Guest tt350 Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 Hey, thanks mike, and thanks for the encouraging words Tim. You guys seem to forget that Im not trying to build this car strictly for road racing, althoug I do like the tube frame chassis idea. This car will MOSTLY be on the streets, so I want people at shows and the streets to identify with something they can build (or think they can). Im guessing the tube frame will push the price way up, but i dont know. Can you give me what it would cost to build something like that. And why would I not be successful with the unibody. I was planning to put a seriuos roll cage with a cross member. I dont think that a 700-1000 (lol) hp engine can rip that apart. Anyway, right now, the car needs to be stripped to the tub (I got the car for $150, runnin). Once its down to nothin, Ill build it back up to something ing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudge Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 Depends how picky you are, tube frame from Jegs for a 240Z is about $599 I think? I saw a drag ready car on eBay for about $2500 with a Jegs tube frame. Just remember though the car made around 130 HP stock, it wasn't made for 1000HP, a local guy with an SBC 327 and a cam twisted the crap out of his body, and he had a roll bar, still after awhile the doors would not shut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 The Typhoon/Syclone AWD drivetrain will not handle the power, at least under the orginal body - all the fast folks convert to RWD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 A 240Z tub even with a 12 or more point roll cage will fatigue crack in a number of places in short order with the loads you plan on introducing into the 30+ year old chassis. ITS road racers with "only" 200 horsepower and 8 point cages deal with fatigue cracks all the time. Fundamental parts of the 240Z chassis will have to be significantly altered if you choose to use the tub. Things like the front crossmember, front frame rails, radiator core support, firewall, trans tunnel, rear bulkhead, all the strut towers, rear diff mounting structures, and rear subframe will have to reinforced or redesigned and built from scratch. It will be much cheaper and safer in the long run to build a silouette 240Z similar to the SCCA GT cars. Build a tube frame and hang a fiberglass 240Z body on it. If its done well people will still be able to identify with it and you'll have a vehicle that you can trust on a race track. To keep it street registered you can transfer the firewall, the dash, and the inner panels of the two front strut towers to the tube chassis. Remeber, when Dodge built its GTS-R Vipers they determined the stock Viper chassis couldn't handle the 800hp and 800 ft. lbs. of torque their engines were developing and that chassis design is 30 years newer then the Zs and designed from scratch to handle 500 ft. lbs. of torque. Please keep us informed on your progress. Despite some of the skepticism in this thread we all want you to succeed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tt350 Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 Thanks a lot, yall. I will keep you posted. The tube frame is sounding very apealing, but that means that I did not even have to buy the car, which is sad, since I already have. Do you need the car to build a tube frame car? It will be a real shame to just have the car sittin there while im buildin a "replica" of it. anyway, what can be used from the original car? Also, the jegs chassis sounds very cheap and doable. Can it be custom made to adapt to an AWD system (or asks Jegs to custom make it)? I should find this out myself, but since this way will be faster, might as well ask. How much will a complete "car" of fiberglass body panels cost. With a tube frame, is it possible to have power windows, locks, stereo, etc... Dont know much about these, sorry Thanks in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 You could build the tube frame to accept all of the stock Z panels, doors etc. It will mean cutting the roof off the donor and grafting it to the tube frame. Fenders, quarter panels etc, I would go 'glass. You could mount the original doors and go with the frilly stuff (electric windows etc) if you like. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tt350 Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 I jus ttook a look at Jegs website, and reaction research. This seems to me a much better (cheaper) and, faster way to build the car. I was goin to fix all the rust on the car, but guess not. Why do not many people do this tube frame thing, it seems awesome. Are there any disadvantages.... I was looking at Reaction Research's 280YZ, and I noticed that the interior still had the spare wheel well (has a fuel cell though) and a solid peice of something behind the seats. Does that come with the tube frame, or do I have to fabricate that? And, besides the body panels, what else could be used from a 240z. Door panels? Do the fiberglass panels come with the same attachement holes as the stock doors and hatch do (I dont like a tubbed interior). I guess im gettin repetitve. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tt350 Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 Oh ya, and do the tube frames come with mounts for the suspension, rearend, engine... or do I have to fab all that too? Can I swap in the entire front suspension from the real Z to the tube frame, bolt on. Geez, im gettin carried away here. But I really like the idea. Wonderin why I didnt think of this before! My boss races stock cars all the time, so I should have noticed. Anywho, Thanks a lot for the help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 Well, it's a good thing you have a thick skin---I apologize for jumping to conclusions too early, but I have seen young blood enthusiasm get no where without a good plan and MONEY. I do hope you succeed and build something that suits you. Anyhow, the tube frame can be set up anyway you choose, so you are NOT stuck with the Z car suspension. You have have your cake and eat it too, and use just about anything you want that will fit within the body panels. A solid axle would be ultimately better for drag racing and an independent rear for road racing. You could also do something like a Vette rear end like Scottie, although I do not know just how much torque they can handle. Use the search function and keep reading old posts--there are all kinds of examples of trick fabrication, but you have to find them. Davy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudge Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 Scotty broke his, with way under 1000 HP, but it was an automatic rear which is smaller than the C4 manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dp351zcar Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 I think this is what you would want to do. It was posted here a little while ago. http://webpages.charter.net/vettetek/Personal%20Web%20Page.htm Hope the link works. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 Don, thanks for posting that link---that is exactly what I was thinking about last night. Those deperados are the opnes that have gone the farthest with adapting complete Vette suspension, etc to the Z that I know of. Good pictures too. I wonder where they are now???? Davy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudge Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 http://www.fastassdatsun.com is thier new site, I dont know if they are updating the old one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZROSSA Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 Dont forget abou the guy who is making the autocross z. Full tube chassis and hand made z style suspention with super long control arms and wicked fabrication. I forgot his name.......I think he posted in the motersports section..........Will search........Have searched, Chap goes buy cmcalstr. Hopefully you can look at these photos from here. http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/cmcalstr/lst?.dir=/EMOD+Z&.src=ph&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/ If not look under the thread Emod z in the motorsports forum. Douglas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tt350 Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 Wow, those are my dream setups guys. Thanks for those pics. Does that one in the first set of pics have a complete corvette frame (looks like it)? I guess it would take a lot of work to make it fit. Sheesh. Will that setup handle serious torque? The second set of pics, im assuming that the tube frame is something like the one Jegs sells, right? I really like it, and I think on the street it would even look (sorry) better than the stock interior, just my taste, all out you know. I should think that that setup should handle all the power. I am thinking of doin the IRS rearend, and a setup similair to what the second guy had on the front. Man I cant wait to get started. I fell like with the tube frame thing, Im off with a fresh start, cuz my car is really bad shape. Ive had a couple offers, do you guys think I should sell it, or use it (maybe as a donor car for the frame). Thanks for all your boost guys But the way, does anyone live here in the central valley of california with a v8 Z, cuz I think it will be 10x more informative to actually see one than just read and click on pics. Hehe. Been doin that for almost a year now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudge Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 Custom Art Carr boxed frame, $5000 or so. Front/rear suspension are C4. WWW. FastAssDatsun.com's server was hacked over the weekend. I host was kind enough to inform us promptly and managed to get us back up. Please bear with us while we reconfigure the site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-TARD Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 First, let me apologize for my previous post about the SU-27. I did'nt realize you worked at a speed shop and had a mental image of you as some kid whos only tuning experience on cars had been on Gran Turismo 3 on PS2. The post would be pathetic, had it been an attempt at irony. (It would really be ironic if someone had posted later with links to SU-27 turbofan engines on Ebay....) As far as rear ends go, you might want to look at the independant setups in the 91 and up T-birds. Its a sub unit that removes from the car by taking out like 4 or 6 bolts. Has all the goodies attached to it: Upper and lower A-arms, rear end carrier, sway bar, etc. They use the Ford 8.8" rear. Looking through JEGS, it seems that gear sets and locking/ limited slip carriers are pretty plentiful for it. This is also the same rear end used in the new SVT Cobra and Cobra R mustangs. I dont know if any of the Mustang guys are pushing that kind of HP, but it seems to me you'd be more likely to break CV's than your rear end at 1000+ HP anyway. Hardened CV's are available for these rear ends as well, a freind of mine just got some for his Cobra. The T-bird rear setup will also bolt in to a 99 or newer mustang without any modifications, I guess using the stock mounting points for the solid axle suspension setup. Seems like it would be pretty easy to adapt it to a JEGS tube frame setup for 4 link solid axle rear. If you feel the need to stick to import parts, I would suggest using the rear out of an 87' or newer Toyota Supra. Similar setup to the T-bird, almost looks like they use the same mounting positions actually. I worked as a chassis fabricator at Shelby for a while, and while I'm not an expert in the field of chassis engineering, I feel pretty confident in my ability to make design suggestions on them. The 427 Cobras use a chassis made from 4" diameter carbon steel tubing, with lots of stiffeners and gussets to make them less flexible. These chassis still flex a considerable amount under acceleration, I think mostly because the Cobras dont have much for stiffening in the cockpit area. Since the Z has a roof, you can hide all kinds of bracing under there. The Z's unibody flexes most at the area where the frame rails connect to the firewall, and where the rear subframe attaches to the bulkhead just behind the seats. Having a tube frame with full frame rails that extend from the front all the way to the rear suspension is a must for the HP levels you are talking about. I would keep the Z you have now, use it as a template to take measurements off of while you build your frame. When you're finished with the frame, cut the entire floorboard out of the Z, along with the front clip (frame rails, strut towers, and upper horns). Then make brackets to attach it to the tube frame. You'll have to copy the geometry of the upper frame horns to a certain extent so you have a mounting place for your front fenders. If you dont know how to weld yet, I would advise you to learn because most chassis shops will charge you a lot of money for this. If you learn how to do it yourself, the only money you will have to put into it will be for material, a welding machine, and a pipe bender. I'm not sure if its legal for frame building or not, but you can make pretty accurate hot bends in pipe by filling it with tightly packed sand and plugging the ends, then heating with an oxyacetalene torch to dull red where you want to bend it. (Its a little more involved than that, but its real easy to learn) Some of the wire feed welders made by Miller and Hobart will run off 110V power, and will still weld with enough amperage to make a tube frame. I think they run for about $500 or so. You can also get a TIG welding machine by Miller for about $800 that runs off 110V and weighs about 20 pounds. I've welded with one and was very impressed with it. However, TIG takes a long time to learn, so I would suggest getting a wire feed unit. You can get pretty good with wire feed in a few months if you try. I think using the steel body from the Z would be cool. Granted, the fiberglass body is lighter, but it wouldnt really be a Z if it had a complete glass body. Anyway, I suppose I've rambled on long enough. Hope theres no hard feelings about the SU-27 thing. (although I still think it would be really friggin cool...) Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudge Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 I dont know about the Cobra, but the T Bird lower A arms are huge, it is a fairly heavy vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 Well after going back and re-reading the poster's goals, and intended use of vehicle, I'd like to point out a few issues here... Power windows and door locks and might I assume custom audio? This does not make a 1000HP race car. Still sounds like mass confusion and to much time reading Sport Compact Car. If this is gonna be a show car with the rare track day thrown in, and a car driven on the street most of the time as originally posted, then 1000HP will not be doable. My recommendation is to go out and buy yourself a Supra TT and be done with it. Then you will have a good starting point for atleast 700HP, with all the power options you crave. Had this discussion with my oldest kid over his Honda project this weekend... Don't build a (Fill in the blank of the car you have) to be like the car you want. Buy THAT CAR and improve upon it. You will come out leaps and bounds ahead of your current plan. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman47 Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 U can soup the hell out of these, ive heard of a 1100 hp cobra with a hyped up 8.8 rear end if u need more info about it email me mesiroff@cs.com Chad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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