Looking to get into Megasquirt Diy kit

[Zellthetunerr]

I have a 1983 Datsun 280zx N/A P79 head. I want to turbo this thing so I am looking to get into MS2. I have heard that you need a turbo dizzy and also that you don't need one if you aren't going to run sequential EFI or Coil on Plug IGN. Neither of which I plan to run do due to the fact that I want 300 hp. I don't have huge injectors and I don't see the worth of going sequential efi. this isn't going to be a drag car. Its gonna be a fun weekend warrior car that I can enjoy. I know the cr is a bit high and I'm also on the look for a 2mm head gasket. So my question is if I actually need to do anything to the distributor to run MS2 on regular batch fire and non COP ignition. I don't see this topic yet but If I find it then I will delete this post since the info is already out there. Thanks again for your help, and I look forward to the project.

 

[rvannly]

I've used megasquirt since before the ms1. Megasquirted over 15 cars and my advice is to go EDIS 6 MS2. Rock solid tach signal and easy instructions. Ms2 because its cheap and the processor is fast enough for basic setups. Only thing is getting the 36-1 trigger wheel adapted to the crank pulley. If you want to run the turbo dizzy, it is almost a must to get the drop-in DIYAutotune trigger wheel (out of stock right now, was told they are redesigning and need beta testers with unclear time of release). Ive used it a bunch on KA's and an SR20. It will give you the cleanest signal with options like different coils and eliminate the stock coil and wires. As far as batch or sequential, batch is fine and doesn't care if you have edis or turbo dizzy. 

 

The biggest tip and biggest hurdle with MS or any ecu is getting a clean tach/rpm signal. I tried vr sensors and never got good enough results, but had major success with hall sensors(BMW) or optical sensors (Nissan). Just remember this, the tach signal the ecu needs is the most important signal period. 

 

The learning curve is huge for the build it yourself kits. If you have a buddy that has experience with megasquirt and can actually help in person I would make him/her your best buddy quick. There's a lot of info out there, but boy is there a lot and trying to get help via emails or message boards is time consuming and not efficient. This is not a weekend project and expect maybe months or more of downtime. 

 

[Zellthetunerr]

@rvannly

 

thanks for your response but my car already has months of downtime on the brakes, wheels, suspension, interior, fluids and chassis alone. The rust isn’t crazy but it’s not just surface rust either.

 

Yeah I’m on board with the MS2 + Ford EDIS. I’ve seen people run them and get pretty good results for not too much money spent. Can I use just any EDIS-6 module and coil pack from any Ford with a V6? That’s my short term question as I’m on the lookout for them in my local junkyards. I’ve also seen people run Chrysler coil packs. I’ll do more research on that end. 
 

I wouldn’t doubt that the diy kits will take a lot of time but I’m up for it. I understand the time I’ll have to wait. Simply getting my car driving will take years. Haha, just an endless money pit. 
 

another short term question is if I can use a GM Hall sensor instead of a BMW?

 

thanks again for your insights….  

[Zellthetunerr]

I’m also looking into removing the airflow meter and running MAP and IAT sensor instead of MAF. Still researching on it. But another thing to consider before buying it. 

[rvannly]

I am in the same boat in terms of long term projects. In over ten years, I've had 4 240z's and only have been able to drive one of them around the block a few times. Although, I am very close to getting my latest and only 240z running this summer finally. 

 

For the EDIS 6 module, I usually get them from the v6 Mustang. The Vr sensor can be from the same car or Escorts and Taurus. The edis module will only work with vr sensors so no BMW hall sensors here. The coilpack can be from any of the v6's as they're essentially the same. Stick to these coil packs because their dwell times are documented and matches the module so when the time comes you will know what to enter into Turnerstudio. The trigger wheel can also be from the same car or a new wheel from DiyAutotune. 

Whenever you use the EDIS module, you will want to keep all of the ford components because that's what they were designed for. I have been successful in running motorcycle coil on plugs with the edis module, but never had the car long enough to determine its long term use. Looks cool but that was about it. 

 

With Megasquirt you will definitly be able to remove the afm as the ecu has a built in MAP sensor. 

 

There's a lot to read and learn, but for me at least, this is part of the fun. 

 

 

[Zetsaz]

If you like doing this sort of work, I will definitely say some of the learning is half the fun.

 

That being said, there are a lot of cars out there sitting on jack stands for years because people don't anticipate just how involved it is, and how steep the initial learning curve is. If, alternatively, you like driving your car a lot and just want to get it moving and enjoy it, I might suggest buying one of the "plug and play" kits that you can now get from vendors like godzilla raceworks or ProTunerz. They'll get you up and going with a base tune probably within a weekend if you're working and read instructions carefully. 

I spent entirely too long accumulating parts and overthinking things, and if I could do things again, I would get the car running asap and slowly decide small things I NEED to upgrade. That being said, megasquirt is a massive upgrade, and well worth it if you really commit and get it going. My 2 year old paint job is already fairly imperfect from driving this thing down the pacific coast highway from Seattle to LA, and even driving through some dirt roads so I could drive it through the Chandelier Tree. Every step of the way the efficiency was better and fuel was burned more completely (you're not in open loop on the injectors at faster highway speeds), meaning I had almost no fumes along the drive.

 

MS2 kits get the job done well, but I will warn you that most tuners I know of won't mess with them that much anymore because they're getting a bit dated. MS3 is only a small step up. If you go MS2, I would make sure you get an assembled kit. 

[Zellthetunerr]

@Zetsaz

Thanks for all the info. But I do like learning and building the car. Don’t get me wrong, the first drive will be amazing but soldering, getting the settings right for all the sensors, doing the actual tuning, modding/fabricating

 

All of it seems really fun and interesting to me. I understand that it’s a lot of downtime, but the car is already on tons of downtime the way it is. I can’t see why not doing it. 
 

On the note of MS3, it’s great but I won’t use the FULL potential of it which is full sequential fuel and spark. Like I said this will be a fun weekend warrior that I can enjoy. This won’t be a drag car or a full on track build, if it was then yeah I’d go with MS3 full sequential spark and fuel. 

[Zetsaz]

1 hour ago, Zellthetunerr said:

@Zetsaz

Thanks for all the info. But I do like learning and building the car. Don’t get me wrong, the first drive will be amazing but soldering, getting the settings right for all the sensors, doing the actual tuning, modding/fabricating

 

All of it seems really fun and interesting to me. I understand that it’s a lot of downtime, but the car is already on tons of downtime the way it is. I can’t see why not doing it. 
 

On the note of MS3, it’s great but I won’t use the FULL potential of it which is full sequential fuel and spark. Like I said this will be a fun weekend warrior that I can enjoy. This won’t be a drag car or a full on track build, if it was then yeah I’d go with MS3 full sequential spark and fuel. 

 

Then I'm sure you'll enjoy!

 

Sequential fuel and spark aren't options on MS3 unless you get the MS3X board to go with it. That's why I suggested the upgrade to MS3 if you can. MS3X is a whole other step up

EDIT: They are options, but I think it's still limited to 4cyl sequential fuel. Would need some modding for more. The notable (and useful) upgrades you get over MS2 are SD card logging, USB-serial (instead of having to use an old Serial cable), finer resolution on fuel tables, and more up to date support on the 3.57 boards through MS Extra.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Zetsaz

[Zetsaz]

EDIT: Double post

Edited March 16, 2022 by Zetsaz

[Zellthetunerr]

@Zetsaz

 

i have found a EMS company called SPEEDUINO or WTMTronics here in the U.S. . I can probably get an assembled unit from there and who knows about the VR conditioner to get the tach signal. But I CAN afford an assembled unit from there, but the only thing is the harness. They don’t come with one. It’s still a lot of work but a lot less than assembling the ECU PCB. Thanks a lot again.

[Michael]

At the risk of diluting or derailing this thread, it's worth observing, that over the past 20-25 years, the pantheon of aftermarket electronic engine management systems has become bewilderingly complicated and sophisticated.  This is fine for the expert, or even the dedicated hobbyist.  But where does this leave the guy who just wants to hop-up his naturally aspirated carbureted engine, to idle better, get slightly better mpg and maybe a flatter torque curve?  It seem that that customer base - which, perhaps naively, I'd imagine to be the majority of the hot-rod hobby - isn't being well-served.  Why is that?

[calZ]

5 hours ago, Michael said:

At the risk of diluting or derailing this thread, it's worth observing, that over the past 20-25 years, the pantheon of aftermarket electronic engine management systems has become bewilderingly complicated and sophisticated.  This is fine for the expert, or even the dedicated hobbyist.  But where does this leave the guy who just wants to hop-up his naturally aspirated carbureted engine, to idle better, get slightly better mpg and maybe a flatter torque curve?  It seem that that customer base - which, perhaps naively, I'd imagine to be the majority of the hot-rod hobby - isn't being well-served.  Why is that?

For that, there's the self-learning FI systems that just replace the carburetor. If you want anything more complicated than that, there's a large step because you can't use the existing equipment on the engine. 

[Zellthetunerr]

@Michael

 

I see your point. Id say the biggest reason is social media. 1000 hp engines are everywhere. car youtubers are getting massive attention and take advantage of that by promoting the most profitable companies. Really good EFI systems are required to get those kinds of numbers and the guys that promote them make money and so do the guys at the big EFI companies (Haltech, LINK ECU, etc.) So the biggest reason is fame/attention in turn - $$$$$

 

But there are companies like speeduino that try to make it easier for the diy guy that wants to get into tuning. Not expensive, but still has enough features to compete with the big boys. You may even like soldering, like the MegaSquirt DIY kit mentioned above or the Speeduino unassembled units. They're pretty cheap considering what they can do as for features. At the end of the day, its about research. I didn't know about speedy or MegaSquirt diy before I spent hours on the forums. Many things are so much clearer to me due to the crazy amount of information I've been able to read. So the diy guys with not much money just need to do a little digging like ye boi. 

[Michael]

I can solder, and I have a basic understanding of control theory (PIDs, root-locus diagrams, pole placement, gain and phase margins, open loop vs. closed loop transfer functions, stability criteria and so on).  What I can't do is write Python code or otherwise handle software at any serious level.  I'm also terrified of making a blunder... Wrong integral gain and an otherwise stable system goes radically unstable (pole-pair goes into right half plane, due to the integral controller transfer-function block).  No idea what that means for an engine... probably nothing gentle.

 

Also, conversion from carb to EFI means a much higher pressure fuel pump (probably stand-alone electric; maybe even in-tank), injectors on rails, the right sensor suite (presumably at least an oxygen sensor in one of the header collectors), a throttle body and so on.  Lots of stuff, beyond just a circuit board in a pot-metal box.

 

Coworkers have played with Arduino controllers for basic lab-type of control tasks.  Applying that to a car sound intriguing... but complicated.  It would be far easier to start wtih a factory EFI car, perhaps?  I'm thinking of my 1991 Miata, which has the larger engine, from a 1996, but the original sensors and electronics.  It runs rich and is low on power above 4500 rpm or so, probably from intake restrictions and a very confused ECU.

[supershanesta]

I purchased the MS3 for my car and soldered it by hand. I have soldered  in the past and thought I would save some money. I would actually advise against it personally. It look hours and I had to recheck my work multiple times because it was not working properly by using their ms testing unit https://www.diyautotune.com/product/jimstim-v1-5-megasquirt-stimulator-w-wheel-unassembled/. I would get the testing unit unassembled to have fun soldering.

In terms of wiring it up, there is so much documentation here to help. I also paid someone on this forum to tune the care after I got it running. Lots of some things you will have to think about.

Was a long process but boy did it feel great to have it running.

[supershanesta]

On 4/18/2022 at 2:37 PM, Michael said:

I can solder, and I have a basic understanding of control theory (PIDs, root-locus diagrams, pole placement, gain and phase margins, open loop vs. closed loop transfer functions, stability criteria and so on).  What I can't do is write Python code or otherwise handle software at any serious level.  I'm also terrified of making a blunder... Wrong integral gain and an otherwise stable system goes radically unstable (pole-pair goes into right half plane, due to the integral controller transfer-function block).  No idea what that means for an engine... probably nothing gentle.

 

Also, conversion from carb to EFI means a much higher pressure fuel pump (probably stand-alone electric; maybe even in-tank), injectors on rails, the right sensor suite (presumably at least an oxygen sensor in one of the header collectors), a throttle body and so on.  Lots of stuff, beyond just a circuit board in a pot-metal box.

 

Coworkers have played with Arduino controllers for basic lab-type of control tasks.  Applying that to a car sound intriguing... but complicated.  It would be far easier to start wtih a factory EFI car, perhaps?  I'm thinking of my 1991 Miata, which has the larger engine, from a 1996, but the original sensors and electronics.  It runs rich and is low on power above 4500 rpm or so, probably from intake restrictions and a very confused ECU.

Writing your own EMS code would be pretty sick but insanely difficult. I program for a living and seeing what the MS3 software can do makes me so happy I don't have to think about it lol! I bet their are basic packages that exist to get you started if you really wanted.

Here is speeduino, written in C++ which is lower level but faster than python generally: https://github.com/noisymime/speeduino