posted November 18, 2011 Author Share Posted November 18, 2011 I think you might be a little confused Fric Frac, I don’t have a S130 ZX, I have an older S30 Z that I’m putting a ZX Turbo motor into. Hence, I don’t have the ZX hood with the air duct; I have the older hood without the turbo air duct. To your point however, extra insulation would help with a stock set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FricFrac Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I think you might be a little confused Fric Frac, I don’t have a S130 ZX, I have an older S30 Z that I’m putting a ZX Turbo motor into. Hence, I don’t have the ZX hood with the air duct; I have the older hood without the turbo air duct. To your point however, extra insulation would help with a stock set up. True I did think you had an S130 since you were posting in the S130 forum lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neveragain55 Posted November 18, 2011 Author Share Posted November 18, 2011 No worries mate.......... And thanks for all your help and advice, it helped a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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