Measurements for CD009 and R154 and trans tunnel

[seattlejester]

While relatively fresh on my mind. Please feel free to correct!

 

Got a chance to do a few measurements on the CD009 and a 280z. Also compiled some measurements based off of my R154 in my 240z.

 

Early 240z 70, 71, 72 will physically fit an R154 unaltered, CD009 will fit unaltered per Exposed's picture.

R154

CD009 via Exposed

Thanks to body measurements we know the mounts on the body sit about 86mm off the floor pans.

The top of the trans tunnel sits about 285mm off the floor

Trans mount holes are 310mm apart center to center

Flange for the mount is roughly 40x40mm, although the outside edge is tapered by trans tunnel as can be seen on exposed's mounts

23 inches of room from fire wall to trans mount or 584mm, the closest recorded measurement I have on the diagram is 622.5mm to the TC bucket from the trans mounts.

 

Later 240z, 260z, and 280z will need the trans brace removed to fit. They have about 8 inches of space near where the trans cross member bolts through. They can have sufficient room  similar to the 240z with the trans brace removed, maybe more with in some regards with the catalytic converter hump.

 

Measurement                             CD009               R154

Total length                                   40                     28         keep in mind the CD009 has a tripod shifter while the R154 ends at a dust shield for the output

Face to output                              29                     27

Face to trans mount center        27                     25

Rear box dimension                   10w X 12h       9.51w x ?h     widest portion of the rear of tranny.

Trans mount bolt pattern          2 bolts 4.25 apart     4 bolts at a V like ~3 inch apart?

Shifter sits                                 ~5 backwards?                ~5 forward?

 

Early chassis trans mount bolt spacing 310mm

Early chassis trans mount span, 270mm (310mm bolt spacing, 40mm pads, 310-20x2=270) Technically almost 11 inches, but the mounts are kind of rounded so probably closer to 10.5 or 10 inches.

 

Late chassis trans mount bolt spacing ~250mm 10 inches

Late chassis trans mount span, ~200mm 8 inches

 

This was eyeballed measurements on an uncut CD009. Make sure to factor in the adapter plate width which is an additional 0.625

 

 

The following are just my thoughts for swapping from my R154 to a CD009 using collins adapters adapter.

 

My transmission sits almost flush if not a bit recessed in the trans tunnel, easily verified with the firewall to chassis trans mount measurement the offset nature of my mount and the measurement of the face to the trans mount. 25 (face to trans mount of R154) - 23 (firewall to chassis trans mount) - 2 (trans mount offset).

Exposed's trans mount is not offset and his transmission face sits 4 inches proud of the firewall + 0.625 inch for the adapter plate I imagine. With the serial 9 shifter relocate which puts the shifter at about 32 inches or so it is a suggested perfect fit. 

 

The factory cd009 shifter can with stand being shortened about 4 inches via eye balling and the shifter sits about 1.5 inches in front of the rear

Total length is about 34 inches from the face to the shifter hole via that method, using an offset shifter I can get back to 32 inch territory.

 

The question is can I pull the trans further into the trans tunnel. While the engine obviously can move forward 4.625 inches from where it sits since that is how Exposed is running his setup, that would mean new engine mounts, which in all honesty I am not opposed against, but with that comes intercooler pipe shortening exhaust lengthening, coolant line shortening, hopefully the fuel lines reach as well as the wiring. 

 

Looking at 2j-z on youtube, although his car is a 280z, he welded his cross member back pretty much under the shifter hole. His engine also sits about the same as mine does with the shock tower between cylinder 1 and 2.

 

In the spirit of stream of consciousness, that would be a problem since as it is right now I can only loosen my bell housing bolts with an angled wrench. With an adapter pushing that back even further short of access holes on the inside of the car I would have to drop the trans mount and tilt it down to get access to the top bolts. Assuming it would fit the early chassis without butchering up the factory mount brackets.

 

Not going to fly, so plan will be to move the engine forward about 2 inches as of now. That means an off set cross member with holes spanning 310mm across and about 50 mm or so back from the trans mount holes. That will also pull the shifter out of the ash tray area and not require me to fabricate or buy the CBF forward mount shifter, instead moving the bucket forward 4 inches or so and then using a 2 inch offset to push the shifter forward. In theory given the 310mm bolt hole spacing found in the FSM, and the additional 40mm mount width, that should leave a space of roughly 270mm or slightly less. that should mean the big bulge in the back of the trans should be able to be off set rearward. Only physical measurements would argue otherwise.

[malibud]

Not sure if this helps but for a point of reference. I am using the Hoke kit with the L28et sitting on stock mounts. I used the cbf shifter relocator and using the stock location for the shifter. If I hadn't use the relocator the shifter would have come through my ashtray 

[Geno750]

Moving the giant pig of an engine we have that far forward to facilitate easier shifter location will be at the detriment to handling. You want the motor as far back as possible.

[LLave]

4 hours ago, Geno750 said:

giant pig 

 

Well that is not very nice. 

 

I think that modifying the shifter is probably the most straight forward approach. With all the work you have into motor position, I would buy or build a shifter. This also has the added benefit of keeping the weight as far rearward as possible. 

[makaofox]

All I know is the CD009 is a pretty big trans and in a 280z alot of stuff needs to be cut out. My trans is pushed up as far as it can go up and it STILL scrapes on the driveway and big bumps. Its about flush with the frame rails. Also had to cut into the change holder area about 2-3in but its still very comfortable to drive. Im using Austin Hokes shifter bracket which is amazing! My only gripe is when you cut and weld the shifter shorter, it gives you decent room but the shifter itself getting into reverse is tough. Not physically .but the downward function isnt how it is in the 350z where u have to really push it down, so getting into 6th always worries me. Not that anything will happen but it isnt as smooth as a 350z would be due to not having the same support. 

[seattlejester]

On 5/1/2018 at 5:01 AM, malibud said:

Not sure if this helps but for a point of reference. I am using the Hoke kit with the L28et sitting on stock mounts. I used the cbf shifter relocator and using the stock location for the shifter. If I hadn't use the relocator the shifter would have come through my ashtray 

I think CBF and serial 9 offer some of the shortest shifters moving it forward almost 6 inches by some measurement since they don't reuse the clevis if I remember. That does help it gives a reference point. Does hoke's kit mount where the stock trans mount is roughly located with the stock L28ET? I know his is more or less user choice given that it bolts through the frame rails. Do you have the early style mounts or the later style mounts? If you had the early style were you able to keep the mounts? His mount is one of the best I've seen in terms of leaving room to route the exhaust, and flexibility to move it around. I might have to see if he is selling just the mount.

 

23 hours ago, Geno750 said:

Moving the giant pig of an engine we have that far forward to facilitate easier shifter location will be at the detriment to handling. You want the motor as far back as possible.

True, granted my motor is almost touching the firewall right now, so moving it forward would still be moved back compared to the stock L-series mount or at least equivalent. Moving it forward 2 inches would not only benefit the shifter, which I agree is a minor concern although I have quite a bit of equipment in the ashtray, the benefit is to be able to access the bolts from the engine bay for the bell housing for ease of transmission service.

 

19 hours ago, LLave said:

 

Well that is not very nice. 

 

I think that modifying the shifter is probably the most straight forward approach. With all the work you have into motor position, I would buy or build a shifter. This also has the added benefit of keeping the weight as far rearward as possible. 

Haha,

I have my brake bias and the lines for my hydro coming up through the ash tray so it would make it quite busy, and I have a sneaking suspicion that the bulge in the rear won't fit through the trans tunnel. I wasn't really happy with the motor mounts and revisiting them will give me a chance to make a jig so I can make more in a better design in the future if I choose to. Those shifter relocators are prohibitively expensive. I'll probably be building mine, but even so that kind of limits me to the 34 inch territory which would still come up a few inches into the ash tray assuming I could get back far enough in the trans tunnel on top of making the bell housing bolts all sit behind the firewall which would make that inaccessible except on a lift pretty much.

 

17 hours ago, makaofox said:

All I know is the CD009 is a pretty big trans and in a 280z alot of stuff needs to be cut out. My trans is pushed up as far as it can go up and it STILL scrapes on the driveway and big bumps. Its about flush with the frame rails. Also had to cut into the change holder area about 2-3in but its still very comfortable to drive. Im using Austin Hokes shifter bracket which is amazing! My only gripe is when you cut and weld the shifter shorter, it gives you decent room but the shifter itself getting into reverse is tough. Not physically .but the downward function isnt how it is in the 350z where u have to really push it down, so getting into 6th always worries me. Not that anything will happen but it isnt as smooth as a 350z would be due to not having the same support. 

That is what I am noticing, right now the lowest thing is the curve in my exhaust, but the whole thing sits above my frame rails, I imagine with the trans dipping down that may be a new low point in the car. I think I would try to incorporate he lower mounts and make it a tripod style again even if I shortened it. Granted I did workup a design and prototype for a shifter that uses a lever to lockout reverse similar to the aftermarket BMW shifters.

 

I'll have to take a look and see what is really feasible. Still need more measurements, maybe I can go look at Zetsaz's car to see what room I have to play with, but appreciate the hell out of everyone's thoughts. 

 

My main concerns:

1. Bellhousing bolts: I mounted the engine when I had the 7mgte, that motor uses 4 bolts similar to the L28 and the bellhousing is longer which meant I could lean in from the fender and brake them loose. Converting to 2jz, that has an integrated bell housing on the motor so it pushes the bell housing face back about an inch, more bolts, I could get a wrench on the top ones by using an angled wrench. The CD009 uses an adapter plate, that means it pushes it even further back by 0.625 inches which would mean completely inaccessible from the engine bay. Not a big deal, but would be a bit of a hassle if I wanted to pull the motor.

 

2. Transmission tail: If I am going to place the trans further back then Exposed did, that makes an assumption that the bulge clears the trans tunnel. Physically I know the outer layer of the trans tunnel is wide enough with everything removed in a 280z, I'm not sure on the 240z. Looking at the picture of Exposed's trans tunnel this may be problematic. Will need to measure. While a small consideration in the scheme of things, I'm not sure I want to cut out the factory mounts, the labor involved and such would be quite large.

 

3. Shifter: I have my proportioning valve and my hoses for the hydro coming up back in this area, it is also where I plan on installing my brake lock in the future. I could move this out of the area if the shifter came up through here, but would prefer not to if I can help it.

 

[LLave]

 

You know... regarding motor position and ideal weight balance. I have been thinking relative to my own project lately, at some point you make compromises. I am in the mode of just trying to get things done and progress the car along. Is it better? Yeah sure, but how much better? 3% better? Big deal. If something fits better, or becomes more affordable, or more practical, go for it. I am if you are trying to optimize for absolute max effort performance, let's be honest, it is the wrong platform all together.  

[seattlejester]

Actually had that discussion with a friend, he's an engineer and I poke fun at for cutting corners on his own car on occasion. His defense was along the same, it may not be the best, but given my time saved and the efficiciency loss I'm not going to notice, it is probably not worth the time.

 

The engine is quite far back in my case, which is neat, but I wouldn't mind moving it forward to near stock position if it saved me from cutting out the brackets in the trans tunnel, or allowed me to save a couple hours when I do a clutch or something. Part of why weight distribution or I guess moment since the mounts still press down in the same spot, isn't on my list of concerns. 

[malibud]

16 hours ago, seattlejester said:

I think CBF and serial 9 offer some of the shortest shifters moving it forward almost 6 inches by some measurement since they don't reuse the clevis if I remember. That does help it gives a reference point. Does hoke's kit mount where the stock trans mount is roughly located with the stock L28ET? I know his is more or less user choice given that it bolts through the frame rails. Do you have the early style mounts or the later style mounts? If you had the early style were you able to keep the mounts? His mount is one of the best I've seen in terms of leaving room to route the exhaust, and flexibility to move it around. I might have to see if he is selling just the mount.

trans nounts were cut. Hoke installed mine I will post a few pictures. I think the location is about the same you can email him direct to get more clarity.

 

 

7

 

[seattlejester]

I think I found the pictures. Looks like the top of the mounts clearly interfere. 

 

https://hokeperformance.squarespace.com/l-series-350z-6-speed-adapter

 

I think I can accept that as a reality. I'd rather not drag the transmission, and if the cost is to loose the stock mounts and have to figure out something with the floor, then so be it.

[malibud]

That's my car. yes the stock trans mounts have to go.. 

[seattlejester]

Thanks to Zetsaz, I have an interesting piece to play with.

The trans tunnel from a 1971 240z, or at least a portion of it.

 

Some more measurements from today.

 

The trans tunnel interference point is a 10in by 6in box with a 2.5in tall trapezoid with a 10in bottom and a 6.5in top.

 

This definitely fouls on the sandwich portion of the transmission, but if similar to how Exposed mount it if you just use the tail shaft you can have quite a bit of room

That is I believe with a 1.5 inch offset. So moving the trans back 1.5 inches from where Exposed has his, that would make this almost dream like, moving my engine mounts forward less than an inch might even be doable without any fabrication or just with welding the brackets into place.

 

The only thing that gets in the way is a sensor on the side, which may be the reverse sensor I haven't really looked it up to confirm.

I didn't really think it through, as I just wanted the mounts, but luckily I grabbed a mounting point on the chassis along with the trans tunnel. I think it holds the ash tray or the center console, but as it is long gone I don't recall what it is, for now this point is indicated as point X from now on. Point X is 35mm in behind the bolt center for the trans tunnel.

(Point X at the tip of the step drill)

 

21 inches from point X to fire wall

12 inches from point X to the back of the stock shifter hole

8.5 inches back from point X is pretty much perfect for the shifter

 

8.25in from the TC bucket to the fire wall? Converts to 209.55mm. Taking away from the previous number we get from the chassis diagram we arrive with the trans tunnel length from firewall to transmission chassis mount of 413mm or 16.26in. That does not seem right. I'm measuring almost 21 inches from the fire wall using the X point offset of 1.5 inches that puts the internal distance from the center of the trans cross member to the firewall at 19.5 inches. That makes more sense with the R154 currently installed as well. After checking my R154 is 2 inch stick out past firewall, it seems like it sits recessed as the head of the bolt sits further back as in the casting for the face is more than an inch for some of the bolts. With a 25 inch total length from bell housing to mount point (granted I am realizing this is most likely for a 7M), this puts it at about 23 inches. At 19.5 inch that means the offset in the mount is about 3.5 inch which seems more likely than the 6.5 inch offset the numbers say. I really need to get under there with a tape measure.

 

Some measurements for sure.

40.5 inches trans length total from bell housing to shifter mount un-cut

27 inches from the bell housing face to the bolt center on the mounts for the transmission

34 inches is the trans length from bell housing to shifter shaft with the shifter moved forward as much as it can be via cut and weld without going for something like a CBF or full standalone clevis delete setup.

 

The shifter to trans mount is at what looks to be a 7 inch offset. That means with the trans lined up with the rear mount you do get almost a perfect lineup with a shortened shifter. In my case I can even push the trans back another 1.5 inches and move it forward via an offset and still have the shift ball in the perfect spot, not cut the trans mounts out, and in theory have the engine only move forward an inch or maybe less.

 

Trans tunnel to the factory trans mount: via Exposed's measurement saying he was 4 inches proud of the fire wall, and knowing 27 inches to the factory mount center line on the transmission I surmised 23 inches. I'm getting ~21 inches according to my tape measure from the inside to point X which I know is 35mm behind the centerline which converts to ~19.X inches . According to the written measurements and my TC bucket to firewall measurement it is 16.3 inches, using a digital tape measure it says more like 17 inches. I really need to confirm this measurement to really start moving forward for real. If anyone has that measurement it would help immensely as a data point.

 

Transmission mount pad is 13.5cm wide and 7cm tall with it centered, it can go up to 8cm but tall with off set holes on the pad

 

Trans bolt spacing is 4.25 inches. An Energy Suspension GM transmission mount should work. If not I believe the Jeep engine mount would work for as long as the height clears.

 

I do realize this may be annoying for some, like "why don't you just go do it." I really want to have my ducks in a row, maybe with enough measurements even build the trans and engine mounts ahead of time would be the ultimate end goal, most likely a pipe dream, but still. The plan is to do this in friend's garage, and having this all figured out before I even start can mean getting a drive shaft made and mounts all sorted ahead of time and making this a weekend project instead of a whole week or two type of project.

[Zetsaz]

That mounting point on the top side of the piece I gave you is the original fuse box and the smaller side farther to the passenger side should be the cigarette lighter 

 

 

[seattlejester]

Hmm I thought the cigarette lighter was on the dash. Although mine is filled in, but the point X would be the front edge of the bracket that holds the cigarette lighter in your picture.

 

Also thanks for the measurements. 

 

The number we have to play with is 31.5-32 inches from the pocket to the firewall.

 

The pocket sits 1.5 inches behind the rear edge of the shifter hole. 

 

I have to go back and measure, but I'm pretty sure that is 12 inches back from point X and point X sits about 1.5 inches from the trans mounts.

 

That means tentatively the length from the firewall to the trans mounts in the early 71, 72 Z cars is 17 inches which is more in line with what the digital tape measure says it should be. 

[seattlejester]

^Saved, but never submitted apparently.

 

This is getting so technical and specific to me I don't think it will help anyone down the road. Granted I think I'll model this in case someone wants to play with that at a later date.

 

So I crawled under the car today. Definitive eyeball answer says, ~17.5 inches from firewall to stock chassis trans mount. This is almost perfectly confirmed by Zetsaz who measured 32 inches from the pocket behind the shifter to the firewall. I measured 13 inches from the pocket to point X + the 1.5 inch offset of point X to trans mount + the 17.5 inch I measured from the firewall to the trans mount adds up exactly to 32 inches.

 

The R154 with the 2jz bell housing is actually 24 inches from the bell to mount, which makes sense since the 2jz incorporates a built in shield instead of separate pieces like the 7m.

The offset of my mount is actually a surprising ~5 inches.

Shifter sits about 4 inches forward of roughly centerish in the shifter hole.

 

That all ads up to my bell housing face being ~2 inches in front of the fire wall.

 

The CD009 is 27 inches from bell to mount so 3 inches longer.

At most with the stock mounts it can sit back wards about ~ 3 inches behind before fouling.

 

So with it inline with the stock mounts the trans would be ~9.5 inches past the firewall, + the .625 inch adapter plate pushing my engine forward almost 8 inches (from the original 2 inches it already sticks out). Although Exposed's engine doesn't sit 9 inches from where mine is, which is blowing my mind.

 

With it sunk back 3 inches it would be ~6.5 inches past the firewall, pushing my engine forward ~5 inches forward from where my engine is.

 

Oddly enough, I actually have another set of transmission tunnel mounts from when I made a straight cross member for the R154. That means, using those mounts and cutting out the stock mounts to make room, I can start with my 0 point being 5 inches back.

 

That means using my rearward mounts, bell housing would be 4.5 inches past the fire wall, pushing my engine forward about 3 inches with the adapter plate.

 

With it pushed back the 3 inches on top of using the rear mounts that puts the bell housing about 1.5 inches past the firewall, pushing my engine forward 0 inches with the adapter plate. That seems like it would be ridiculously easy.

 

The shifter being 34 inches back...2 inch stick out + 17.5 inch to chassis mount + 1.5 to point X + 8.5 or 9.5 for ideal shifter placement 4 inches back. This is basically going to sit in the pocket. Or right in front of it. I can move the drive train forward a little bit so I don't get an awkward shifter, plus I think I need the room anyways to make sure I can access the bell housing and adapter bolts.

 

So I've made my peace. Stock trans tunnel mounts are going to have to be removed. I can either recycle my rear mounts or cut it out and start fresh, but that is an option back there. Shifter will be shortened 4 inches and hopefully pop up near the shift hole. Transmission will be sunk in ~ 7 inches from where the stock trans tunnel mounts were. Engine mounts will be pushed forward 1-2 inches. Exhaust will have to be redone, radiator hoses will need to be shortened. I think that is it though. 

 

[seattlejester]

The black sensor on the passenger side is the neutral position switch. I think it would be safe just to cut the plastic and the tabs off.

 

Reverse switch is on the driver side and is a light blue color.

 

Drive shaft yoke apparently is a Spicer 3503-323 (only online verified, I'll have to ask at the drive shaft store)

 

Energy Suspension GM style polyurethane mount should work, may require a bit of filing for the spacing. 3.1108R or 3.1108G is almost 2 inches tall at 1 15/16 inch. 3.1158R or 3.1158G is the same mount but lower profile and comes in at 1 5/8 inch tall. There is a 3.1142R and 3.1142G, but it does not have the diagrams. Additionally you can apparently use the Z32 (300zx) style mounts. Those are more interesting in that it is a plate with side rubber forward and aft. Or you can stick with the stock mount.

 

 

Example of the shortened stock shifter. You can't do more without changing the selector shaft to receive like a ball and socket for the pivot action.

[seattlejester]

Picked up a 350z drive shaft from the wreckers for $80. The stock drive shaft at least for the 350z is a carbon-fiber/plastic composite. Crazy light, but a bit more troublesome to fabricate with. The u-joints looked like they are staked so potentially non replaceable as well. I'll have to see what the drive shaft shop says, I'm going to try and cut the composite portion off so it is just the metal yoke to play with, worse case I'll have to pony up for the spicer joint listed above.

 

Welding the shifter tripod is a bit of a tricky business. Aluminum is an excellent heat sink and this style has the rubber bushings so we spent quite a bit of time heating up the material, getting a bead in, and then trying to quench just the ends with the bushings in it. 

 

The shifter bracket is rough as well as it has a staked in u-joint so heating it up you will boil the grease out of the piece. Quench it too hard and you will probably propagate a crack so similarly you need to find a balance.

 

Quite troublesome, it may be worthwhile to try and grab the mount from an earlier CD001 which don't have the bushings in so you can just zap away.

 

You have to make sure the shifter bracket has enough clearance to clear both the drive shaft and the shortened knuckle has enough space to clear the bracket. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[seattlejester]

Engine moved forward a whole 1.5 inches with my current mounts so I made out like a bandit there. In my application I can't move it forward much more or else I risk the crank trigger wheel hitting the sway bar. 

 

Waiting on some tools to pull the pilot bearing and move onto getting the adapter and such installed, not looking forward to grinding out the trans tunnel. The mounts I put in in the back are not inline, they do have captive nuts and all, but one sits higher than the other and they jut out quite a bit I'm afraid one is going to foul the shifter if not the drive shaft.

[seattlejester]

There is pretty much no chance of getting the transmission in without cutting out the factory mounts.

 

Use eye protection, a grinding hood or safety glasses is a must. The trans mounts are pretty easy to remove. cuts along the side one to meet the cuts at the top, and one on the bottom outboard of the nut plate and it will come out. You can use a flapper disc or to get it really flat, or a hammer to make room. 

 

Tips for mounting the transmission.

 

Use a nice flat piece of wood or metal and a piece of rope to hold the tail end up. You can roll it and the flat plus the weight should keep it from untangling. A ratchet strap could be an alternative. For the engine side a couple heavy duty zip ties can help line up a couple holes to get started.

 

Really consider a transmission jack. We were using a combo of 2 jacks and it is precarious for sure. Might go grab one for final assembly.

 

My engine sits about 3.5ish inches from the firewall. The transmission is fairly long the shift tower does indeed interfere with basically everything. After considering making new mounts to gain an inch or so and save my little change pocket with the brake adjuster, friend and I decided to just cut everything out. The change pouch is cut to the grommet, the grommet area is them slit along the sides and pulled up, the sides are then rolled against the tunnel.

 

Still need to widen the opening to basically push the shift tower more into the cabin, but as it is now the trans is barely under the frame rails. Clearancing the sides and bringing the tower up another inch or so (the top of the trans will almost be touching the top of the trans tunnel), will keep the trans from being the lowest point. The shifter location is completely workable. With the short shifter getting all gears is simple. Plus with the engine still back I can rotate the crank or swap out the belts without having to pull the radiator.

 

Looks like the trans will fit and I won't have to make new engine mounts for the time being. 

[Geno750]

One trick I've done for the shifter side is use a long bolt that threads into the shifter plate cover. From inside the cab of the car you take a board and your long bolt and use that to hold the rear up. Board Bridges the gap for the shifter. Then you can loosen/tighten the bolt and use washers to dial in the height of the tail side if the trans. Makes making the mounts easier.