71 240z... need some guidance in my plans.

[RichardPosterior]

Hey guys, i picked up a 71 240z and i need a bit of guidance. The car has nothing in it, picked up a rolling chassis and have plans for a "Sloppy Mechanics" Junkyard LQ4 Turbo build, however as i delve ever deeper into this rabbit hole i am running into issues. the car has no axles or diff at the moment and the first thing i want to get started on is the rear end. I would like the car to be able to support abuse in the 600-750whp/tq range, but i read that the rear end that normally goes in these cars can support up to about 300hp before they pretty much start self-disassembling themselves.  I am on a budget (hence the junkyard engine) but would like to build for the future too (who knows how bat shit crazy this could get....) I am not exactly a super accomplished fabricator, but i am an apprentice welder. What would support my goals for the rear end? Is there a solid axle swap? Will a R230 support my needs or be more costly than a solid axle swap? I have been told not to get nit picky with stuff, this is going to be a down and dirty car but i saved it from a almost certain death so please don't hate on me.... i always loved how these cars looked.  

[1969honda]

The R200 from a later 260/280z will support you power, it's the axles, stub shafts, companion flanges, etc that will not. Research thru the FAQs and Drive Train and fabrication sections, you will see examples of solid axle cars, Subaru rear end component swaps, ford IRS build lists, complete S13s rear subframe swaps and a plethora of others.

 

All of that said be prepared to pay to play, the S30 is an elegant and great looking chassis, but there is not a huge aftermarket support following like with a similar year American muscle car.

 

*Edited for grammar

Edited June 25, 2017 by 1969honda

[NewZed]

"Rabbit hole" seems about right.  A fantasy.  Why have you chosen such a huge amount of power as your first project?  And "on a budget".  Apprentice welder.  Seriously, what you've proposed is kind of ridiculous.

 

Here's a thread to look through - http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/125328-ford-88-irs-swap-v20/?hl=%2Bford+%2Binch

[RichardPosterior]

"Rabbit hole" seems about right.  A fantasy.  Why have you chosen such a huge amount of power as your first project?  And "on a budget".  Apprentice welder.  Seriously, what you've proposed is kind of ridiculous.

 

 

 

Why would it not be possible?  600-750whp is because if you are going to dump a shit tonne of your time and money into a car, why not have it leave you white knuckled and have a hard time keeping the clutch in since your leg is shaking so badly, that holy shit feeling, the ability to turn a little knob and have it get really ******* crazy would be awesome.  from Demahs build (LS1tech) he puts down about 470rwhp at 7lbs and has hit over 1000rwhp on stock internals. However i really don't want to bend rods. 600whp would be high boost, i included the additional 750 as a reliability buffer for suggested drive train components. I have a budget is up to 25 grand, but i would for obvious reasons like to be much lower than that.  

and yes, i went to school full time for 7 months before i got my first job at a shop, where i had worked for around 2500 hours to get my welding tickets. however, i never completed to red seal welder as i found a much better paying job that did not include toxic fumes and slag burns

 

also, you just gave my car a name "Kind of Rediculous" so, thanks for that and the link <3

[rturbo 930]

Why would it not be possible?  600-750whp is because if you are going to dump a shit tonne of your time and money into a car, why not have it leave you white knuckled and have a hard time keeping the clutch in since your leg is shaking so badly, that holy shit feeling, the ability to turn a little knob and have it get really ******* crazy would be awesome.

Because you can do that will 2/3 of that power. If you aren't familiar with these cars, be aware that it really doesn't take much power to move them, and the sense of speed is not like what you'd experience in a newer car. Unless you're drag racing, having that kind of power is overkill. I don't know what your car history is like, but if you've never had a high HP car, you may not realize exactly what you're getting into with those numbers.

 

Also consider that in order to put that kind of power down, you are going to have to upgrade the entire driveline, as well as significant chassis reinforcement.

[NewZed]

You're welcome on the name.  I didn't say it wasn't possible.  It's just not rational.

 

To followup on rturbo, pick your base engine (looks like you want to go LS) and build up from there.  The wrecking yards are sprinkled with cars that had drivers who didn't react faster than the oh shit feeling.  Just seems like you're getting ahead of yourself, if you really want to drive what you're building.  

 

On the other hand, there are many "builds" happening out there that have never been driven and they've been going on for years.

[Miles]

Tool Shed

Edited June 26, 2017 by Miles

[RichardPosterior]

Because you can do that will 2/3 of that power. If you aren't familiar with these cars, be aware that it really doesn't take much power to move them, and the sense of speed is not like what you'd experience in a newer car. Unless you're drag racing, having that kind of power is overkill. I don't know what your car history is like, but if you've never had a high HP car, you may not realize exactly what you're getting into with those numbers.

 

Also consider that in order to put that kind of power down, you are going to have to upgrade the entire driveline, as well as significant chassis reinforcement.

 

I do not doubt that, i have a 94 LT1 camaro that puts down 415rwhp with 125 shot. so i would say i am going into much much deeper waters with my goals, car being a shoe box and all.  I was inspired by a video of a

which if i recall correctly, had a thread on this forum about his car,

and it seemed docile enough on the street.  Also, i don't have a drivetrain yet, i am just starting the build and trying to get suggestions....  

 

 

You're welcome on the name.  I didn't say it wasn't possible.  It's just not rational.

 

To followup on rturbo, pick your base engine (looks like you want to go LS) and build up from there.  The wrecking yards are sprinkled with cars that had drivers who didn't react faster than the oh shit feeling.  Just seems like you're getting ahead of yourself, if you really want to drive what you're building.  

 

On the other hand, there are many "builds" happening out there that have never been driven and they've been going on for years.

 

I have been wrong before, i have made my camaro too loud before, thinking it would be awesome. after 3 hours of driving i ripped the entire exhaust off.... so i am not going to say i know EXACTLY what i want, but far as i can gather the only words of caution are about having something that will light the tires up, which in my mind is just a matter of throttle manipulation and not at all a negative thing... Having the choice is more or less what i am after.  However, if there is a solid basis on positives and negatives i may have overlooked i am not hard headed enough to overlook someones advice who has more experience than myself. From the initial greeting i received i actually thought to myself, maybe it would be better to scrap that datsun and find a more complete vehicle with a solid axle... something i can fit some friends in more easily but, i figure if i am going to invest a lot of time into something, shouldn't it be exactly what i want? 

Edited June 27, 2017 by RichardPosterior

[1969honda]

I think you are doing well at taking the feedback/reactions from everyone so far, just realize that there is no "best" or one size fits all answer for building a z on this forum. There is everything here from Ferrari replicas and concourse level restorations to strict bare bones minimalist race machines. Just take time to search the forum using Google search for different key terms of your build (engine, transmission, chassis reinforcement, etc..) and then you'll have a better understanding of the scope it takes to build a car capable of your power goals.

 

You've brought up solid axle swaps a couple times which leads me to believe you have drag racing in mind, check out Nathanwa and Stony's builds. They are both very thorough and thought out builds with solid axles IIRC. There are a few different S13 subframe swaps to get the R200 rear end and more plentiful aftermarket goodies, there is one person from down under with a Holden IRS swap IIRC and a few different versions of the Ford IRS differentials being installed as well.

 

Good luck with the build and don't get frustrated, nobody is out to bully you, they are all just giving you a crash course in what it takes and have seen a lot of builds never really get off the ground.

Edited June 27, 2017 by 1969honda

[rturbo 930]

Sometimes we get people on here (like me when I was younger) who think they're going to turn some rusty POS into a 700HP monster without realizing the time and effort involved, or that it's a stupid amount of power that is very hard to handle.

 

I still think you'll be a bit surprised at just how much power that is in a Z, given that you're looking at nearly double (on the high end) what you have now in a car that will weigh 750-1000lbs less. It's going to be a LOT faster than what you have now.

 

What condition is the car in? Pics? Sounds like it's rough, and it also sounds like you want to backhalf it. Might end up knocking out two birds with one stone there.

Edited June 27, 2017 by rturbo 930

[primaz]

Richard,

 

The Z car is an incredible car and one of the key things is the suspension and handling is part of the key to it's successful racing heritage.  You can build them into big HP supercars but as others have said the cost is often much more in time and money than typical American cars but in the end you get a car that will kick their ass on a road course and street.  To me it is a waste to turn a super handling car into a solid axel car that handles like crap.

 

You can use your welding skills as the rear quarters and the top and bottom of the front windshield were lead welded.  This is a non frame car so it is unibody design so for big HP you could use your welding skills to eliminate the lead and make those seams strong.  Also I have added custom frame rails to make the chassis strong that looks like stock from a far but to a more in the know Z owner you notice that is has been modified.  That is where your welding will definitely be valuable as that requires a lot of welding.  There are good kits from Arizona Z car and Techno Toys that changes the rear end mounts to handle Q45 and other stronger rear ends for big HP and if you go crazy then you might either add to those cryogenic treatments or go for big bucks and go for Jerico and other road race rear ends.  You DO NOT want to loose four wheel independent suspension of the Z so the bigger the HP the more the costs can scare you but it will be worth it.

 

You do not need to go that high of an HP to get these cars to out perform many others.  HP in the 300-450 will be very quick on a car that is so light.  Sure you can build them for 700 to 1000 HP but you better have the money to build it right so you keep the car a great handling machine and if you go with that HP these cars will be one of the fastest on the street and able to beat most super cars.

 

FYI, I own the Primadonna Z car as well as two other Z cars.  I have a more street 240Z with a 3 liter Datsun Spirit engine, coil overs, etc. that is pretty darn quick and handles like it is on rails and that did not need 700 HP but more like the 300's. Also most Z cars do not have the aero dynamics to fully use over 700 unless you do even more body mods.  The Primadonna is stable at high speeds and will be back on the street eventually with a 750-1000 HP RIPS racing straight 6 and will be ready to take down most supercars but it will take some years as that build is not for the faint of heart...as that will be a over 200 mph street storming monster

Edited June 27, 2017 by primaz

[RichardPosterior]

I think you are doing well at taking the feedback/reactions from everyone so far, just realize that there is no "best" or one size fits all answer for building a z on this forum. There is everything here from Ferrari replicas and concourse level restorations to strict bare bones minimalist race machines. Just take time to search the forum using Google search for different key terms of your build (engine, transmission, chassis reinforcement, etc..) and then you'll have a better understanding of the scope it takes to build a car capable of your power goals.

 

You've brought up solid axle swaps a couple times which leads me to believe you have drag racing in mind, check out Nathanwa and Stony's builds. They are both very thorough and thought out builds with solid axles IIRC. There are a few different S13 subframe swaps to get the R200 rear end and more plentiful aftermarket goodies, there is one person from down under with a Holden IRS swap IIRC and a few different versions of the Ford IRS differentials being installed as well.

 

Good luck with the build and don't get frustrated, nobody is out to bully you, they are all just giving you a crash course in what it takes and have seen a lot of builds never really get off the ground.

I tend to go back towards solid axle swaps mainly for affordability and reliability. i plan to track the car a few times but by no means am i going to be that guy there looking for that extra 1/10th of a second.  I have searched IRS rear end builds here but i can never get a satisfactory answer to reliability figures.  I will carefully go over Nathanwa and Stony's Builds, thank you for the suggestions and kind words!

 

Sometimes we get people on here (like me when I was younger) who think they're going to turn some rusty POS into a 700HP monster without realizing the time and effort involved, or that it's a stupid amount of power that is very hard to handle.

 

I still think you'll be a bit surprised at just how much power that is in a Z, given that you're looking at nearly double (on the high end) what you have now in a car that will weigh 750-1000lbs less. It's going to be a LOT faster than what you have now.

 

What condition is the car in? Pics? Sounds like it's rough, and it also sounds like you want to backhalf it. Might end up knocking out two birds with one stone there.

I have been getting a lot of feedback about power goals from you, newzed and primaz. maybe since this would be my first car without power steering or ABS boiling the tires at 80mph on the highway would not be a good idea, maybe the car is sketchy as hell?  i have started to rethink my approach. I am thinking i would just go NA for troubleshooting, do Valvesprings, cam and injectors with associated plumbing for a turbo in the future. this would have the benefits of #1 allow me to find problems with the engine/driveline without having to deal with forced injection and associated stresses and #2 avoid being beaten to death by my driveshaft while doing 80mph sideways on the highway lol

I will attach a picture, its in a trailer right now so i can't get a side picture of it. left side of the car seems to be held together with body filler, frame seems good. original seats that is about it.  More pictures next weekend when i get it in the garage. just in the planning stages right now. first step is to figure out what i am doing with the rear end. 

 

Richard,

 

The Z car is an incredible car and one of the key things is the suspension and handling is part of the key to it's successful racing heritage.  You can build them into big HP supercars but as others have said the cost is often much more in time and money than typical American cars but in the end you get a car that will kick their ass on a road course and street.  To me it is a waste to turn a super handling car into a solid axel car that handles like crap.

 

You can use your welding skills as the rear quarters and the top and bottom of the front windshield were lead welded.  This is a non frame car so it is unibody design so for big HP you could use your welding skills to eliminate the lead and make those seams strong.  Also I have added custom frame rails to make the chassis strong that looks like stock from a far but to a more in the know Z owner you notice that is has been modified.  That is where your welding will definitely be valuable as that requires a lot of welding.  There are good kits from Arizona Z car and Techno Toys that changes the rear end mounts to handle Q45 and other stronger rear ends for big HP and if you go crazy then you might either add to those cryogenic treatments or go for big bucks and go for Jerico and other road race rear ends.  You DO NOT want to loose four wheel independent suspension of the Z so the bigger the HP the more the costs can scare you but it will be worth it.

 

You do not need to go that high of an HP to get these cars to out perform many others.  HP in the 300-450 will be very quick on a car that is so light.  Sure you can build them for 700 to 1000 HP but you better have the money to build it right so you keep the car a great handling machine and if you go with that HP these cars will be one of the fastest on the street and able to beat most super cars.

 

FYI, I own the Primadonna Z car as well as two other Z cars.  I have a more street 240Z with a 3 liter Datsun Spirit engine, coil overs, etc. that is pretty darn quick and handles like it is on rails and that did not need 700 HP but more like the 300's. Also most Z cars do not have the aero dynamics to fully use over 700 unless you do even more body mods.  The Primadonna is stable at high speeds and will be back on the street eventually with a 750-1000 HP RIPS racing straight 6 and will be ready to take down most supercars but it will take some years as that build is not for the faint of heart...as that will be a over 200 mph street storming monster

 

I would love to keep the IRS if i can find a reliable solution, as you said it would ruin the handling of the 240 putting in a solid axle. however i fully intend to have a car that can boil the tires at highway speeds, if i can have it handle as well even better! I know it would be very hard for a 240z to use my power goal, but the car will be mini-tubbed to handle more tire and i don't plan on the car ever exceeding 160mph (drag strip). i am not a guy for top speed stuff. Thanks a tonne for the advice and pictures on reinforcing the chassis, i will look into this and it may become my first step rather than rear end first. I would love to hear that straight six howl once you get it together... that is for sure one thing i will regret... how awesome straight six's sound. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by RichardPosterior

[NewZed]

It's June 2017.  Let's see how long this project takes.  You need to decide if you want to boil tires or have traction.  Mint-tubbing won't be necessary if you just want to make smoke.

[primaz]

Richard,

 

I really think you should see if there a local Z club or try to find some local Z owners via this forum that has a 3.0 240Z and go for a ride.  The straight 6 of the 240Z bored to a 3.0 liter with triples will pull like a V8 and then you will be impressed with the car's handling and how it will just kick ass over the majority of the cars on the road. All you would need to do is spend some money on the motor, suspension which might be around 10K or so.

 

There are many V8 Z owners on the forum and you can build up the rear end to handle big HP.  Like I said the Arizona Z rear end conversion and the Techno Toys should handle that HP.

https:/technotoytuning.com/nissan/240z/complete-r200-r230-rear-end-conversion-z-car

The Techno toy set up claims it can handle 1000 HP and I have talked to Arizona Zcar and their rear end conversion they were confident up to around 700 HP.

 

Also for a Z car you do not do mini tubs for wide tires, you get custom offset rims and with mild flares you can then stuff 315's for example.  You do this along with upgrading the rear end to handle the HP.  You are butchering a great suspension if you mini tub it and go to straight axels.  That is just plain crazy.

 

The reason why I say this is that you clearly have never driven a true high performance Z car and I think you assume that a V8 would be great but to me that is not ideal if you change the rear end to solid axel as that would be a kin to taking a big block El Camino or 67 Camaro and doing a 3 foot lift and trying to turn those muscle cars into a 4x4 off road vehicle.

Edited June 29, 2017 by primaz