Material for turbo plenum/ITB airbox

[Metro]

So recently I got a hair up my ass to go with ITBs, mostly because I love the sound and also because I would like a new project. If my Frankenstein setup works, I'll post more about it later.

 

I have just about everything sorted out, the problem I'm running into is I'll need an airbox/plenum that will handle boost. I've spent days searching various car forums trying to find something that will work. Obviously carbon fiber works, but that's outside of my skill set and paygrade. A fabricated aluminum plenum would be nice, but welding aluminum with my Lincoln SP-135 sounds questionable at best.

 

So my next thought would be making something out of fiberglass. I was thinking a two part box that would bolt together. But from what I've been reading, fiberglass doesn't play nice with gasoline and can only handle up to around 3-400°. There's also the fact that I couldn't find anyone who's successfully done this makes me think it's not worth pursuing. Most of what I read was in regard to fabricating an intake manifold. An intake manifold would be directly exposed to fuel and seem to be at greater risk from a backfire shredding it. In my mind, an ITB plenum wouldn't be as harsh of an environment.

 

Fiberglass is probably a terrible idea, but I was just wondering what the gurus here think of it.

[dexter72]

I know i viewed pics on this site of a guy who made a plenum out of a Z valve cover. Maybe finding those pics may help in your quest.

 

If you can get all your pieces together of how you want the plenum to look. You can always have a good aluminum welder, weld it all up for you. Maybe find a local out of work welder, send him more business if he does a good job for you.

 

Just some thoughts

[madkaw]

I thought of doing the turbo route with my CAI valve cover, but thought better of trying to pressurizing mikuni's. You could use the valve cover with some minor welding by someone else. The tough part will be getting it to seal without having to come with more bolt down points. Not sure if my 6 bolts would seal to a backing plate during pressure.

[Tony D]

So buying any of the at least four different plenums available in the automotive used parts world is not suitable to your needs why?

Edited October 4, 2013 by Tony D

[Metro]

I'll most likely go with aluminum I just wanted to rule out my crazy fiberglass idea.

 

I've been thinking of adapting something from a 2jz or rb26, mostly because they're cheap and I think the port spacing is pretty close. I found one site in the UK that will sell a universal plenum that looks quite a bit like what's being offered on the L6 group buy manifold. I would just need to get a backing plate welded on. That would probably be the nicest way to go.

 

The more I think about it, I probably should have just started with RB26 throttle bodies and its plenum.

 

 

So buying any of the at least four different plenums available in the automotive used parts world is not suitable to your needs why?

 

Do you have any specific examples? I've looked at quite a few six cylinders engines for inspiration.

[Tony D]

HKS Type 1

HKS Type 2

Sangyo Kiki (SK)

Cartech

 

There's 4, any reason not to just buy one?

[Metro]

HKS Type 1

HKS Type 2

Sangyo Kiki (SK)

Cartech

 

There's 4, any reason not to just buy one?

 

Buying a HKS type 2 would be easy, but I'm trying to find something that wasn't forged with unobtanium

[Xnke]

They aren't....they are still available new, if you have the cash.

 

You aren't going to save money building one over buying one. It just doesn't work out that way 99.5% of the time.

 

Have you the ability to tune ITB's and boost? It's not easy, and the stock ECU will NOT do it.

 

MS-1 WILL NOT do it

 

MS-1extra will not do it very well...there are a few tricks and hacks but it's pretty sketchy business.

 

MS-2 won't do it well.

 

MS-2extra can do it, but it is full-manual tuning. Autotune does not work very well nor intuitively when running ITB's and boost. VE analyzer in Megalogviewer or TS doesn't really understand the way that MS2E handles boosted ITB's, and is mostly more hurtful than helpful at this point.

 

MS-3 supposedly can do it, but so far I have no experience with it.

 

I know of a few standalones that aren't terribly good at it, but I'm sure something out there will do it. I know a lot of them CAN do it, but I have very little experiance outside of MS.

 

Here's a tip from someone who did it and walked away for a mechanical reason instead of a tuning reason, though...USE A MAF SENSOR!. Don't bother with speed-density/alpha-N combo tuning...it's a complex pain in the ass when all you need is a suitably sized MAF sensor from a ford or nissan, and you can be off tuning. It's a dark, uncharted path through a cave full of pitfalls and razor sharp rocks, but others have gone before you and left footsteps. MAF tuning is not terribly difficult if you are patient and have a fully registered copy of MLV and TS. TS alone will not do it! You need to be able to plot data effectively to do the MAF option, but having felt the results...It's definitely worth the extra effort learning to tune it with MS.

 

Nistune would seem to be a good way to go to using a MAF sensor...all sorts of help out there since the stock ECU's use it.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Xnke

[Metro]

They aren't....they are still available new, if you have the cash.

I kind of figured you could find a dealer and then they could order it from Japan. I get the feeling it would cost a ridiculous amount, like double what I plan on spending total, just for one piece.

 

Have you the ability to tune ITB's and boost? It's not easy, and the stock ECU will NOT do it.

I was planning on finally going to MS2 (extra, of course), I have great faith in Megasquirt. I've been running MSNS-extra since 2006, long before autotune/ve analyzer popped up.

 

Here's a tip from someone who did it and walked away for a mechanical reason instead of a tuning reason, though...USE A MAF SENSOR!. Don't bother with speed-density/alpha-N combo tuning...it's a complex pain in the ass when all you need is a suitably sized MAF sensor from a ford or nissan, and you can be off tuning. It's a dark, uncharted path through a cave full of pitfalls and razor sharp rocks, but others have gone before you and left footsteps. MAF tuning is not terribly difficult if you are patient and have a fully registered copy of MLV and TS. TS alone will not do it! You need to be able to plot data effectively to do the MAF option, but having felt the results...It's definitely worth the extra effort learning to tune it with MS.

 

I've been reading your threads and a MAF was part of the plan, or at least, I recognize I'll have to ditch speed density at some point for it. I know this won't be easy, but that's half the fun. I get bored if I'm not doing anything and this seemed like a good project to tackle while it's raining for the next 8 months.

[Sam280Z]

How much of an interest is there in a type 2 knock off and what would be the going price? I have the CAD plans 90% done to build one for myself (CNC and welded). My car was totaled and I was going to do this when I move the driveline over to my other project - but I could accelerate this aspect of the project. I've been keeping my eyes out for a type 2, but they don't come up anymore. I should have bought one when they were $300. Currently running cartech plenum. BTW, I would use MS3 with MS3X. Looking like the new MAF algorithm will be the holy grail...

Sam

[Xnke]

Fabricating anything is going to be very costly if you aren't doing the fabrication yourself, especially once you realize that it's not just a simple hollow box.

 

I spent 8 months working out how I wanted my new intake manifold to be, and then I had to change it. But, if I was running a turbo, it probably would have worked out just fine. Tuning was a major pain in the butt, though, but with the MAF it was silky smooth up till the MAF signal went screwy.

 

Turns out it was tuner error! I goofed up and had my number of injectors and number of cylinders setup at 4! EDIS was taking care of the spark, so even though the injection timing and SAW signal timing was wayyy off, the EDIS kept the spark distributed correctly...till 3000RPM when it flipped it's wig and I thought I was having noise issues.

 

BTW...the MS3 MAF algorithm is identical to the old MS2 and MS2Extra...the only difference is now frequency-based MAF sensors (GM, some Mitsubishi, some Toyota) are more easily used. The actual fuel computations are the same, and the setup is the same.

 

I wouldn't bother with all the extra expense and complexity of MS3 or MS3X on anything I didn't absolutely need full sequential everything on. Most of the "new" MS3 stuff is just MS2Extra code that hasn't been released into the MS2Extra stable codebase; almost all of the non "sequential injection" code has been backported to MS2E.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Xnke

[Sam280Z]

I'll be doing the fab work myself. I have to build at least 3 right now (2 for my motors). It is definitely not a hollow box.

I disagree that the MS3 and 3X is more complex. More expensive, yes. Complex, no. A few extra wires for the injectors and spark and almost everything you will want to add on later is built in.

The problem with ITB turbos is that you don't know what you need until you find out that what you have doesn't work. Been there done that. I.e. last major project was welding stock intake flange on to be able to run small injectors at the ports. Check out my build thread: 

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/102280-ms3-w-ms3x-install-l6-turbo-sequential-injection-boost-control/

 

The MAF algorithm is going through a major redesign right now. It looks very promising. http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=125&t=50605 James  indicates that he wishes to back port to MS2extra as well.

 

Sam

[Tony D]

I built my HKS Type1 knockoff, but only because I had taxpayer supplied aluminium, welding equipment, and machine shop.

 

If it didn't knock on my hood, I'd still be driving it today!

[Xnke]

Knock on the hood?

 

Nah, it doesn't knock on the hood...

 

 

[Tony D]

Mine was better than that! If I'd sloped the front edge at ALL (or even chamfered a 1" 45 degree off the corner) it would have cleared no problem... I still have it, may still do it anyway!

[Metro]

 

Well, Santa didn't bring me a plenum this year and I'm seriously beginning to question his commitment.

[BluDestiny]

Any more pics of that? It looks amazing.

[Metro]

 

 

Thanks, they're 46mm Suzuki GSXR ITBs with DCOE adapters. I fired it up last Sunday, but it's still a work in progress.  I'm still probably a month or two away from driving it, there's about a dozen small problems to work through.

[Xnke]

Looks awesome. Tune it as-is....ITB's sound fabulous and they are just wicked fun.

[johnc]

Why not weld up a plenum out of .035" stainless sheet?  You can weld that with your welder.