Complete floor/subframe/firewall transplant to pre-smog Datsun

[ThreeDeadZs]

I've been contemplating using a pre-smog body mated entirely to the suspension and running gear of a very modern car.  I've drawn out plans, taken photos of my own Supras and 240Z while on stands, measured, compared, etc.  This is still on the drawing board.  The goal, of course, is to find the easiest/cheapest connection point between old and new, with a limited budget - maybe $8K.  This budget is only for a drivable car that is complete using substantially used equipment.  Blueprinting an engine, updating turbo system and control, dyno tuning, suspension upgrades, and all such expenses would wait until the proof-of-concept is reliably on the road for a while.

 

Here's the plan, in general:
Shell of one body, subframes of another, maybe floor & firewall of the subframe donor, steering & dash may be from subframe donor, front and rear fascia & body electrical of either a good cosmetic choice, or the same as the subframe donor, engine may match subframe donor (meaning only two designs are involved) or could be entirely unrelated.  Exact combination depends on many factors. 

 

To all NaySayers:

Here's someone who did it.  He chose a Volvo P1800 body, a Lexus SC400 as complete donor, and required some tube framing.  He took two years in his garage to get it road-worthy, starting without blueprints but just cutting the cars up and doing it.  Kudos for pulling it off:

http://www.pro-touring.com/general/member-pro-touring-projects/got-volvo-73794.html
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/build-threads/548803-volvo-body-swap-build.html

 

Datsun examples worth considering:
S30 shell, subframes and additional equipment (maybe entire floor like the Volvo) come from a 350Z/G35/370Z; engine coudl be a VQ35DE, VH45DE, or SR20-DET as best examples.  To maintain 350Z geometry (which wins autocross) one must either extend the nose (tube frame) giving even more room for the engine without crossmember conflict and better weight distribution, or move the rear wheel wells back relative to the body, placed much as they are on a 350Z (low overhang).

260Z/280Z 2/2 (2+2) - unpopular body, but the wheelbase happens to approximate several modern options.  The 350Z theme could be used, but here's another good combination: due to Japanese tax incentives, the Lexus IS300 is narrowed, and therefore a very close match to use as subframe and floor donor (and additional equipment, depending on fitment), with either the stock 2JZ-GE VVTi from the IS300 (reuse all the wiring, gauges, and everything stock), 1UZ-FE V8 (perhaps using SC400 as donor instead for simplicity, though wider body), GR series V6, 2UR-GSE (IS-F engine, not in my price range but certainly worth a mention), and other engine options.

 

Datsun 1200 (B110) shell, Mazda Miata subframes (supposedly easy to work with, made for more weight than this finished project, good match of geometry, dead engine Miatas with suspension upgrades can be bought cheap), SR20DET, CA18DET, VQ35DE, or even the Frontier RWD QR25DE since stock power would be more than ample for a 2000lb car.  For that matter, an "old school" engine might be used.  Engine/transmission could be from any other donor; any small high-tech 4-banger that has a modern intercooled turbo kit available.
 

Obviously any of these could also take the GM LS1/T56 or newer with suspension mods, but I've focused entirely on Japanese (though still mix brands).

So the topic is... Could I do similar to the Volvo/Lexus project using a pre-smog Datsun and whatever donor seems the best match?

 

I concurrently am asking a question about fabrication cost on another thread, asking if outsourcing the fabrication to Mexico or further south could get the metal-work done cheaply but well.

 

[johnc]

You can but your $8k budget is unrealistic unless you can do all the fabrication work yourself.

[psdenno]

 

 

 

"So the topic is... Could I do similar to the Volvo/Lexus project using a pre-smog Datsun and whatever donor seems the best match?"

 

 

Let me add my rain to your parade.........No.  Nice dream, and I have great respect for dreamers, but the budget is unrealistic and you didn't mention your own metal working skill level and shop facility.  Farming the work out would jack the cost considerably.  BTW, the Volvo conversion appears to have used a 124 sedan body shell, not a P1800.

 

If you do go ahead with the project, keep us posted over the coming years.

Dennis

 

 

[ThreeDeadZs]

Let me add my rain to your parade.......BTW, the Volvo conversion appears to have used a 124 sedan body shell, not a P1800.

I smell urea, are you sure that's rain?  The P1800 was a sport model, the 124 a family sedan... so I checked again.  The guy wrote:

"its a '66 Volvo Amazon. They also called them a 122, or the sporty model was the 123GT"

[ThreeDeadZs]

Purpose of the car:

* I don't need to drive often, working from home, but this would be my only car.

* I always drive like a "bat out of hell."  I'm not sure why I feel in a hurry when I drive, but I do.  So pulling away from lights is important.

* I don't... I mean I try not to... drive over 90mph.

* low speed maneuverability.  I may compete in autocross again, having tried it once, but it really matches my style of driving.

* Ripping around the canyons; therefore collision avoidance and quick braking.  Sort of faster autocross, but with blind corners, logging trucks, and deer.

* Barely big enough to hold me (6'1.5", 185lbs), my dog (much bigger than me), and a load of groceries. 280Z's hatch is not quite big enough, so for that car I'd have to remove the passenger seat.

 

So low speed performance, fast reaction times, firm ride, quick braking, occasional autocross, and fit giant dog in hatch.

Edited August 30, 2013 by ThreeDeadZs

[ThreeDeadZs]

Okay, so my budget is inadequate (per two  people, anyway).  How about this?

What's the cheapest way to achieve my goals?

 

The Miata subframes are super easy (a few bolts, all on the same plane), the Datsun 1200 is about the same size and much lighter than a Miata with the added benefit of being pre-smog.

* The Miata complete floor may be the best option, so I get the whole instruments, electrical, and steering from a 1990's sportscar, and maybe I'm forced to use a Miata engine for the car's first iteration.

* It may be that modifying the 1200 floor sufficient to install the Miata subframes is the better way to go, and the car starts out with an A12, L16, or other old school engine that fits the 1200 body easily:
http://datsun1200.com/modules/mediawiki/index.php?title=Engine_Swaps

Per specifications on Wiki, this combination looks entirely beneficial:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datsun_1200

Wheelbase 2300 mm (90 in.)

Length 3830 mm (152 in.)

Width 1495 mm (59.6 in.)

Height 1390 mm (53.1 in.)

Curb Weight 700 kg (1640 lbs)

(most engine swap options will add at least 200lbs up front)

First Generation Miata (per Wiki)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miata#First_generation_.28NA.29

Wheelbase 89.37 in (2,270 mm)

Length 155.4 in (3,950 mm)

Width 65.9 in (1,670 mm)

Height 48.2 in (1,220 mm)

Curb Weight 940 kg (2,100 lb)

 

Both donors (a Miata with a trashed engine, and a straight body of a Datsun 1200) can be found for under $1K

Edited August 18, 2013 by ThreeDeadZs

[peej410]

I swapped e36M3 suspension front and rear into my 240z.

M3 rear suspension hub to hub no diff

$600

M3 front suspension hub to hub $250

M3 used bilstein sport front struts

$100

Penske rear dampers with springs $800

M3 differential $400

Driveshaft $300

Adapter flange $100

Probably $400 in monoballs and hardware

Its doable and I could walk you through the fab work. It is not for the faint of heart but it works.

[socorob]

http://youtu.be/AQjXsvEhLyQ

 

It would probably be easier to use something with a frame like the 4wd hillclimb 260z.

[ThreeDeadZs]

Peej410:

I'm blown away!  That sounds like a beautiful solution.  I suppose those are the used prices (besides the Penske rear dampers and driveshaft).  How much fabrication is involved, and have you done a build thread on it yet?

 

I am a bit nervous about switching to BMW because of the cost of new replacement parts.  A quick search of the net shows that the systems seem fairly self-contained, so not too many connection points to mount; and that was my reason for originally considering Supra (now Lexus IS300) suspension complete swap.

 

I'd love more details, as I'm sure would others considering a full suspension swap.  How long have you had this on the road?  Any difficulties?

[ThreeDeadZs]

I was notified once Peej410 wrote his response, and spent the entire time since doing research.  I split my response into two (the direct response is above).

 

So I'm did a little homework here...(assuming I find accurate sources)

On Datsuns.com, 240Z-280Z:

Track (F/R): 53.3 / 53.0

BMW E36 M3 (from a forum quoting a sales brochure)

Track (F/R): 56.0 / 56.6

Lexus IS300 AutomobileMag

Track (F/R): 58.9 / 58.5

 

Wheelbase:

240Z-280Z: 90.7 (102.6 for 2+2 model)

BMW E36 M3 (Wiki): 106.3

IS300 - 105.1

 

I'm also have a copy of SCCA's SOLO II autocross 2012 finals open.  (Available, I can probably find a link to download it)

I'm a little perplexed.  As verified by the above document, I knew that the BMW M3 is excellent at autocross but it's narrow track vs long wheelbase is counter-intuitive.  Of course not one Lexus placed.  A large number of 240Z's and a 510 (I have to assume their suspensions are basically upgraded from stock, following SCCA rules) placed in last year's finals.

 

The BMW subframe swap sounds great... but not after I compare to restoring and upgrading the stock 240Z suspension, when autocross (not competition but style of driving) is my primary goal.  Especially when compared dollar for dollar?

 

Miata's are significant winners in SCCA SOLO II, and I'd use any body that happens to be a perfect match.  The Datsun 1200 is quite close, with substantially less weight.  It seems the ideal combination when autocross is considered (combined with the fact that I'm under California's SMOG laws), and I want an enclosed hatchback (I admit, that is merely for my giant dog).  Even if SCCA would bump me to a class I can't possibly win, it is the feel of the car that I'm interested in achieving.

 

"Hill climb 260Z Frame"  Sure, I love that 4WD V8 car.  That is an excellent car for it's purpose, but my purpose is a daily driver / autocross car with a goal of 25% weight per corner, RWD, using late model technology.  Do you have any source of information for the frame design and what suspension is used?  I wouldn't want a Chevy S10 frame, as some source says it has, but if it has a custom ladder frame or backbone with information available, please share!

[Hypertek]

 I think body swap should come from a car that typically has no performance potential in the first place , than it would be really cool. S30z is already a capable chassis to being fast, look at kunis30z http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYpL1BrCGQI

http://minkara.carview.co.jp/en/userid/357364/car/261119/profile.aspx

[LLave]

I would bet you that if you spent your budget on modifying a Z by conventional means you would have a car that performed just as well. I am not saying dont do it, its an awesome idea that has been brought up many times. There is a pretty constant stream of these unrealistic, low budget, ultra high performance dream projects with space shuttle tile underbodies and indy car motors, so dont be surprised at the skepticism. Especially if this is your first build and an inexperienced fabricator. 

[ThreeDeadZs]

Space Shuttle Tile underbodies!  I like it!  Perhaps motive will help context for looking for such solutions:

 

* California SMOG law does not allow any performance modifications, so using exempt bodies is the only way around it

* High performance modern cars cost a hell of a lot, and tend to weigh 3500lbs or more with bloat

* Modern cars that can be afforded lose value at an incredible rate, classics tend to maintain their value

* Some late model performance cars have better cG, skidpad, downforce, electronics, drag coefficients, than can readily be achieved on a classic

* Some late model cars have dual wishbone, reliable, light suspension systems

* Most late model cars that are RWD are also bloated luxury cars.

* Most late model cars don't really allow for home mechanics - owners aren't even expected to change their own spark plugs anymore.

 

Maybe what I set out to do (weld a different floor, etc) is not available.  I accept that possibility.  Or maybe it is, and still seemed worth discussing.  I did find a video that shows a well built 240Z with RB26DET that was superior to a high-dollar modified 370Z in autocross, tested by MotorTrend:

That certainly says that for autocross exclusively, stick to the 240Z as designed, with some updates.

 

Having a limited budget, being stuck with California's smog laws, so not able to heavily modifiy a newer car (and not being able to register it if some obscure flaw makes it not pass smog); I'm inclined to heavily modify a classic.  How to do it is still open to consideration.

[seattlejester]

You still haven't mentioned your capabilities, experience, or how much of the work you can and will do your self.

 

If the limit of your research is googling results, you have quite a ways to go, understanding how the suspension will be moving/mounted to a chassis is very important. Do you understand the benefits of a double wishbone suspension over a simple macpherson strut? Do you understand the reinforcements needed to run the newer suspension with higher spring rates? Why do you need the subframe from the mentioned cars? What do you hate so much about the standard layout that merits the change? If you can't answer these then it may be too early for you to be considering such a task.

 

Looking at wheel base is a little strange as well. Most cars don't come with a chassis anymore, so swapping front and rear subframes is a matter of width and mounting points, the length is easily controlled with custom driveshaft length. Keep in mind trying to narrow track is substantially more difficult, you will have to narrow cross members, frames, axles, etc and the axles will have to be custom made, or shortened and rebalanced, are you familiar with those processes? If you use the running gear and any integral structure from the donor car, then it actually becomes a Z body kit on the donor car chassis, that's the reason almost all the cheap kit cars are registered as beetles or fiero's, just a Lamborghini or ferrari kit on a stretched chassis. 

 

Not trying to burst your bubble, but would hate to see you dump all this money into something and end up with something that is misaligned and twitchy, or worse handles much worse than a prepped z chassis. you could have some very bespoke suspension for a few thousand and work on an engine swap if you really were gunning for something special. Have you driven a Z? Have you driven one with a nicely setup ground control system, or otherwise? You would be surprised how well they handle with a few tidbits here and there. I know a guy who is on year 3 of re-bodying a car himself, and that's just on making the body panels, he hasn't even gotten to the power plant. If that was at a shop, you can imagine he would be in the 6 figure territory and that is being conservative.

 

And please note this is coming from a place of experience, you can imagine how fast most of my exotic plans hit the toilet, when a quote for a sandblasting, epoxy primering, and patching came out to 3500, and that's just for the shell!

Edited August 19, 2013 by seattlejester

[ThreeDeadZs]

You still haven't mentioned your capabilities, experience, or how much of the work you can and will do your self...

Okay, you require evidence...

As a hobby, I designed and hand built one old school high-compression Frankenstein 20R/22R/21R engine on the garage floor in 1988, back when TRD was actually a resource for hobbyists.  That was for a 1975 Celica, which required octane boost.  I drifted that car, back when there was no such term.  Did several aftermarket mods to that car.

Since then, I did several engine R&I's for myself and others, paying machine shops to do long blocks or buying JDM longblocks.  Tranny swaps and all the usual repairs and aftermarket upgrades.  Even specified some custom Ferrea valves.  I even did an 1986 Honda Frankenstein in the 1990's that was unrecognizable to CA smog.  In fact, it passed (and I quote) "Like a brand new car."  I've also done some significant electrical repairs (on a theft-recovery).

I've chopped cars up with Oxy-Acetylene, and am a proficient solderer, but that does not make me a welder.  All I've done is use Naval Jelly (cleans my belly button right out!), sandblasting, and primering.  Am I a novice?  Intermediate?  Whatever.  I've just chosen to own about three cars at a time for many years (generally one sport, one grocery, one truck), buying them dead, fixing them up, and selling them (usually selling them in good working condition) when I move on to another project.

 

As to Z cars, did you notice my tongue-in-cheek moniker I chose for myself?  Three Dead Zs!  I FAILED to do a ground-up strictly to stock restoration of my 240Z after having it as a back-burner project for several years, restoring many systems but finding some parts hard to find, had a matching parts car, and picked up a nightmare of a modified 1974.5 260Z (I think it was #12 built as a matter of trivia).  I had a grocery getter and a cargo van at the same time, but I found it frustratingly humorous that I had three dead Z cars on my property.  I chose the moniker as a way to poke fun at myself.  So yes, I am quite familiar with the S30 design and also how good intentions can end in failure.  The housing bubble "punctured" and I lost ~$200K, brought my cars with me to several rentals, and finally had to give them up for Ch 7 Bankruptcy.  Now I'm back to being able to build one, but can't waste any money.  I will have about $8K to devote to the initial build, and after a couple years could put a few thousand more into it.

 

My library related to Z cars is second to none!  So when I brought up this hybrid project, I am planning one that I can finish completely without crashing and burning yet again.  Why choose the whole floor or subframe set of a newer car?  For years up to the start of this thread, it seemed easier to support a complete car and chop the body off (leaving everything intact), picking up a S30 shell that has spent maybe a decade in an arid field (Sacramento valley is ideal for finding them), support the body so it doesn't warp, and lay the body onto the complete donor, with significant welding necessary, additional doubler plates, tube framing, plumbing, exhaust, order custom driveshaft if engine/transmission don't match the floor, and so forth.  If consensus of this thread is correct, that's really not in my budget.

 

It does seem like the Miata subframe set under a Datsun 1200, with a SR20DET would be a combination to research further.  A little go-cart under 2000lbs, with autocross-worthy suspension, and an engine that can put out more power than I would want.  Power to weight ratio of 1:8, where many races limit to 1:15?  That would be quite the monster.

 

For the S30, as I referenced in that video, it does seem that building the suspension and body to basically stock is entirely adequate.  Swap kits exist for some really desirable engines (SR20DET, entire RB series, though I might choose something light with just enough power to suit me).  I really want to avoid dealing with dual carbs or early fuel injection again, as I am in a unique location that one could drive from sea level to ~8000ft (haven't clocked it) in maybe an hour!  Altitude compensation was a real issue with my cars.  As someone mentioned (though the link was in Japanese, I knew the design) I might do better starting with a late L28ET, overbore (with sleeves?), and modern turbo with intercooler, ECU, and bolt-on equipment.

 

Some of your questions are not pertinent, and a bit condescending; but I've tried to give an honest and humble answer to most of them.  What's wrong with the stock layout?  The S30 has bumpsteer and lift instead of downforce, but it and the Bluebird are pretty good but poor metal quality and may require significant restoration and reinforcement, the 1200 is a piece of crap but a very interesting shape and size to me.  All of them might have hidden structural flaws after over 40 years - so the idea of using a modern system and effectively using just the shell and VIN# of the pre-smog car is very appealing.

 

"Looking at wheel base is a little strange as well. Most cars don't come with a chassis anymore,"

You are completely wrong here.  The wheelbase relative to the design geometry has a great deal to do with hop, brake hop, over/under-steer, roll center, ratio of lateral vs longitudinal weight transfer... and I was going to quote Herb Adams' Chassis Engineering.  Too much bother.  The manufacturer took wheelbase into account in their subframe designs.  I know that the engineers that the manufacturers hired are better at their job than I am.  Therefore I'd be inclined to use their design!  Oh, and "no chassis anymore."  Uh... what?  Whether unibody, tube frame, or ladder frame like a truck - there's a chassis involved.  Oh, and as to narrowing the track - absolutely not:  use bodywork to match the donor suspension geometry, not the other way around.

 

"If you use the running gear and any integral structure from the donor car, then it actually becomes a Z body kit on the donor car chassis, that's the reason almost all the cheap kit cars are registered as beetles or fiero's"

YES IT DOES!  I'd use just enough of the Datsun to barely satisfy the law, so they think it is a Datsun.  Unlike a kit car, I'd title the Z car before modifying.  That's the point.  However, it seems this project (subframes or whole floor/firewall/dash/electronics) seems more appropriate to the Datsun 1200 (or 510 'goon) than a Z since the stock Z suspension can be adequately updated - I just wanted to have metal work done instead of the modifications required for an engine swap.  Looks like a ordinary engine swap is the way to go for a Z or 510.

 

"something that is misaligned and twitchy, or worse handles much worse than a prepped z chassis." 

That's why I'd preserve the donor's suspension geometry.

 

"...driven a Z..."

Yeah, I drove two of mine.

 

Your opinions and advice are appreciated.  I've laid out my responses to many points not just for your sake or mine, but because this is a public forum.

 

It may be (and I have a heck of a lot of research to even suppose this) that I can manage to use Miata components (and exact geometry) to turn a Datsun 1200 into a monster autocross-type car.  (The suspension swap would put me in an open class, where I'd be up against supercars, so I wouldn't win any trophies - I never set out to "win" but to have a car that is a blast to drive)

Edited August 20, 2013 by ThreeDeadZs

[seattlejester]

I had a really thorough and clearly organized answer typed out, but I just hit the back button and lost all of it. So I'll address the main points, my apologies if this sounds curt as I am pretty upset with myself at the moment.

 

First I appreciate you taking this in the best light, written speech always seems to convey the worst in me at times and in general I think written speech in general can be taken the wrong way most of the time. I always play the devil's advocate, someone has to do it, and I don't mind the hate that comes with it if it helps someone out in the long run.

 

You can understand my concern with your experience from your preference to have the work outsourced, that can destroy a budget very quickly with not much work done. If you have time, space, the skill, and access to steel, what you suggest actually wouldn't be out of the question given your budget, but if you outsourced the task you would have to pick diminishing build quality in order to complete such a build.

 

After looking at the mentioned threads, I realize you weren't talking about transferring over subframes and suspension pickup points from a donor vehicle as has been done a few times (a few of them cataloged on here), you were referring to welding the Z body onto the unibody of another car. You are correct that that would exclude many of the structural concerns of mating modern suspension to an older chassis, my bad on that. That is also where my driveshaft remark came from, using separate subframes and using the Z unibody would mean wheel base would no longer be a concern, but if you plan on using the donor unibody then fitting a body on top would indeed become a chore if the unibodies was not at least somewhere in the ball park. Unfortunately given the drastic nature of the change (not running any stock major components), this will undoubtedly legally be considered a custom vehicle, which has to pass smog via a BAR referee according to California DMV, if you are planning a build with the intention of fooling the government body that may be a bad place to start. From what I have read of the California emissions regulations when I was trying to help a friend with some importing, they take that stuff pretty seriously down there. 

 

If bumpsteer and and lift is the downpoints to a Z car then those are easily addressed. Stiffer springs and better dampening struts will drastically reduce the suspension travel and will in turn easily minimize bumpsteer, and a reinforced airdam will drastically reduce the lift, which really only starts to play a role at speeds above 120 with the stock nose and weight configuration (so I am told, truth be told I haven't had my Z at those speeds, but with my airdam I've never felt the wheel go light). And if you drop the Z body onto another chassis, the lift is still there (aerodynamics don't change).

 

That above is the reason I asked the questions, if your reasons are easily addressed it is very easy to be swayed as time passes. America spends millions to develop a pen that can write in space, the Russians use a pencil. If you can say, the turning radius is drastically limited by the tension rod for tight corners using shorter knuckles and power steering as I will be using this car for autocross, or limited readily available after market choices for adjustable pieces as you plan on drifting a lot and need to replace suspension components on a regular basis, or as in someone else's case they were much more familiar with another manufacturer's suspension layout, or had a fully built setup from another car, those responses would be very convincing. Heck I've built entire projects just because I had a neat piece laying around that I wanted a home for. Now "I just want to" or "I think it is unique" can be just a good reason as any, but that reason has to stand up to yourself over time (scope creep). I once saw a 2005 toyota celica chassis (FWD) with a 500hp subaru AWD drivetrain being swapped in, the reason, she wanted something that would "pop," never did see it finished.

 

To address the idea of dropping the datsun body onto a miata, the miata's run a structural aluminum backbone which connects the whole driveline to the front and rear cross members, thus dropping a body on that will require a way to attach that back bone to the body, once again not difficult if you have the skill and the time, in fact there is a company that builds an Ariel Atom like shell to throw on top of it.

 

Keep in mind, the reason I am trying to sway you away is because you asked for it, you asked if you could do such a thing. If you had said that this is what you were going to do and the best way to go about it, that would merit a different response. My main concern is you have a very decent sized budget, you want a smog free Datsun with upgraded suspension and an engine swap, why don't you look for just that? I see turbo swapped datsuns with sorted suspension go in the 5k-10k range quite often.

 

Regardless of my nays, good luck on your endeavor it sounds interesting, I would also suggest a look at project car magazine, they had an issue on a 240sx chassis into a pickup truck body swap in one of the issues.

[ThreeDeadZs]

Well, I'm not sure why I'm still up... but I'll give a brief response.

 

This was the first time I've considered outsourcing to Mexico.  I figured since brute-force metalwork might be had cheaply there, I was curious about exploring it.  I've found no backing on that plan.  If it were the case, the mating of two large assemblies (body and floor) would be rather straightforward there, and not rocket science.  A quality seam-welder can be found most anywhere.

 

From your examples as to reason for a particular plan, I might say... the 350Z does better on the skidpad on the 240Z, and the combination described here could shave 1/3 of the weight of the 350Z - and then allow modifications to the engine that can only be done to a smog exempt body.  Another answer is that while I'm not fond of Mazda in particular, I can't argue with their significant placement in national finals of SCCA SOLO II, and they are slightly larger than the Datsun 1200, so the floor (or a portion of the rear floor only) can most effectively replace the cheap live axle.  The front subframe could be mounted 3cm forward of the stock 1200 subframe (on custom rails if needed), or the entire front and rear Miata subframes can be moved "forward" relative to the 1200 body, leaving the only interference possible with a particular Datsun engine remaining to be the steering linkage; and improving the weight bias.  Also the Miata subframes (I have pictures, they can be found easily enough) are extremely self-contained.  If they are mounted to an aluminum backbone and the Miata body is steel - that could be absolutely perfect.  I just use/fabricate a steel floor that mates (perhaps bolts) to that backbone, and the rest can remain Datsun.

 

Yes, my purpose is to skirt the law.  But I'll be sure not to break the law, or at least stay within bounds that keep my car from being impounded.  (SR20DET RWD is not a US engine, so every one that is in Calfornia is breaking the law).  I'm pretty certain that suspension swaps and frame mods are not legislated.  Perhaps oddly, I fully intend to use a high flow cat. I'm not looking to make a polluter, but a car that doesn't abide by their over-restrictive laws.

 

A very quick Google search shows that your space pen idea is an urban legend.  Pencil leads pose a hazard in zero gravity, and the Fisher company produced a solution with their own money ($1M-$2M depending on source) for Nitrogen charged sealed cartridge pens and sold them to NASA for $1.98 each, patenting them in 1965 and started selling them to NASA in 1967 (varies depending on your source).  The Soviets started using such pens in 1969.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=fact-or-fiction-nasa-spen

http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Pen

http://mentalfloss.com/article/13103/russians-didnt-just-use-pencils-space

http://io9.com/5838635/the-million-dollar-space-pen-hoax

Why the references to such a trivial point?  Fact check everything you write, or clarify with "I think, in my opinion, as far as I know, etc"

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/s/spacepen.htm#.UhM7n1Nr9dI

 

All that said, I might simply purchase a 240Z or 510 already built and engine swapped, even if it needs additional work to complete or refresh.

Goodnight.

[seattlejester]

The statement was anecdotal, but if you want to pick holes in it...

First, I never said NASA, I said America, Fisher is an american company, I know the fallacy behind it and I took care to avoid it, I bloody well have the pen in front of me.

And prior to the wide spread adoption, Russians did indeed use pencils, or more accurately grease pencils/pens, as is mentioned in your third source, in fact they did so since their first manned space mission until their purchase of the Fisher space pens in 1967. 

 

If we are picking holes in each others statement, 

 

...the combination described here could shave 1/3 of the weight of the 350Z...

 

where are you getting the theoretical weight savings from? If you use the floor and underpinnings you still keep most of the weight. The lightest of the early Z cars still weighed 2100, with the 350z weighing at 3200 (roughly), if you are keeping the whole underside of the car, you can't just subtract the weight difference, it hangs on. Sure you drop weight by having a smaller body, but you won't drop 1/2 a ton.

 

I really don't want to do this anymore, it seems you are intent on proving me wrong. I'm glad that you are considering looking for a sorted car, but I genuinely hope you do a body drop/chassis combination and prove me wrong, it wouldn't be the first time, and if proving me wrong is the motivation you need to complete your project, more power to you.

 

Good luck.

[socorob]

2 guys did something similar on the Sunbeam forum. 1 took an Alpine and widened it by 8-10 inches, I can't remember but it came out beautifully. The other took an Alpine body and was going to put it on a Miata platform. He actually got them set in place and tacked together, but that was as far as I think it went. Someone said in the very beginning when he was going to start it that all he was going to do was ruin an Alpine and a Miata, and that's exactly what happened.

Edited August 20, 2013 by socorob

[ThreeDeadZs]

socorob,

 

Thanks for the info.  I did come up with a plan that would avoid the nightmare:  Take two cars worth nothing, but adequate for prototyping, and combine them.   Get it to work (or not, and stop there) and potentially get another pair of donors to built it right.  I happen to live near a relatively large supply of rust-free Datsuns (Sacramento Valley), and even better selection if I expand my search to all of southern California and Arizona, and tow something home.

 

What do I mean? 

* Someone is selling a 240Z shell near me on Craigslist right now for $80 with minimal rust.  I suppose it was a restoration that failed.  So I'm sure I can find a Datsun 1200 shell or complete car that is no longer road-worthy but has a clean title and non-op registration (or "out of system" as it is called in California) for next to nothing if I'm patient.

* I did a Craigslist search and found a huge selection of high mileage first generation Miatas under $1000 complete with just a blown engine.  So I should be able to find one adequate for a floor and subframes (even if I have to replace the suspension & brakes when finished) for nothing or next to nothing - even if I have to wait to find one with... a salvage title, giant DMV back-fees, high mileage, blown engine, transmission problems, golf-club damage to the body, ripped top, smashed glass... in some way - complete junk.  Yet as long as it is a roller that has a good floor and complete suspension, it would serve my purposes.

* Then comes initial fabrication or prototyping.  I need to find a welder willing to help as a hobby, or in trade, to just cut and tack-weld a roller.  Maybe I even get the car mostly done and enroll in a welding class for fun, and use the stripped down car as my class project.  (I happen to have extra time)  Perhaps that roller works out beautifully so I continue to complete that project [or learning from mistakes, start over replacing whichever donor is junked] 

* strip it down, eliminate rust, seam weld where necessary, add doubler plates, primer, "home paint" everything the intended color during assembly, basic body work, etc.  Mount whichever cheap engine is most convenient for prototyping (Datsun or Mazda).

* Get it road-worthy and drive it.  Works out all the bugs in body and suspension.  Get it to look good enough that the CHP (highway patrol) isn't going to look at it sideways.  Get it to the level of a road-safe old Miata, start driving it hard, and watch for any problems that pop up.

[hopefully, the cost up to this point is quite minimal]

 

* Only after it passes every test and is a sound vehicle, do the following in stages:

   ** Install a rollbar or rollcage, additional seam welding

   ** install an SR20DET with upgrades

   ** swap/rebuild/upgrade the Miata suspension and brakes

   ** build a worthy interior (racing seat, sound deadening, carpet or bedliner material, nice dash & gauges, door panels, headliner, cargo pad)

   ** pay a shop to paint it properly the same color used during initial assembly.

   **get it dyno tuned and get a performance shop involved to help sort out the car

 

This seems like a plan to go about the project that I have outlined on this topic, and I hope this topic continues.  [it appears this is a home project, not one to be outsourced out-of-country.  I had to ask, right?]  Any ideas or corrections on the above list, please elaborate.

 

At this point, I may or may not build such a car, as I'm becoming increasingly convinced that I can get what I want within my price range by buying a sorted 240Z or 510 already swapped to a sufficient engine, and update the stock suspension to an adequate level (see video above), especially if it is time for the seller to pull the engine and rebuild it (so the price goes down, and I can put my money into a proper engine build, and refresh or improve any shortcomings), or buy a project that is only nearly complete but all the expensive swap parts are already purchased.