madkaw Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 (edited) The sleeve isn't supposed to rotate. The ID of the bushings are supposed to slide on the sleeve. When comparing outside the car, the sleeves will always be longer. Usually the problem is the opposite, that when installed the bushings are longer than the sleeve, and when you tighten the bolts down this pinches the bushings, increasing friction on the sleeve and creating a lot of stiction. The solution is to sand down the bushings so that there is very little squish on the bushings when it gets tightened up. If your sleeves are truly longer than the bushings when the bushings are installed you have a problem because the control arm can move forward and backwards, changing toe on the rear LCA. You say the sleeves are longer off the car, but it's bad if they are longer on the car? Edited August 21, 2013 by madkaw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 It's relative motion, whether the sleeve moves or the bushing moves there's always going to be movement between the two. What you don't want is axial preload on the bushings, for reasons that were already mentioned. Sorry Leon that didn't help. To me, the fact that the inner sleeve doesn't rotate causes axial load on the bushing. I guess I wonder why the urethane isn't just made the same ID as the control rod mounting point. Sorry I'm so dense on this guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Excuse me. Must have been that crack I smoked earlier. The sleeve is captured by the bolt so it doesn't move in the front. In the rear, it's captured on the control arm so it moves with the control arm, and the bushing stays stationary. What I was trying to say earlier was that the sleeve needs to be locked down tight. The bushings are not as long as the sleeve. But when you install the bushings in the arm or in the chassis, they are spaced out a bit and what you don't want is the bushing really squished in there when the bolt gets tightened. If the bushing is really squished, then it is squeezing the sleeve, and that makes it harder to move the control arm. Stiction in the suspension is bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osirus9 Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Excuse me. Must have been that crack I smoked earlier. The sleeve is captured by the bolt so it doesn't move in the front. In the rear, it's captured on the control arm so it moves with the control arm, and the bushing stays stationary. What I was trying to say earlier was that the sleeve needs to be locked down tight. The bushings are not as long as the sleeve. But when you install the bushings in the arm or in the chassis, they are spaced out a bit and what you don't want is the bushing really squished in there when the bolt gets tightened. If the bushing is really squished, then it is squeezing the sleeve, and that makes it harder to move the control arm. Stiction in the suspension is bad. oh crap, that's my problem right there. The bushings I put in were SUPER tight, but I was able to force them into place without TOO much trouble. I figured they were supposed to be like that... Time to take my spindle pins out again. At least this time I won't need a 5 ton press and an impact hammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 Jon, Appreciate you staying with me on this. I will revisit and verify what you have said. I don't know if you remember but I was running a heim joint set up that connected the rear control arms. I did this to clear a r200 LSD fin cover. The heim joints were connected( welded via a stud) to the rear cap bolts of the LCA. These joints made tie adjustments possible, but I am thinking that my design might be part of the issue. I no longer need this since I am running the Subby r180 , so I am going to put back the stock bracket , relube everything and slap it back together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I do remember that. It is nice to have the toe adjustment, but yeah, easy enough to swap it out and see if it was the rod ends squeaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLATA Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 This was mention at my local am coffee/gas meet>>>>>> it is working lets see if it will last Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted August 28, 2013 Author Share Posted August 28, 2013 During disassembly I noticed the passenger side LCA very hard to rotate on the axis of the spindle bolt. Infact, I can not move the LCA when the spindle nuts are tight. It seems to be the front outer bushing on the LCA is the hang up. Please look at the pics and tell me what you guys think is going on. The washer for the front outer has a groove in it and it is obviously not riding the way it should. The driver's side is stiff, but will rotate with the nuts tight. For some reason the bushing sleeves look different on the driver's side compared to passenger side. When I say different I mean the material of the sleeve. The passenger side looks zinc coated and the driver's side looks more like plain steel. The spindles were replaced on the this many moons ago, but not that many miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted August 28, 2013 Author Share Posted August 28, 2013 (edited) So I swapped around washers on the LCA's. Driver's side still moves around much easier even with the bad washer. The passenger side will not move when fully torqued. How hard should these LCA's pivot on the spindle? I can understand a little effort to move them, but this passenger side must be effecting my suspension travel -geometry. Passenger side also has the squeaks. Not sure what to do from here. Edited August 28, 2013 by madkaw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted August 28, 2013 Author Share Posted August 28, 2013 Took the spindle out and look what I found. The mounting surface for the LCA had a high spot where the bushing rode and the surface is indented or gouged where the sleeve rides. The high spot tore up the urethane flange and I imagine the worn area where the sleeve rides has diminished some of the sleeve length and causing the bushings to be pinched--agree???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted August 30, 2013 Author Share Posted August 30, 2013 Took another day of examining things. The driver's side was really no better. What was happening on both sides was that after torquing the spindle nuts down, I would rotate the LCA back and forth and it would turn the washer -thus lossening the nut. That in turn would loosen or free up the movement around the spindle. On both sides the sleeve was turning and eventually wore a gouge into my strut/spindle housing-bad I have ordered a new LCA urethane kit for the rear. It is very apparent that I didn't know what I was doing on my first install. I just took for granted that you pulled out the old and installed the new and you were done. That would be true if I atleast checked to see if the bushings were rotating or operating as they should. I did file down the spindle housing ends to start with a clean surface. I measured out the spacing and it will still be a tight squeeze with new spindle bushings. I think I took off 1mm off the spindle(strut) housing to get the surface flat. I will replace my worn washer. I guess I will assemble and torque the spindle side of the LCA first to check things over during rotation to make sure the washer is not rotating with the LCA. Hopefully someone will learn from my mistakes. I believe all these misteps have led to premature squeaks in the bushings. I probably don't have 12k miles on this car since rebuild Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewZed Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Those nuts are supposed to be self-locking. Maybe they're worn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooger82 Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I probably should have searched this before in case there was anything written up about it. But have you considered trying Whiteline bushings instead of the polyurethane ones. They use a "Synthetic Elastomer" which is supposed to not squeak or groan according to them. Also they don't require regreasing. I think I might try them out since my Energy Suspension bushings are beginning to annoy me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted August 30, 2013 Author Share Posted August 30, 2013 Those nuts are supposed to be self-locking. Maybe they're worn. Regardless if they are self locking or not, the bushing isn't correct if it is turning the washer - which in turn will rotate the nut loose. The nuts are self locking though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted September 8, 2013 Author Share Posted September 8, 2013 Ordered a urethane kit from prothane for the rear control arms. So i'm looking at the urethane bushings and noticed that the ID's have been slotted to hold grease-nice! I never did like the fact that the sleeve was such a tight fit on the bushing that it seemed that any lube put on there just oozed out when installing the sleeve inside the urethane. At least some of it will stay in there now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewZed Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 Regardless if they are self locking or not, the bushing isn't correct if it is turning the washer - which in turn will rotate the nut loose. The nuts are self locking though. I was just pointing out, indirectly, that transmitting 60 ft-lbs of torque through the urethane flange seems unlikely. There's something weird going on with your assembly of parts if the outer nuts are loosening, self-locking or not, if they're tightened to 60 ft-lbs.. The urethane might get squished and squeak but it seems unlikely to transmit that kind of torque. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted September 8, 2013 Author Share Posted September 8, 2013 (edited) Your right-somethings not right, and replacing the parts is where i'm starting-plus my new knowledge you guys have supplied. The only way i can explain is that the washer was riding squarely on the bushing flange after torqueing, because the sleeve is worn and undersized now. The large area of the washer is enough to hold the bushing which is leveraged by the LCA and loosen the nut.Once everything is loose, the nut doesn't loosen any further. Edited September 8, 2013 by madkaw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted September 18, 2013 Author Share Posted September 18, 2013 New bushings arrived and installed. New urethane bushings no squeaky! This time I ran the suspension threw its travel to see how freely the bushing were- and they worked smoothly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUNNY Z Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 Bah, who runs spindle pins anymore! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsommer Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 I always used anti seize on mine when rebuilding suspensions, never really noticed any squeaks that piqued my annoyance level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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