Tim240z Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Guys, aren't you comparing apples with watermellons? If you are going to compare the tripple carb set-up (highly modified fuel delivery system, which costs $$$$), then compare it to an aftermarket EFI system with bigger TB, etc. then compare the performance. As for WOW, and Bling Bling factor: Tripple carbs win Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave240Z Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Guess I'll chime in here for whatever I'm worth. For some reason, the triple sidedraft carb setups seem to be getting a bad rap, more now than before. I believe this is largely due to four main reasons. 1) A large percentage of people buy them because of the "bling" factor, and because they were used by race cars. However, most of these people seem have little understanding of basic carburetor technology, and as such struggle to properly tune the carbs. This problem is compounded on Weber/Mikuni/Dellorto sidedrafts because of the multitude of adjustments an individual can make. 2) Aftermarket EFI and laptop computers have made it entirely possible for someone to tune their car using nothing but a computer. Furthermore, EFI components are more common these days and as such, there is a lot of aftermarket support for EFI. So this makes carbs sort of like a DoDo awaiting extinction. 3) The younger generations (I'm not that old BTW) who are now getting into cars have rarely seen a car with a carburetor, let alone one with a performance carburetor setup which leads to even more "anti carb" sentiments. 4) Many modern hi-po cars are resorting to forced induction. Although capable, carbs are not well suited for such applications thus making them even less desirable. Although I would never trade my triples for EFI on the Z, I will concede that EFI in most circumstances will offer better drivability (EFI easily adaptabs to changing conditions), superior fuel economy and a possibly even a bit more power. However, this does not mean that carbs are simply "a metered fuel leak" as some like to call it. Weber sidedrafts in particular can be quite precise at metering fuel, especially at cruise. On one long trip, I was able to average almost 24mpg with my triple setup, and that's while feeding a 3.0L Rebello with a nasty cam. Not too shabby. Of course, around town, I usually get 16mpg or less depending on driving style. Due to their independent runner design, they are also capable of some pretty good flow rates, outflowing some EFI setups even. Let alone the sound they make at WOT, which is quite intoxicating. At Laguna a few years back, there was a 240Z with a setup similar to mine running at the track. He exceeded the maximum sound levels allowed at the track so they tried taking a few disks out of the supertrapp. Next pass, he failed again. Turns out it was the sound from the carbs at WOT that was making all the noise. The sound was so amazing, just a deep throaty roar, but a bit too loud for the track. That fact certainly dropped a few jaws to say the least. Regarding whether or not they are suitable for an otherwise stock 280ZX, I'd have to say stick with the EFI. You'd have to change the fuel pump for a lower pressure unit and re-route all kinds of vacuum plumbing just for starters. I won't even get into all the potential legal/smog issues. Just too much headache and $$$ for too little gain IMO. An obligatory pic...although over 3 years old at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Plus you don't have that dumb door on the nissan afm in the way either. AFM doesn't get used with an aftermarket setup' date=' and since the stock setup + work is fairly limited, big HP guys are not going to use it, so no AFM. [/quote'] I believe the original question was concerning stock EFI, and in that context, triples would offer more power potential, especially if you add a header, compression and cam. Also, big HP guys will likely use forced induction. But I know for a fact that Clark at JWT has/had a 240 with a built NA 3.0liter that was making 300 hp on the dyno, and it had triples. Lets see someone do that with a standard nissan EFI. Perhaps converting to a Z31 set-up would work in that regard, it would stand a better chance then 280ZX injection. I don't think I ever said triples would be better then aftermarket efi, but why would someone spend a bunch of money to go stand alone, and then stay NA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudge Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Also, big HP guys will likely use forced induction. But I know for a fact that Clark at JWT has/had a 240 with a built NA 3.0liter that was making 300 hp on the dyno, and it had triples. Lets see someone do that with a standard nissan EFI. I would not imagine anyone trying to do that on an NA computer/setup with EFI, after all your talking a highly modded car to make that much power NA, and this means reprograming. I dont think its fair to even attempt to compare stock EFI NA or Turbo to tripples, correct me if I'm wrong but tripples are insanely expensive IMO, with setups going for ~$900+ I wont even consider it. For a street car I will stick to EFI. If I'm going to build a car for the end of the world, then I will build one carbureted, if I could even find a way to keep it running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudge Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Next question is, what are your opinions on EFI vs. Carbs. Is there any benifit in doing this swap other than the aww effect when I raise the hood? Some tunability in the EFI stock setup but not much compared to rejetting a carb. If you dont know much about carbs I wouldn't recommend it to someone, unless your willing to invest the time and money to get them running right, as well as study time. Expect your going to have to buy a variety of jettings, especially if you decide to change the cars setup. If the car is going to remain stock LEAVE IT ALONE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Also' date=' big HP guys will likely use forced induction. But I know for a fact that Clark at JWT has/had a 240 with a built NA 3.0liter that was making 300 hp on the dyno, and it had triples. Lets see someone do that with a standard nissan EFI. [/quote'] I would not imagine anyone trying to do that on an NA computer/setup with EFI, after all your talking a highly modded car to make that much power NA, and this means reprograming. I dont think its fair to even attempt to compare stock EFI NA or Turbo to tripples, correct me if I'm wrong but tripples are insanely expensive IMO, with setups going for ~$900+ I wont even consider it. For a street car I will stick to EFI. If I'm going to build a car for the end of the world, then I will build one carbureted, if I could even find a way to keep it running. Triples are about 1500 bucks new. If you go aftermarket with something decent, you have injectors, the computer, and any machine work required (ie tec II or III) and the installation and programing. Triples are easy to install, and are not bad to dial in. They are infinitely adjustable. While I don't want to start a flame war or anything, you have never fooled with triples, I have. I have a basis for saying what I am saying, and in the same context, I am answering the persons question. The fairness of the comparison is not what the guy asked, he asked if there was a benefit other then the aww factor. The answer is yes, the triples will make more power due to the greater airflow pontential. If he makes mod's, then the difference will be even more substantial. Now could someone get the same or better performance out of TWM sidedraft TB's with FI and an aftermarket computer? Certainly, and if you think sidedrafts are expensive, the TWM route would be worse. Oh and my webbers idled day in and day out, in bumper to bumper traffic. Hot days and cold. Never needed a choke either. Keeping them running is not a problem. If you jet them properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 The answer is yes, the triples will make more power due to the greater airflow pontential. If he makes mod's, then the difference will be even more substantial. That is a good point that upgrades to the triples are minor to accomodate motor mods. But for a stock engine, triples are overkill, and certainly more expensive than a factory EFI. But the original post said nothing about motors except it's a 280 FI conversion. I will never dis the triple setup - it is so cool looking and sounding - it's part of my Z inspiration! Too bad I jumped into turbos, bypassing the whole carb thing. I truly suck at carbs - I can't even repair a lawn mower carb - bought a new lawnmower instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave240Z Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Undoubtedly, installing triples on an otherwise stock setup is not going to gain much, if anything. For triples to be of their maximum value, aggressive cam and ignition timing are essential in conjunction with a decent compression ratio. I agree that comparing a modified engine with triples to a stock engine with factory EFI is a not a fair comparison. However, comparing a triple setup on a modified engine to a similarly modified engine with aftermarket EFI would be. John C. has a very good aftermarket EFI setup on his 3.0L and puts out over 300hp. I've also seen a highly modified Rebello 3.0L with triple 45s hit close to 290hp. That same engine put out 270hp on modified SUs, so it's safe to say the triples do flow quite a bit. Granted, their engine specs are probably slightly different, but nonetheless the triples are quite capable of producing decent hp. I'd bet that John C's EFI setup gives him a bit more area under the curve, but that doesn't make triples total junk. Regarding their use on a daily basis, I can attest with my own personal experience that they are perfectly fine for daily use once you have them setup properly. Contrary to popular misconception, they do not require constant tweaking to stay consistent either. Of course, if you're driving from sea level to 10,000ft and then back down into a desert, you may have to make some adjustments but for driving around in the same basic environment, they don't require much if anything regarding adjustments. A good linkage is essential to this though. As I somewhat eluded to previously, I believe that many of the people who seem to think triples are overly complicated and tempermental have never actually ridden or driven in a car that had them setup properly. My car is undergoing a custom rattle can paintjob at the moment, and needs new rear tires, but I will gladly volunteer to give anyone who wants to ride in a triple carb'd Z a ride once it's done. I helped a good friend of mine recently tune their triples. The carbs were used previously on a Triumph TR6 and the guy just bolted them on the Z and then complained that they didn't run right and we're essentially "crap". Well Duh! After some discussion, he decided to give me a shot at getting them setup correctly. A few jets and screwdriver turns later, his car ran much better. So much better in fact, that this guy is now a triple "advocate" rather than a triple "hater". I'm no carb expert by any means, but I have been around weber carbs for quite some time from my early air-cooled VW and Porsche days to my Datsun, so I can at least get them to run decent. Tuning for max hp and fuel ratios, however is a bit out of my league and requires more special equipment. Yes, triples can be expensive, but they are much less expensive than a custom EFI setup, or even some modified stock EFI systems. What's a big-bore throttle body or AFM go for these days? Couple hundred $$ each? Yeah, you can buy those used for much cheaper, but you can buy triples used for cheap too. When compared to a complete aftermarket EFI system including ITBs and all the other necesssary EFI bits, triples can be magnitudes cheaper. As always, cost is a bit relative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudge Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Yes, triples can be expensive, but they are much less expensive than a custom EFI setup, or even some modified stock EFI systems. Cheaper than some, not all. I'll be sure to document my costs of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest crawfoth Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 I definetly appreciate everyones replies on the subject. I noticed the comments on my vague description of my setup and plans, and I appoligize for that. Currently the only mods that I have done are headers and a 2.5" exhaust with a hi flow cat and muffler. I would have more mods done, but I had to put everything on hold to do this whole war thing. When I get the chance again, I plan on adding a mild cam and a msd setup. As far as the cam is concerned, this car is a daily driver with the majority of it being done in the city. Therefore I think I would be better off to get a cam with more gains at lower rpm's. When it comes to increasing my compression, that is still undecided. I am not sure what I want to do (or can do for that matter) to boost it without doing an incredible amount of work to internals or an expensive port and polish job on my heads. From the sounds of it, I think that I might go with the webers. I know that I will definetly have to study up to get everything set up and tuned. I will probably be calling on help with that matter when I do the swap. Thanks for the advice, and more opinions are definetly welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slownrusty Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Personally with the kinds of technological breakthroughs in digital fuel injection I would rather go with and stick EFI. For ultimate bling factor and hp - individual throttle bodies controlled by a stand alone engine management system although you will spend a pretty penny for this setup. Triple sidedrafts were and still are cool - but for an engine that is tuned to its highest degree EFI is hard to beat. Especially if you consider triples will be sensitive to atmospheric changes, altitude changes, weather and temperature fluctations as well. The sound of triples barking at wide open throttle is pretty sweet though. If you do go with triples you will only truly benefit from them by a raise in compression, a serious cam and a well designed headerexhaust system. A friend of mine threw out all his EFI in '80 280ZX and converted to triple PH44 Mikunis (which I prefer any day over DCOE Webers!). He had the following done as well: 1) Compression up'ed to around 10:1 (safe for pump huigh octane gas) 2) Nismo headers with 3.0" exhaust 3) Crane Cam (can't remember spec) - but quite lumpy 4) Crane PS91 coil and ignition 5) Port and polished head The car was probably putting down around 220hp we reckon and it was a very clean and neat conversion. This car was faster than a '87 Z31 Turbo running slightly higher boost by about 2cars in the 14 (approx). Here are some pics of the car and yes it is one of the most beautiful 280ZXs ever! Hope that helps. Pictured with my DR30 Skyline powered Datsun pickup. Enjoy! Warming up the tires before a massive burnout - any yes the car spun those 245s with no problem! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudge Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 If you want to gain more power on the low end, that generally means less duration. Since I assume you aren't going to tow any boats, just stick to a 10-20º increase in duration and you should be happy, the stuff that goes lump lump though, may not be what your looking for. With a 3.90 though I could have had a very lumpy cam and it still would have been driveable, first gear was worthless as it was, and that would really help get you off the line without bogging it down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest eric-z Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 slownrusty, that is a beautiful ZX! eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 That ZX is sweet, and Mikuni's are better then webers, and very precise. Since you have a header and exhaust, a cam would be a good booster for power and the triples will complement that nicely. You can go smaller on the choke size if you would like, say in the 32mm range, and have nice low end flow and power, without killing off the top. I routinely ran 33mm chokes and found them nice whether they were on 2.4 or 2.8. There is a cam motorsports offers that is .480 lift and about 274 duration. I think the powerband is 2k to 6k or something. That is a very sweet cam, and should do nicely for your application. Raising the compression would really wake it up, and that cam should turn to almost 7k. You would not need to fortify your engine, or port the head. Just remember, swapping the chokes out in triples will have a dramatic effect on your power. Small chokes, ie 28mm ones will give the car a lot of bottom end, big ones say 36mm ones will soften the bottom end but top end will be stronger. Thats why I think shooting for something in the middle would be better. Jetting should be easy, even via the board or a pm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zline Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Bling factor and tuning power....TWM individual throttles with TWM fuel rail and a standalone... thats what i want to run on my n/a high comp 3.1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruez Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 To add to my comments.... I believe a custom FI system would outperform a triple carbed setup for these reasons.... 1. Fuel management system can be setup to allow to run higher compressions than a carbed setup since it has a precise metering for the entire RPM range. (also the FI system also includes an ignition system, for detonation) 2. Any given engine is only going to take so much air, anything beyond that amount of flow is simply wasted. Sure a triple carb setup may flow more....but there is only so much air going to go in unless forced. A triple carbed setup does look nice..... but it also has more maintenace involved also...Although a FI system looks very nice also... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2adz Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 The Bosche L-Jetronic in good condition runs flawlessly. I have not had any problems with my '76 280 and it's fuel injection. If you currently have F.I. that is functioning ok then I wouldn't swap. TMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 I was away from this thread for a while, I'm back now. Personally I prefer a triple carb setup (Mikuni or Solex) over any kind of fuel injection for the sound, looks, and performance. Next to that I like the individual throttle bodies sold by TWM, again for sound, looks, and performance. I was going with the TWM option until Jim Thompson at Sunbelt talked me out of it. From the development work he has done on the Mazda Protege' and Nissan QR25 motors run in SCCA World Challenge Touring (over 130hp per liter NA with restrictors) he feels a single throttle body with a tuned plenum is worth seconds per lap over individual throttle bodies. Its all about the area under the torque and horsepower curves when it comes to going fast around a racetrack. FYI... my 305hp 3.0L breathes through a single 65mm TWM 2805 throttle body. Its all about velocity, not ultimate flow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 go to http://www.efihardware.com and check out their throttle bodies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zline Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 TWM makes one of if not the best throttle body and EFI system parts around -- why settle for a copy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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