240z SCCA vintage race car, restoration

[AydinZ71]

12 hours ago, clarkspeed said:

Greg is the Zen master if you want to interpret EP rules. He has been to the tech shed many times. I have personally been there.. Vintage is a little looser for sure. But again there is a gold medallion level and acceptance to Rollex historic in Laguna at the other end. I have seen newer built cars accepted there, but they must be correct.

 

Perhaps a question again, are you going to sell it or race the shit out of it?

ah man that’s a GREAT question. I think we have learned that I’m incapable of just “flipping” a car. Certainly throw my passion into it. 
 

I’d like to race it, and see if paltry skills are up to the challenge of this over-thought race car. To be honest, I have 0 racing experience but I’d like to try! Maybe I get some track time before I get my novice license ($2200 course). 
 

heck I’d even be willing to loan the car to a driver at the track to get their perspective and learnings on how the car is handling (and should handle). 
I do have a lot of great canyons and windy roads for me to “test” her out. Nothing dangerous or speeding. The corners are tight enough to stress the car without excessive speed. I just need to get a neck brace since the chassis crush zones are mostly gone. 
 

she is licensed, insured, etc. other than the roll cage, she isn’t a huge attention grabber. I do need to focus on sounds attenuation as much as I can before hurting performance. Most track out on the west coast have sound restrictions, and my neighbors would appreciate it during tuning. 

[clarkspeed]

Well then go for it. It should be a nice car when complete. And dont worry too much about the rules as long as you can reverse things. My tube car is kind of dual purpose in that respect. It could convert to scca gt3 if desired. And I usually tidy things up before I sell because it is worth more if it can be raced in many organizations.

 

Cool, do your enging tuning on the street if able. That can save a lot of time. Of I were starting from 0, I would go ahead and do a race school. One where they provide the car. It's not cheap, but you will learn more in 3 days than any other way. Most likely you will come away motivated, committed, and understand how a good car should feel. 

 

Then you will want to do some hot lapping on a track to sort the car out.  Plus you can run with open groups since you had the school. Get some help from an expert on setup if you want to speed that up.. At that point you should have a good idea on what you want to do next to support your new addiction.

[AydinZ71]

13 hours ago, clarkspeed said:

Well then go for it. It should be a nice car when complete. And dont worry too much about the rules as long as you can reverse things. My tube car is kind of dual purpose in that respect. It could convert to scca gt3 if desired. And I usually tidy things up before I sell because it is worth more if it can be raced in many organizations.

 

Cool, do your enging tuning on the street if able. That can save a lot of time. Of I were starting from 0, I would go ahead and do a race school. One where they provide the car. It's not cheap, but you will learn more in 3 days than any other way. Most likely you will come away motivated, committed, and understand how a good car should feel. 

 

Then you will want to do some hot lapping on a track to sort the car out.  Plus you can run with open groups since you had the school. Get some help from an expert on setup if you want to speed that up.. At that point you should have a good idea on what you want to do next to support your new addiction.

 

Thanks for the encouragement Clark! Yeah i need to save up for the 3-day course. Its ~$2500 if you use their cars, and $2k if i bring my own. Maybe late winter/spring on 2022. Since you recommend using their car, I will look into that!

[AydinZ71]

Hey all! What are your thoughts on hood pins for road racing? All four corners? Hinge the front, pins near the cowl?

 

Got a recommendation to use the quick-latch, and they seem to be fairly light. 
 

I just picked up my FRP hood from John Washington (Ztrix) for the race car. Now to mock-up the mounts. 

[calZ]

Four (or more) pins definitely make it easier to get into the engine bay and do things, but 2 pins and hinging it is infinitely easier if you're by yourself. You also avoid needing to find space to set the hood or worrying about the wind flipping it and ruining the paint. It's all tradeoffs.

[AydinZ71]

On 10/28/2021 at 5:47 PM, calZ said:

Four (or more) pins definitely make it easier to get into the engine bay and do things, but 2 pins and hinging it is infinitely easier if you're by yourself. You also avoid needing to find space to set the hood or worrying about the wind flipping it and ruining the paint. It's all tradeoffs.

Hmm… yeah the hinge does sound infinitely easier, but the hinge, bolts, and mounting nuts are all quite heavy. I’m leaning 2X 3/8 quick latches in the front and 2X 1/4” in the rear. There is a tremendous amount of force on the leading edge, and at only 12.5lbs the Ztrix hood doesn’t have much weight to counteract. I might even go with 3 in the front 🤷🏽‍♂️. 
 

now I need to carry around foam pads to set the hood down every time I take it off 😂

[AydinZ71]

Just now, AydinZ71 said:

Hmm… yeah the hinge does sound infinitely easier, but the hinge, bolts, and mounting nuts are all quite heavy. I’m leaning 2X 3/8 quick latches in the front and 2X 1/4” in the rear. There is a tremendous amount of force on the leading edge, and at only 12.5lbs the Ztrix hood doesn’t have much weight to counteract. I might even go with 3 in the front 🤷🏽‍♂️. 
 

now I need to carry around foam pads to set the hood down every time I take it off 😂

 

[AydinZ71]

Rad support area almost done. Need to mock up mounts for the oil cooler and accusump. 

[clarkspeed]

My last couple of cars I mounted a couple aluminum C channels about 5" long on the cowl, then used 2 hood pins to secure the front near the radiator. Makes it quick and fast to remove and install. The Ztrix hood is fairly rigid, I dont think you will have a problem holding with 4 points.

 

For the car I am building I will do something similar in the back, but probably 2 straight pins mounted to hood and a receptical near the cowl. For the front 2 pins I went way overboard. I bought a pair of cheap Aerolatch knockoffs. Then modified the design to something a little better looking and working. Then 3d printed my own version of a hidden latch. Here is a pic of the first prototype. I could not find any finished pics.

 

https://www.facebook.com/262575520591481/posts/1754987928016892/

 

 

[AydinZ71]

Whoa that’s pretty cool! 
 

Greg suggested quick latch so il giving it a shot. He said he has 6 total! I’m encouraged to hear you got away with two, that is helpful. 

I bought 2X 3/8” quick latches for the front, and 2X 1/4” for the back (cowl).

 

I thought about using a mechanical shear coupling in the rear instead of a pin, but when I thought it up I was not convinced it was any lighter than just using pins. Sounds more convenient though! Just slip it into place, then click the front latches.

 

 

[clarkspeed]

I had to Google quick latch. I call those button latches. I used them in my passenger door. Greg uses 2 locking Aerolatch on hood of the EP car. He said people may sabotage car at runoffs.

 

FYI you can get the quick/ button style latches super cheap direct from China. 

 

I use true military grade cam lock fasteners on my back hatch. We used the same when I worked in aerospace on space shuttle. They are expensive but small and strong. And damn they work well. I have 4 butterfly camlocks on the back hatch. Plenty strong enough for hood too, but kind of small to fiddle with flathead screw type if you are in a hurry. And I did not think the butterflies would look good there, even though they are tiny. Again, quick and easy to remove/install panel and they align quickly. My crew loves my hatch and hood solutions.

A hood that slides into something at the firewall and has 2 button latches in front would be fastest to remove/install of all.

It is amazing how critical an interface the hood and hatch are. It is inevitable your crew or yourself will be trying to closeout these spaces as fast as you can go. Quick positive lock with no error is so important. 4 hood pins with cotter pins doesn't cut it.

Edited November 1, 2021 by clarkspeed

[AydinZ71]

@clarkspeed thanks Clark! You have given me plenty to think about. Some responses below. Again, thanks for all the feedback! 
 

1) yep, the quik latch is something Greg told me about last week. He said he uses 6 in total but he was busy preparing for Daytona so I could make out on which car he had done so. The reviews all seem pretty good too. I liked they came in different sizes for varying load and were pretty light (more importantly, they POST the weight in their FAQ. Have not had such luck with Info on others). It will be years (if ever) before I will need to worry about being competitive by any means, so I might not have sabatoge to worry about 😂😂😂 good point though! 
 

2) I also found some cheap knockoffs but I’m anxious to take the risk. If I can’t get the silly thing to latch right at an event, I’m toast. Im going broke, but broken is worse 😂

 

3) il look into the shear coupling again (sliding the hood into a “slot” towards the cowl so you don’t need a vertical latch). If I can attach a bracket to the hood with some confidence, maybe you are right about giving it a shot. Then like you said, I’d only need 2 in the front. The hood is certainly light enough to handle as one person in this manner (12.25lbs). Gotta hand it to mr. Washington.

 

4) I do need a solution for the FRP hatch. A link, pic or info on the camlok coupling you are using? I was going to use a single quik-latch alternatively. I am going to get their mini ones for my fuel cell cover. Button latch seems pretty damn convenient.

 

4) I currently have these old-school butterfly locks on my air dam and doors. Previous owner used them. I think il keep them for now, just  so I have less fab work. 
 

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Butterfly-Self-Ejecting-Quarter-Turn-Fasteners-700-In-Grip-Pack-10,29694.html?sku=91007126&utm_medium=CSEGoogle&utm_source=CSE&utm_campaign=CSEGOOGLE&gclid=CjwKCAjwoP6LBhBlEiwAvCcthDdqalvfzcDCctGA6VfGBdR-ev_hJLk6YUC8RNqy9s0w8ars3t7-CxoCS7EQAvD_BwE

[clarkspeed]

The standard 1/4 turn are easy to find. I don't recommend buying from Speedway, those are made a little too thin. I learned my lesson there.  I buy the Panel-fast from Brehents. I use them to secure all my body panels.

 

I think the camloc's are a Euro aerospace thing for interior panels. A lot of aircraft companies sell them. I can't remember who I bought them from last time. These guys seem to have similar. The adjustable receptacle is nice if unsure of panel thickness

.

https://sri-supplies.com/

 

 

 

[AydinZ71]

26 minutes ago, clarkspeed said:

The standard 1/4 turn are easy to find. I don't recommend buying from Speedway, those are made a little too thin. I learned my lesson there.  I buy the Panel-fast from Brehents. I use them to secure all my body panels.

 

I think the camloc's are a Euro aerospace thing for interior panels. A lot of aircraft companies sell them. I can't remember who I bought them from last time. These guys seem to have similar. The adjustable receptacle is nice if unsure of panel thickness

.

https://sri-supplies.com/

 

 

 

Thanks Clark!

 

the link to speedway was just a reference to what is already on the car (I didn’t know the “official” name of these fittings). Sorry for the confusion. I don’t plan on buying or installing anymore of these twist things. 
 

Thanks for info on the camlock! 
 

attached are some progress shots. Rad support is done. Need to work on oil cooler and accusump mounts. 
 

 

[AydinZ71]

[AydinZ71]

…. And the oil cooler is in 🥳

 

 

[AydinZ71]

EDIS coil (for megajolt) is in. 3.5lb sucker, she’s a brick. Mounted low and back. Any further back and she will interfere with the accusump. 

[AydinZ71]

accusump is mounted, along with remote actuator cable. 
 

cleaned up the inner fender (unibody). Removed about 0.75lbs which I will use for reinforcement elsewhere.

 

added vertical strut tower reinforcement. Trying to avoid using a strut tower brace. Trying to convince myself the tower reinforcement will make it irrelevant. 
 

found an exhaust collector that works for the header tube OD. Needs to be modified for 2.75” outlet. 
 

made a rad overflow dip tube (plated copper sold for toilets) so it will “suck” overflow back into rad. Topping off the rad and draining the overflow seems silly. 
 

Greg said my 3” cold air funnel was too small. Widened it to 4” equivalent perimeter. 
 

My used accusump leaks from the air-oil side. Bummer… live and learn 

[tube80z]

Unless there are some missing tubes a strut tower brace is still going to help.  On my old car I had the cage tied in similar to this and did some push/pull testing using a hydraulic ram and found the towers would still move.  It will be a lot less but they will still move.  And I could tell when it wasn't attached, as the car seemed a little slower to respond.

 

I don't know if historic or SCCA EP will let you do this but if you reinforce the top of the tower and connect it to the vertical you'll lose another area of movement.  Another way would be to use a thicker camber plate top plot that's connected to your vertical tube.  

 

If you are going to use spacers for bumpsteer that are longer than an inch on the steering arrm, I'd recommend TIGing the largest spacer to the arm.  As stupid as that sounds it makes a difference.  If you bend the arm down then you probably don't need to worry about it.

 

Cary   

[AydinZ71]

16 hours ago, tube80z said:

Unless there are some missing tubes a strut tower brace is still going to help.  On my old car I had the cage tied in similar to this and did some push/pull testing using a hydraulic ram and found the towers would still move.  It will be a lot less but they will still move.  And I could tell when it wasn't attached, as the car seemed a little slower to respond.

 

I don't know if historic or SCCA EP will let you do this but if you reinforce the top of the tower and connect it to the vertical you'll lose another area of movement.  Another way would be to use a thicker camber plate top plot that's connected to your vertical tube.  

 

If you are going to use spacers for bumpsteer that are longer than an inch on the steering arrm, I'd recommend TIGing the largest spacer to the arm.  As stupid as that sounds it makes a difference.  If you bend the arm down then you probably don't need to worry about it.

 

Cary   

Thank you Cary! I must have been channeling your thoughts or something because I finally gave-in and added the critical “inward” facing brace. This late in the game, I am hyper critical about adding weight, but I weighed the 18-gauge 1” tube I am using, and all-in it will only be 3lbs added (including the cabin attachment to and from the firewall/roll-bar.

 

I already used a stiffening tube on the drivers side to keep the reinforced pedal assembly from flexing. Greg said he pushes so hard (tilton assembly, no booster) he can feel the firewall flex, so I thought I’d get ahead of it. therefore, only passenger side needed the extra attachment in the cab (hence 3 vs 4lbs)

 

the great news on the strut bar is I can add it anytime. I have a T3 one sitting around I bought used a while ago. Clearly, the permanent reinforcing NEEDS to get done at this stage. 
 

the camber plates are ground-control bolt-in (EP rules) and they have a HEAVY 1/2” thick mild steel plate. I have thickened the tower mounting surface with some MIG metal, since the overlapping spot welded 20-gauge isn’t doing me much favors. Also stick welded the bottom lip of the OEM tower mounting surface (thicker, my guess is 16-gauge equivalent) so the tower braces I installed have continuous steel to the thickened portion. Can’t rely on the spot welds to transmit the stress without a ton of flex.

 

if my setup is anything like Greg’s, I will need a 2-3” bump steer/roll-center correction spacer. Do you have any pics of the “bend” you were describing? I have not sectioned my front struts yet (tears are done) and I’m a bit of a front suspension novice. 
 

attached are some updated pics.

 

thanks again for or you input Cary! Sometimes feels like folks aren’t using the forum very much, so your comments motivate me to continue posting.