seanmac777 Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Hey all, I've been on this forum for a couple of years and don't post a whole lot, just mainly read and research and read some more. I currently own two Z's. A 240 and a 260. Both cars are being built for performance, mostly Autocross/road course. My 240 is a rust free car I got from Arizona, and I already have most of my parts lined up to start building this car. (hopefully it will be done by 2016.) What I am looking for advice from you guys is the 260z. I bought this car from an old man here in Iowa who has had his car in storage for several years. The body on this car is damn near flawless for its age, only problem is.. The barn it was stored in had a squirrel infestation problem. That being said, although the exterior of the car is in great, rust free shape, the squirrels had packed acorns and nuts inside of this car and over the years it began to take it's toll. The floor of this Z is completely gone. Floors, frame rails under the floors, the whole passenger side firewall, and most of the passenger side frame rail in the engine compartment is GONE.!. The man's son had started trying to restore the car and gutted it. No interior/ no engine...it's just a bare shell with the suspension under it. Now I know a lot of guys on this forum are purists and don't like people just throwing V8's in the Z's...but I have personal reasons for why I want to LS swap this car. Due to these personal reasons, this car needs to be an animal on the track. (mainly Autocross.) A lot of people have seen the floors of this car and are telling me to just find another rust free Z to start this project, but the more I think about it, I think I have the perfect starting point for what I am thinking about doing. The body on this car is wayyyy too good to just throw away... so what about building a custom tube frame, a full rolling caged setup, and then just dropping the Z body down over the tube chassis? I know this includes a ton of work and a ton of research to get the geometry right. But I know my way around a car, I have been racing for several years now so I know a lot of the basics in setting up a car, and I weld for a living so building a frame that will hold up and be safe should not be a problem. Are there any unexpected problems that I am going to come across by attempting to do what I have just explained? I have seen a couple of tube frame builds but not enough to really give me a good idea of what I am getting into. The geometry and engineering part is what I am most worried about. I have a friend who is a Civil Engineer, who said he can draw up some dimensions for me in CAD....problem with that is that he isn't a mechanical engineer...and doesn't have the suspension knowledge to help as much as I would like.... I'm sure there are going to be a lot of flamers on here....and there is no need for that. Any advice that can be given will be greatly appreciated, and I don't mind constructive criticism. Thanks, Sean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rturbo 930 Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 (edited) Now I know a lot of guys on this forum are purists and don't like people just throwing V8's in the Z's. Lol what? This site started out as a forum specifically for V8 swapped Zs. But, back to your question, honestly, I think pics (several good, detailed pics, not 3 blurry ones) here would help a lot. And although I wouldn't say there's a lot purists on here, there still needs to be a bit of discretion when choosing a car to swap. Depending what condition your 240z is in, and what year it is, and how much of it is original, I might advise you to just leave it alone. The 260z though could be a great contender for an auto-x car, but again, need to see what you're working with to say. What builds have you looked at on here regarding a tube frame? 74 5.0L Z did a great front tube chassis on his 260z, and that might be a good place to start looking for inspiration. Edited April 8, 2015 by rturbo 930 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanmac777 Posted April 8, 2015 Author Share Posted April 8, 2015 Engine bay pic Another Engine bay pic Close up showing the frame rail is rusting away from where it would have met the firewall interior, both floors are gone Passenger side floor/firewall Driver side Passenger side. (door does shut tightly and alignment all seems good on body) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Check this out: http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/105054-replica-240z/ You can also get Bad dog frame rails, new floor pans, etc and weld it back together. I do like the idea of the full frame and then dropping the body on it. I actually approached the guy in the above referenced link about doing that. I figured that would allow for a lot more flexibility in suspension and drivetrains if you could modify a frame to mount the stuff rather than having to use stock S30 mounting points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanmac777 Posted April 8, 2015 Author Share Posted April 8, 2015 Rturbo, I have actually looked at that Z before alongwith a couple others. I had read a lot on GT240's widebody Z where he made a custom tube frame also. Also I remember reading into detail the tube chassis build with the VQ motor and s13 rear subframe. (Ardvaark i think was what they had named it.)Phantom, that is exactly what I am picturing. I looked at the bad dog frame rails, and had actually ordered replacement floor pans for it...but decided that wasn't my best bet to go so I sold off the floor pans to a fellow Z owner. The tube frame would be virtually limitless as far as what suspension/steering components I wanted to install, just as long as it fits inside of the 260 body. That replica body would be sweet for sure as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlejester Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 That would not be a good body. I think you may be thinking the panels are good, but that uni-body is pretty far gone. I don't think you will find many purist here, and especially with one so far gone, I doubt there is much outcry. A tube chassis with some of the panels on would be pretty neat. Although at that point it is going to be a pain to pass any type of certification to drive it on the road. If it is a track toy then might as well go with a full tube frame chassis with custom pickup points for whatever type of driveline/suspension you want to throw in it and then buy some fiberglass parts and graft on the rear fender and such. Much like project aardvark or the twin turbo z build on this forum (can not remember the builders name mark?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rturbo 930 Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 (edited) That would not be a good body. I think you may be thinking the panels are good, but that uni-body is pretty far gone. It's nothing that hasn't been fixed many times before by members on here, and he welds for a living. For what he wants, I think the body is fine. A tube chassis with some of the panels on would be pretty neat. Although at that point it is going to be a pain to pass any type of certification to drive it on the road. Do they check that sort of thing out there? I don't think they really bother out here, and NJ got rid of its safety inspection a few years ago. I don't really see that being an issue. I'm guessing Iowa isn't too strict on that sort of thing either. Edited April 9, 2015 by rturbo 930 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Donovan_ Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I am no expert, but I would not touch that car. Sorry to say but I wouldn't trust V8 power in that. As much fun as these are I would think about personal safety. Think about cost to bring her back to life vs finding a donor car that would not need that much work as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlejester Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 We have safety inspections here for a couple of circumstances. Not annual, but cars that are out of the system and needed to be added back in, cars that are built from scratch/kits, and cars deemed unroadworthy by a state trooper. They can be as simple as a simple inspection (glass, lights, basic equipment), or it can be complex like putting it on a lift and inspecting welds and such depending on the inspector. I think it is just quite a bit of effort to restore the car then modify it to accept the drive train. Yes we have seen much much worse, but if the fab skills are there to repair it and there is confidence in the chassis construction a tube frame would probably be faster and easier to work on (all clean new steel). As phantom said, with a tube frame chassis the world is your oyster you can run any front suspension you want and you have a nice selection fro the rear. You don't have any height restriction or any angles to worry about. That might be me projecting a pipe dream though. I would love to play around with a tube frame chassis with a subaru flat engine powering the rear wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Donovan_ Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 How about this? How much money do you plan on throwing at this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanmac777 Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 (edited) I'm liking the input guys, keep it coming. As far as inspections go, I'm not worried about that at all. Once the car is licensed/registered, I've never heard of anybody having any other issues with the D.O.T. for a drivable car that doesn't have pieces hanging off of it. (here in Iowa.) Plus, it's not like I'm going to daily drive it. This one will rarely be on the road if ever.. I consider the body to be good meaning the sidepanels/hood/roof, etc... I realize the unibody of the car is pretty much unsafe without the floor in it.. but that is where the tube frame idea comes in. I don't see where this would be any difference than using a fiberglass body.. All of the rigidity, and all of the forces that the V8 power will put on the car would be tied directly to the frame, not the panels of the body.The way I picture this coming together would be a full running/drivable chassis and then the body would just drop over the top of it to make it look like a Datsun again. This may be a terrible analogy but kind of like an RC car, or maybe a monster truck... only difference is I would be using the steel body that I already have instead of using a fiberglass body.Now, I've been looking a frame designs and custom builds that are non-Datsun related all day trying to get ideas. And I'm thinking I can pretty much build it however I want, using whatever parts I want, just as long as the wheelbase/ height of the cage will fit inside of the steel body...does this seem like a fair analysis so far? What would you guys run for suspension if you could choose and why? Macpherson Strut setup? Double wishbone? Pushrod setup? Edited April 10, 2015 by seanmac777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlejester Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 There are 4 or 5 datsuns that come to mind similar to what you are building. Definitely take a look at aardvark, I think you will find some insight into the whole deal. That is kind of what I figured you were going for, except probably with working doors and such. Once you go full tube frame chassis the world is your oyster. The only dimension is indeed wheel base as well as suspension height/pickup points for your donor. On a sky is your limit setup a pushrod setup with inboard shocks would be pretty neat, keep all the weight inline with the center and you could make a variety of adjustments. For ease of construction maybe the double wishbone from an SC300/400 or a C5/C6 vette. In fact stealing the components off of a vette would make this much easier if you could find a trashed one for cheap. The whole story then comes down to is it worth building this car when you can easily buy an LS vette for probably less time and money lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanmac777 Posted April 11, 2015 Author Share Posted April 11, 2015 I've been thinking a lot about using a vette as a donor car, but I want to build this as a Datsun, I don't want to just be another guy with a vette. I love the S30 chassis, and there really aren't any other ones around here. Is a Vette going to have the best options for me on a custom build like this? Or should I be mix-matching parts to get the best possible combination? (I'm really just thinking out loud right now.. I have a TON of research still left to do before I am for sure on what route I am going to take..) I looked at the pushrod idea, and thought it would be pretty cool to toy around with, I just don't know nearly enough about it to truly be able to optimize performance out of it. I'm not wanting to put something on there just because it looks cool, I want it to make my car handle the best that it possibly can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rturbo 930 Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 (edited) I've been thinking a lot about using a vette as a donor car, but I want to build this as a Datsun, I don't want to just be another guy with a vette. I love the S30 chassis, and there really aren't any other ones around here. Well, I don't think this is really the answer you're looking for, but given what you said there, I would actually keep the stock Z suspension. You can adjust the mounting points and such for better geometry, but IMO the suspension is a big part of what makes the Z what it is, and when you swap it for something else, that's when it is no longer a Z. If you don't like that idea, look into E36 M3 F+R suspension. It's been done on here, on a stock chassis (no tube frame) no less, and IIRC the E36 M3 was once named C&D's best handling car (for whatever that's worth). I don't believe the swap added much weight either. Edited April 11, 2015 by rturbo 930 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlejester Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 (edited) Once again pushrod for me is sky is no limit with a large budget to throw away on R&D to find out what really works. Regarding what suspension, it really is up to you. If you do indeed do a full tube frame you can fit a variety of suspension. Post drive shaft you can have a custom drive shaft made to adapt to any rear subframe of any FR RWD car pretty much. Given the V8 in the front, it would probably be advisable to start with a v8 based car at least in the axles/diff. The suspension really is up to you. There is a mantra and rule we stick to on hybridz, there is no best. Most people lean towards what they are familiar with or what left them with that great handling feel. It will take quite the experience for most of us average guys to really justify the effort and time to swap in a completely new setup compared to a well setup stock setup. Edited April 16, 2015 by seattlejester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLC Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Well if your anything like me you should get 3 cars one all stock a tweener and full out custom. i like the benifits of each one all stock it's a fun antique car to take to carshows and have a sunday drive. a tweener beause z's are very capable cars with simple upgrades will satisfy anyones lust for spirited driving. and a full out custom cause you can haha. i'm working on my inbetween car now. once i buy a house and settle down i'll start my custom. This probably didnt help much but you should start by seeing in which of these categorys you fall in and start from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zilverbullet77 Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Any decisions yet? sorry I don't have the advise you seek but i'd like to see what route you take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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