Jesse OBrien Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 All these rusty old fasteners are getting old, and I'm ready to just bulk-order some stainless bolts. I've been through a big pile of m8-1.25 bolts on the n42 that I've been wrenching on lately, but it seems to make sense that I reach out to the community for what common bolt sizes are really needed. Right now I'm just looking at m6-1.0 and m8-1.25 in various lengths from 10mm to 60mm, and I believe they're just a2 stainless (not incredibly strong, but sufficient for most applications). I'm looking for a bit of everything, from transmission bolts to engine bolts to timing cover bolts to radiator securing bolts to fender bolts to seat bolts to hatch bolts ... essentially if something rusty comes out, I plan to replace it with something I won't have to worry about again. I did some searching, but couldn't find a thread that had any hard facts in this area and I'd rather not spend all day with my thread measurement gauge figuring out what to order if someone's already been through it. My current order: m6-1.0 - 25 of each length from 10mm to 60mm in 10mm increments (10mm, 20mm, 30mm, 40mm, 50mm, 60mm) m8-1.25 - 25 of each length from 10mm to 60mm m10-1.25 - 25 of each length from 10mm to 60mm washers - 50 of each diameter lock washers - 50 of each diameter nuts - 25 of each thread pattern studs - I haven't taken any measurements yet, but I'd DEFINITELY like to replace the intake manifold studs Misc. fastener data: I've discovered that ARP camshaft bolts for a GM LS* fit the Datsun pressure plate perfectly (order two kits), and ARP flywheel bolts from a Toyota 3m-GTE fit the Datsun flywheel perfectly. I haven't load-tested these, but don't see any reason for them to fly apart and kill puppies (I believe that a high-strength fastener is a high-strength fastener, but correct me if I'm wrong). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 (edited) "Bolt Science" website...it will keep you busy for a week. Then the aberrational quote "a high strength fastener is a high strength fastener" can be edited with the appropriate amount of shame due for it being uttered in the first place. Similarly, the comment about "lock" washers... Edited May 18, 2013 by Tony D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse OBrien Posted May 18, 2013 Author Share Posted May 18, 2013 Aw man, I was hoping for SOMETHING to simply be what it appears to be, and not require additional knowledge/experience. Surely there are some fasteners that matter, and some that don't, at least? For applications like holding a valve cover on, or attaching spark plug wires, I don't imagine engineering would make much of a difference since the stress levels are so low. Give me a couple weeks, I'm now convinced that I'm not even aware of what I don't know at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 (edited) look: http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/89828-stainless-steel-bolt-kit-z-car-creations/ also: http://mmsacc-stainless.com/html/Datsun.htm and:http://www.zcarcreations.com/downloads/ZCC_ssbolt_20070701.pdf Google rules Edited May 18, 2013 by Miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse OBrien Posted May 18, 2013 Author Share Posted May 18, 2013 look: http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/89828-stainless-steel-bolt-kit-z-car-creations/ also: http://mmsacc-stainless.com/html/Datsun.htm and:http://www.zcarcreations.com/downloads/ZCC_ssbolt_20070701.pdf Google rules The best search engine I've ever found is called "other members" based on my experience. It looks like I could spend quite a bit on fasteners, but here in New England, traditional steel bolts tend to rust rather quickly (in my experience). I just heard back from the hardware guy I normally use, and while he has no idea if the stainless bolts he offers would be suitable for this application, he did say that they're 304 stainless and are rated for 100,000 psi. That sounds like a lot, but as we've already been over, "I just don't know what I don't know." I have a lot to learn still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xnke Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 Stainless bolts in aluminum threads are a no-no. Use anti-sieze if you insist upon them. Zinc-plated bolts for aluminum threads are my preference. Stainless bolts in mild steel threads will rust, eventually. Takes longer, but it will still happen. Stainless also work-hardens much faster, so anywhere you have vibrating loads will take a careful touch to remove the bolts later...they may snap off right under the head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse OBrien Posted May 18, 2013 Author Share Posted May 18, 2013 Stainless bolts in aluminum threads are a no-no. Use anti-sieze if you insist upon them. Zinc-plated bolts for aluminum threads are my preference. Stainless bolts in mild steel threads will rust, eventually. Takes longer, but it will still happen. Stainless also work-hardens much faster, so anywhere you have vibrating loads will take a careful touch to remove the bolts later...they may snap off right under the head. Why are stainless manifold studs so popular then? Is it just a mass misunderstanding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snailed Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 Is it just a mass misunderstanding? Pretty much. Stainless bolts on cars are a cosmetic change and often a degradation in function and serviceability in my opinion. That said, I use them where they will look nice and still do the job. It's nice to be able to chuck one in the drill and polish it to a near chrome finish quickly. It's all compromises. Caroll Smith has a nice book about fasteners if you want to understand them in more detail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galderdi Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 The original fasteners were often zinc plated. While I agree with the idea of replacing rusting fasteners I don't agree with the idea of replacing with stainless. The zinc acts as a sacrificial anode. It will generally corrode faster and slow the corrosion of the steel components of the car. If you remove all the zinc from your car you will increase the speed of corrosion on the rest of the car. Having said all that, you could still go with stainless fasteners and compensate with an actual zinc anode like used on boats. Food for thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socorob Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Another route is cleaning the ones you have. Eastwood makes a bolt cleaner to remove all the rust from your original bolts. Its like a rock tumbler. Just use antisieze on the bolts that you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse OBrien Posted May 20, 2013 Author Share Posted May 20, 2013 (edited) Pretty much. Stainless bolts on cars are a cosmetic change and often a degradation in function and serviceability in my opinion. That said, I use them where they will look nice and still do the job. It's nice to be able to chuck one in the drill and polish it to a near chrome finish quickly. It's all compromises. Caroll Smith has a nice book about fasteners if you want to understand them in more detail.It's on my to-read list, but I just received my book on SU's, along with "How to rebuild your Datsun l-series" and "How to modify your Datsun l-series" books. I also just received the book on road-car aerodynamics by the author of Autospeed. I'll get around to doing some more reading as time permits, and I'm definitely interested in learning more (fascinated by fasteners?). The original fasteners were often zinc plated. While I agree with the idea of replacing rusting fasteners I don't agree with the idea of replacing with stainless. The zinc acts as a sacrificial anode. It will generally corrode faster and slow the corrosion of the steel components of the car. If you remove all the zinc from your car you will increase the speed of corrosion on the rest of the car. Having said all that, you could still go with stainless fasteners and compensate with an actual zinc anode like used on boats. Food for thought That all makes sense, I was aware of zinc plating acting as a sacrificial anode, but hasn't really considered that it works in both directions (protecting the bolt and the chassis where it's being threaded into). I'm certainly not married to the idea of stainless steel. I'm going to go out on a limb and make a comparison that might be unrelated, but it seems to be in-line with this discussion. I've been through a pile of straight razors, trying to find the right one. I've tried multiple stainless blades, but they never really got a good sharp edge, and wouldn't hold a moderately-sharp edge for very long anyway. For a razor, sacrificing performance really isn't an option. If I have to oil a blade before storing it and spend a little more effort to keep it from rusting, that's just fine in my book. The advantages of stainless do not even begin to outweigh the performance advantages of good tool steel. However, my folding pocket knife is stainless. It sees all manner of abuse and it's more important that it have one side that has an edge-like surface than for it to be able to split hairs with ease. It regularly gets plunged in water and doesn't get cleaned for days at a time, and I see the advantages of stainless being much more beneficial than the improved edge properties of tool steel. I like to think that this comparison also applies to fasteners. The bolts inside an engine see lots of torque, but are bathed in oil so rust isn't really much of a concern relative to strength or heat expansion properties (or whatever other considerations are applicable). In places like the timing cover or distributor mount, I'm seeing a trend toward rusty bolts with gritty sludge baked into the bolt-holes. It really doesn't seem like overall strength would be too much of a concern in these areas, where it would be a big concern on something like the flywheel or rod bolts. It sounds like this is in-line with what you guys are saying (I could get away with stainless in some areas, but not others). Finding (reasonably-priced) zinc plated fasteners is not as easy as stainless fasteners (I haven't found anywhere that I can just order a bulk load of bolts in various sizes). Another route is cleaning the ones you have. Eastwood makes a bolt cleaner to remove all the rust from your original bolts. Its like a rock tumbler. Just use antisieze on the bolts that you can. That doesn't help when the heads of bolts rust off, or there isn't enough material left on the threads to run it through a die. Edited May 20, 2013 by Jesse OBrien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Finding (reasonably-priced) zinc plated fasteners is not as easy as stainless fasteners (I haven't found anywhere that I can just order a bulk load of bolts in various sizes). Have you looked at McMaster.com or Fastenal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dershum Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Out of curiosity, does anyone know if Z Car Creations still produces these kits? I've sent them a couple emails, but no response...and nothing on Ebay as far as I can tell. At least nothing that matches their User ID listed in the PDF and on their site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jethro Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 (edited) If anyone is still interested in this topic. I have ordered from here for replacement fasteners. There are yellow cad fasteners that are similar to stock Nissan parts. I personally like the yellow cad look better than stainless. http://www.clipsandfasteners.com/default.asp Lots to search through... here's a good one to get started with http://www.clipsandfasteners.com/Hex_Head_Sems_Bolt_M6_1_0X_16mm_p/a18177.htm Edited August 31, 2013 by Jethro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rejracer Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 As mentioned before, stainless is not the best to use on Aluminum. For Corrosion resistance I now nod to class 10.9 zinc coated bolts. The metal used in 10.9 bolts is more corrosion resistant that class 8.8. If it's something I want to stay in good shape, I use dielectric grease on the threads/shank where the application permits. Not all stainless bolts are equal. First off they have different grades, A2 being on of the grades. I've also found that if you closely examine the threads of a cheap stainless bolt the threads are rough, which is why they chew up aluminum so quickly. You can get good quality stainless fasteners, but they are very expensive. Any time you get dissimilar metals in contact with another, add a bit of moisture, you get corrosion. Keeping the disimilar metals away from each other, bolts properly cleaned, finished, and lubed will do much more for the buck than Stainless. With that said I still use stainless on a few non critical items, but I'm using it less and less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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