handling capabilities of a 240z?

[Guest Anonymous]

I want a fast car with great handling. I'm kind of deciding between a 70-73 240z with an lt1 or ls6 and a 98+ camaro z28.

Each one has advantages and disadvantages.

 

I would say the Camaro's good points are:

Camaro is basically a completed car, already has ls1 and t-56 so mainly just suspension mods, hotcam + boltons

I hear they can be modified to do over 1g on a skidpad

 

Bad points:

I don't know about overall but initial costs are definitely more 15k +

Car is kind of heavy 3,400 lbs or so (maybe not such a big deal)

higher insurance

 

240Z's good points:

very light, probably around 2,700 lbs with ls1 + t-56

near 50/50 weight has to be good for handling

pre 73 car, no emmisions to worry about (probably no biggie but it's nice)

Possibly cheaper project overall than camaro (don't know yet)

cheaper insurance

 

Bad points:

Gonna take a lot of work to complete (few years probably)

It is an old car with old suspension design

Well, I've been reading the forums a lot but I still have much to learn so that's all I'm going to say about it now.

 

So basically I'm trying to find out from the experts what can be done with the 240z as far as handling goes. I know it's gonna be insanely fast with an lt1, ls1 or ls6 in there at only 2,700 lbs.

 

Of course the car is an old design but how much does that limit it's capabilities? Can it be modified within a reasonable budget to do over 1g on a skidpad and 70mph in a slalom?

 

If I got one and put bodykit flares on it so that I could fit some big wheels that would have to help a lot, right? Something like 17x10s all around. Or even bigger if I can without it looking silly (don't want my wheels sticking out the side).

 

Am I being completely unrealistic here? Help me out!

 

And if anyone wants to flame me, go ahead. Just try to add some useful information while you're at it. Thanks.

[maichor]

Get both! Drive the Z28 around until you wreck it, take the motor and trans and stick it in your Z!

 

How is that for some bad advice?

[Jwink25]

I pretty sure the 240Z will weight less than your 2700 lb guess. Stock, I believe they are around 2200 pounds. Haven't weighted my car yet.

 

There are several upgrades out there to help the handling of the older Z car. ZF Racing makes some. Not sure on the cost.

 

I would go the Z car route...but that is just my opinion. Good luck!

 

Jason

[j260z]

i'd say go with the z. sure it's an old design but it's also a good design. with a couple thousand in upgrades, and some elbow grease, it would handle just about anything you could throw at it. with coilovers you could run 17X8's and 17X9's if you wanted check out http://www.hybridz.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21113 and

the other reason is that anyone can buy a camaro and tweek it, but where is the fun in that!! at least with a z you'll stand out!

[johnc]

I pretty sure the 240Z will weight less than your 2700 lb guess.

 

I think there are very few (if any) V8 Z conversions under 2,700 lbs. Most folks forget about the additional weight of the modified driveline, bigger radiator, bigger brakes, etc. when figuring out how much their conversion will weigh. It can be done but a builder will have to focus on weight while putting the car together.

 

There are also very few (if any) V8 conversion 240Zs that can handle as well as most any of the ITS 240Zs racing across the country each weekend. A lot of development has been put into the 2,430 lb (with driver) platform that an additional 500 lbs tends to screw up.

 

I'm not saying it can't be done but I haven't heard of anyone who's done it yet. Most builders fall into the "horsepower/torque" trap and lose focus (and money and time) on the handling and braking side.

 

BTW... if anyone does build a good handling V8 240Z conversion, I can get an ITS 240Z and my 3.0L 240 to run as comparisons on most any West Coast track. Just let me know.

[Jwink25]

How much heavier is the Chevy V8? A Ford 302 with an alu. intake is 50 lbs. lighter than the stock L6. Even lighter if you went with aftermarket heads. Would the rest of the drivetrain weight add 500 lbs? Hmmmm... I guess its possible. A little here, a little there... 2700 still seems kinda high. But, I have not done a V8 swap. Maybe some guys that have can give us their weights.

[Jwink25]

"My 70 240 came in at 2485 with the small block chevy and 700r4. The motor has aluminum heads/intake/pulleys so that helps. Since then I have added a cage so I am sure it went up a bit."

 

I played with the search and found this. A Chevy V8 Z car can be done for under 2700 lbs. But there are others that weight more. I guess it just depends if you want the extras like A/C and stuff.

[Pop N Wood]

I pretty sure the 240Z will weight less than your 2700 lb guess.

 

I think there are very few (if any) V8 Z conversions under 2,700 lbs.

 

Looks like someone is trolling.

 

Ron Tyler's LT1 Z with bigger diff, bigger brakes, way bigger trans and buffed up suspension comes in at 2400#

 

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~rontyler/lt1specs.html

 

So my guess is most V8Z's will be well under 2700#. I have heard very few people complain of 500# weight gains.

 

As for L6 vs. V8 track times, well as Mark Twain said it is a difference in opinion that makes a horse race.

[Mudge]

I have a 94 Z28 so I dont have an LS1, but I did make 411/385 at the wheels with my LT1. I have Koni DAs, 600# front springs and 140-160# rears, subframes, STB, Yoko AVS rubber. My car is much lower than your average ProKit car, even a 1" lip on the street is scary at anything over 10 MPH.

 

With that, my car is pretty darn grippy, for a Camaro. However, if you want balls to the wall handling the 240Z while needing SOME work, on a modest budget already outperforms my Z28 in corners with who even knows what kind of struts on there. I cut 1.5 coils off the front springs and the rear are 2+2 with unknown coils cut, figure about the same. So with just those two things (no rear sway bar even), the car is extremely predictable and sticks like NOBODIES business. I have 195/60 on 15x7" wheels, and they are 300 treadwear, nowhere as sticky as my AVS Intermediates on the Z28.

 

When I ran the car at Sears in my own little group, the only car I saw that was faster than me was a 2470 pound 460 HP Cobra replicar with 17x9"/17x11" rubber, no way I could keep up with that with 130 HP.

 

One thing that would greatly help the Camaro out is 17x11" wheels all the way around with 315 Victoracers for track days only. For genuine ZR1 wheels + rubber your already looking at more than what my 240Z cost. My 240Z was $1500 with a straight body and in overall pretty good shape, ran it at the track with basic fluid swap and my cut springs. My 195 tires are about equivalent to a 295 on the Camaro, so for less money the 240Z IMO is a better road car, well WAY less money that is. Once you start going V8 conversion, full cage, coil overs, bigger rubber and so on it will get pricey sure, but will still outhandle a Z28 with even MORE money dumped into it, on top of its more expensive buy in price ($10k+).

 

I like the Camaro, its roomier than the 240 and overall is a pretty nice car to drive, I'm daily driving mine currently. I love the torque over a puny 2.4L NA, and it has pretty good handling, but when I corner hard I know that I could really run circles around myself with the 240Z, it is so easy to drive and so dead on neutral, and sticks even with my "crappy" 300 treadwear rubber.

 

Plan is to get some 16x8" or 17x8" Centerlines with race bubber for track days, until I can decide/afford to go balls to the wall with custom wheels and fat flares.

 

I got bored of the Camaro on the track, and a bit tired of working on the car in general (tight engine compartment). When I stepped into a 2136 pound car as my daily driver for nearly a year, it changed my viewpoints drastically on what the ultimate drivers machine would be. Go light and go big on the rubber if possible, and the Camaro wasn't going to do it.

 

If I had to stay American it would be a first gen Camaro (no smog, better looking, lighter, sexier?), otherwise the 240Z still gets a big fat thumbs up IMO, its an experience that has to be lived. Once you see and feel first hand, you can either lie to yourself about the Z28s potential, or you string together some foul language in the middle of your cornering, its an adrennalin rush for awhile. I was just so amazed at how much I could push the car and it was asking for MORE MORE, I was afraid to push it because I was going so much faster in corners!

 

Anyhow, thats my experience, I could talk about it all day, get a ride with someone if you can, even if the damn thing is bone stock.

[johnc]

Looks like someone is trolling.

 

Not at all. I'm just skeptical of most weight claims.

 

Having corner weighed a lot of vehicles I find most owners are surprised how much their car actually weighs. Many have come in saying, "Oh, my car wieghs x,xxx because that's the manufacturer's curb weight plus I've added lighter pulleys, light flywheel, etc." Then we scale the car and see it actually weights about 250 lbs heavier then the manufacturer's listed "curb weight".

 

So let's look at a comparison between Ron's V8 conversion and my 240Z back when it was a BSP car:

 

My 240, back when it was an autocross BSP car, weighed from 2,230 to 2,275 lbs with full tank of fuel depending on the scales it was weighed on. There were some weight savings effort done on the car but SP rules require a full interior, HVAC, etc. and my car has a roll bar.

 

From Ron's web site: "Dry weight 2420 lbs." He paid attention to weight when building the car as evidenced by the fuel cell and the 15" Panasports. I'm also assuming his weight is from scaling the since he also lists a weight distribution of 49/51.

 

Ron's car (without fluids) weighs from 145 to 190 lbs more then my car used to weigh. We can probably add an additional 77 lbs to Ron's weights for a full (9 gallon) tank of fuel, coolant, and oil. So now, his V8 conversion (the lightest I've ever heard of) is from 222 to 267 lbs heavier "wet" then my L6 240Z.

 

So far then, the lightest V8 Z conversion I've heard of is still about 250 lbs heavier then a comparable L6 240Z. 'Course, if the BSP rules allowed a change to a 9 gallon fuel cell, aluminum radiator, and aluminum driveshaft then the weight difference would be greater still - close to 300 lbs.

[Oltmann]

http://www.zhome.com/rnt/FordPower/Weights.html

 

Terry Oxandale's car is pretty light; I don't know what you mean by "comparable L6" though. His car is pretty incomparable to any other.

[Pop N Wood]

From reading Ron's write up, I think the weight of his car is more the norm than the exception. Other than the fuel cell, he really hasn't done much to concentrate on weight savings. The aluminum drive shaft he credits with reducing drive line vibration. His brakes are JY type swap items, not Willwood superlights. Of course the LT1 has alumum heads and intake, but that massive T56 more than makes up for that weight savings. Run an LT1 with an automatic, or better yet a Ford/T5 or LS1 engine and the car's weight will be less yet.

 

BTW, when I use to drive my dead stock 240 to the recycle center, I seem to remember weights more on the high side of 2300#. Maybe you cut more weight from your car than you think?

[260DET]

The main basic problem with a 240 is that it is relatively narrow for handling purposes, and for driver elbow room. Having said that they have been highly developed and therefore can handle very well, particularly where you can flare the guards and get some wide tyres sticking out there.

 

The driver elbow room however remains a problem if you are at all on the large side. Removing the interior door arm rest/handle helps, a bit.

[Mikelly]

John, I like you, respect you, but you've mentioned this twice now and I have to respectfully object...

 

I weighed my last 383 stroker package and the motor with aluminum heads, intake, waterpump, and smaller (Camaro) starter weighed 38# more than my L28 motor did. I don't know ANYONE who wouldn't want to upgrade the brakes on ANY of the road or track going Zs out there. So you can't really make that claim. The only area where you will gain significant weight on a V8 conversion is in the transmission. A stock 5 speed Nissan trans probably doesn't weigh 80#s. If you go with a T56 it will cost you BIG in the weight department. They weigh in excess of 120# easily. You will also pick up extra weight if you go dual exhaust over single.

 

Jamie Taylor owns a Camaro and a Zcar both. Talk to him about how his Camaro handles poorly. He siad it floats even with the suspension mods he has to it. You FEEL all the weight of that Camaro. You won't feel the weight of a V8 Zcar.

 

As for there being no V8Zs under 2700#... My car weighed 2780# with 15 Gallons of gas, 8 quarts of oil (Using an accusump), 2.5 gallons of water, and my 180# ass in it. That was with HEAVY Toyota four piston calipers up front, Dual 2.5 inch exhaust, a full cage, and some additional body work like flared and a rear Porsche style wing.

 

You ABSOLUTELY can build a 2500# V8 Zcar. When I'm done with my two exisitng projects I'll take the digital camera over to the scales with me, and have a witness or two just to keep me honest, and I'll publish those weights... One of a stripped out 21 point caged V8 Race Z, and one of a street V8Z WITH power windows, door locks and a minimal 6 point cage/ interior.

 

Mike

[johnc]

I never said it couldn't be done, I just said I had not seen or heard of one before. I have no doubt that a V8 Z can be built as light as an L6 Z and can be made to handle as well. I just have not seen anyone do it yet.

 

Remember, I'm a racer. Prove it to me on a racetrack. Someone, somewhere build a road racing V8 Z. I know it can be built fast and I know it can be built to handle great. But, right now, its a mythical creature that most any 200 hp, 175 ft lb, 2,430 lb (with driver) ITS 240Z can beat.

 

How many times do I have to pickup and throw down this gauntlet...? 8)

[Jwink25]

Send me the money and I'll do it...

[TimZ]

On the 'old suspension design' aspect, while the Camaro does have an SLA front suspension, it still has a solid rear axle. Even with the four link, I doubt that it is superior to Chapman struts for handling purposes.

 

One other thing to consider - the BMW 5 series still uses pretty much exactly the same suspension configuration as the Z. I seriously doubt that the Camaro handles better than the 5 series, or that anyone uses this as an argument to decide between the 5 series and a Camaro . It's all in the development.

[Pop N Wood]

I never said it couldn't be done' date=' I just said I had not seen or heard of one before. I have no doubt that a V8 Z can be built as light as an L6 Z and can be made to handle as well. I just have not seen anyone do it yet.

 

Remember, I'm a racer. Prove it to me on a racetrack. Someone, somewhere build a road racing V8 Z. I know it can be built fast and I know it can be built to handle great. But, right now, its a mythical creature that most any 200 hp, 175 ft lb, 2,430 lb (with driver) ITS 240Z can beat.

 

How many times do I have to pickup and throw down this gauntlet...? 8)[/quote']

 

Here, fishy fishy fishy!

[Z-Dreamer]

Hm... well I've got a 406 Aluminum Rodeck/Brodix motor. The block alone is about a 100lbs. lighter than a iron sbc. Combine it with a competition T-5 from G-Force, then it could be used in a road race prepared 240Z. That should weigh-in as lite if not lighter than a L6 240. Any takers? Mikelly?

 

Mark

[ZROSSA]

I was watching the local sunday afternoon motorsports program yesterday. They has highlights of a 6 hour endurance race that was run a few months ago. Second on the grid was a v8z(350 chevy), first was a skyline gtr. Behind was a bit of everything from gt3 porches to toyota corollas. After the start the gtr took the lead with the z following. The only place the gtr had it on the z was out of the hairpin. The z would make it up down the back straight so they were pretty much neck and neck untill the z killed its trans. Both these cars left the porche cup cars for dead. I was pretty impressed. Any Idea how your Z would run against a porche cup car John.

 

Cheers

 

Douglas