Moderators and Administrators on a short fuse

[jeromio]

Hey, um, John? If you look, there next to your post, right under your name, it says "Administrator".

 

So, unless there's some freaky wierd broken-ness with the forum software, I'm thinking you can wack as many moles as you wanna.

 

I must be a bit sadistic too, cuz I too would enjoy that. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a "Your post is Stupid" board to move posts to. If nothing else, bored masochists might enjoy reading thru such a board to mock particularly egregarious infractions against common sense.

 

In keeping with the sadism, I've been poking around, looking for examples of this stuff Pete and Mike are referring to and I can't find anything. Did it all get deleted? The closest I came to an argument was the recent discussion about the JSK brake brackets. I mean, true the RB forum is filled with pretty useless posts, but I just could not find any posts in any boards with any kind of bashing in them?

[pparaska]

John, the Admin forum doesn't show up for you at the bottom of the forum index page when you're logged in? It should.

 

Yes, there probably is a bit of V8 bigotry. I don't like that. But if someone comes at me with "I can build a 300 hp NA L6" and they want to drive it on the street, I'm going to let them know that a Turbo L6 or other engine like a V8 is going to be alot more user friendly and reliable. But for your uses, I can't understand why you'd need to defend your choice - you class of racing allows only the L6!

 

As for wielding a heavy hammer, the issue is I'd rather not have to or see others have to. This was once a cheery home for V8 swap people - and with the recent influx of new blood, it's becoming less so. There's a decent amount of "Nissan or nothing" undertone - I'm not imagining it. And yes, sometimes it gets editted out or deleted - as it should.

[wigenOut-S30]

I would hate to see the L6 forum removed.

 

Zcar.com or any other Z site I've visited will never provide the technical resources or the caliber of members available here.

 

Please reconsider.

 

I agree with Rick. I have been apart this this site for some time know.I dont post too much but do read here everyday weather it be in the archives or just daily posts.I feel like it is my home . I have met and made friends from alot who post here.(SEZM1,SEZM2) I have a L6-3.0ltr stroker motor that I will be turboing as soon as I can get some down time. I have no bias to what goes in to power the Z. Heck I love seing High HP performace Z cars no matter what is in them. I just hope not to be put on the chopping block cause I dont have a GM or domestic motor. I consider having parts of a 240sx ,240z , 280z , 280zxT- to be a hybrid. I agree to consolidating some of the sections(and getting rid of the Rif Raf) but would hate to not be allowed to ask questions and be around other people who are serious about tuning and power that goes into the Z car. As for myself I plan on staying around as long as I can. On a final Note. I think the moderators have a very tough job and are doing a great job. I Love this site and the very diverse Knowlege that is on here.For that I Thank you.

[johnc]

I had access to the Admin forum when we were beta testing the site. At some point (I don't know when) the Admin forum vanished from my Forum Index. I also don't get any of the admin buttons/controls in any of the forums.

 

Its not a big deal to me but if you guys need help moderating I'll be glad to own a couple topics. Also, I wouldn't be as heavy handed as I say. Polite the first time and then grumpier later.

[pparaska]

John, I just went in and found a setting for you that wasn't correct - you now should have full Admin permissions. I didn't realize until today that you were having that problem. Let's blame it on Dan .

 

BTW, as evidence of my assertion that non-Nissan posts are made, I started looking around. I found some very cleverly disquised all-Nissan posts, but this one is more outward and very recent:

 

http://www.hybridz.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18625

 

Read the last couple of lines of the first post.

"Keeping everything Nissan while you're at it."

 

Jim Powers then calls him out very nicely with his response.

[Afshin]

There are 2 components in these posts, the problem (easier to identify and agree on)and the solution (no perfect one, and difficult as usual)

The problem relates to the preservation of this site as a nice medium for the exchange of interesting ideas, experiences and fun relating to making real modifications, all while preserving a sense of community. As such the influx of members who do not fit “the mold” or who make noise as opposed to contributions is appropriately being targeted. From my interpretations of others post, I feel that most would agree and be supportive of this endeavor.

However, the challenge is delineating who “those” folks are, and most difficult and crucial is how to deal with the issue. I believe that the manner in which we deal with distress is what best defines us. We understand that this forum was born out of the V8 conversions however, as you well know, it is much more than that. Within it lays the spirit of craftsmanship, customization and performance. This, at least, is what I felt after visiting this site and is why it represents the only online forum of any kind that I have ever joined.

The reorganization/consolidation of the many forums makes sense, and it’s only fair that the administrators’ perspective on how to do it should reflect their perspective on what best represents the overall goal of this site.

What needs to be worded and carried out carefully is classification of a group of diverse people based on a common feature that does not represent them fairly, in other words L6r’s, and so on. It’s not the L6 that’s a problem, it’s someone who thinks that it is better or someone who has no interest in true/significant performance modifications as you stated yourself. Now while this sound mostly like semantics, it does set the undertone, comments such as “people with L6’s can go elsewhere” will be unduly offensive to many contributing members of HybridZ, whereas saying Nissan purists or people who create noise as opposed to contribute should be banned, whacked in the head.. (which you have now made clear is your purpose) and so on is highly appreciated.

In the end, you guys are responsible for a great site and I loudly applaud your efforts to keep it special as opposed to let it degrade, even if some of us take offense during the process or disagree with certain aspects of your solutions.

[johnc]

Thanks Pete.

 

Regarding the "all Nissan"post example...

 

IMHO... The goal of keeping your Hybrid all Nissan does not violate the intent of HybridZ. Brad's Q45 Z is a good example of something we all agree fits the mold here. The problem is when a builder with an "all Nissan" goal feels that others should share the same goal and expresses those feelings on this site.

 

This is just another derivation of "Marque Bigotry" and we've all seen that on the back windows of pickup trucks where that stupid kid is peeing on the logo of some other brand. Its just as asinine and stupid when typed on a message board.

 

In March when I had my 240Z on a chassis dyno there was a team from SLP there testing a highly modified, supercharged Pontiac Grand Prix GTP. I tow my 240Z behind a Ford F350 pickup and its was parked next to the GTP as the Pontiac was rolled off the dyno.

 

I commented to the Pontiac owner how nice his car looked and sounded. His reply to me was that he was embarassed to have his beautiful car next to a POS Ford towing a rice burner. I told him that he could go do something physically impossible with himself and then proceeeded to put down 50 more horsepower on my first pull then his SLP Pontiac did after three hours of tuning.

 

Marque bigotry is just stupid.

[Tim240z]

I told him that he could go do something physically impossible with himself and then proceeeded to put down 50 more horsepower on my first pull then his SLP Pontiac did after three hours of tuning.

 

 

Well....as you know, a picture is worth a 1000 words.....I bet that shut his pompous @ss up!!! Good on ya John!!

 

Tim

[Sparky]

Well said JohnC and Afshin, I couldn’t have said it better myself, but I am going to try

 

I joined this site when I first considered my turbo conversion, and I was a member of Zcar.com/Zdriver long before that. While there is good information there, you have to fight the idiots or "experts" to get to it. This leads to false information, and heated internet slap fights. That forum fell apart about five months before I joined here.

 

When I first came here I didn’t post for a long time, I would read through each and every forum soaking up as much info as I could. And if I didn’t find the info i was looking for...or if it wasn’t clear to me, then I would post. I visit HybridZ.org every single day. This is my start page, and I love to read as many posts as possible, whether its V8, RB or L6. The way I have always viewed this site, is that it was for people that LOVE the Z car, as long as its well engineered and not factory stock, its a HybridZ. What I feel is needed, is not removal of forums or even heavy moderation, but the combination of some forums, ALL of the with a clear and detailed FAQ section at the very top. I would combine the forums like this:

 

Chevy V8

Ford V8

Other V8

Alternative 6 cylinder

other power plants (4 bangers, rotary, electric V12 etc)

Miscellaneous Tech

High Tech Board

Brakes, Wheels, Suspension and Chassis

Drive train

Paint and Body

Ignition

Turbo / Supercharger

Exhaust

EFI / Fuel Injection

Carburetors

Body Kit/Kit Car

 

 

by combining the l6,rb, and alt 6 boards, I think you can clear out a bunch of riff-raff and you’ll see a big drop in lamers with stupid questions. if you give them a place to go, and make it real easy for them, they will post and post and post.

 

Keep all the general forums, and lose all the club forums. Also, I noticed that as soon as the forum software change over happened, all the lamers started to show up. (again this goes with making it easy for them) also, you no longer see the mission statement every time you visit the main page. this might have something to do with it.

 

But as I said before, A lot of bigger site have a great FAQ section that really helps out the new people....so the DONT have to ask a "dumb" question. not only would it make the newbie’s feel more welcome, but it would educate them as well.

 

There are ALOT of young to older people that are getting into the scene, whether its Z cars or camaros they have to start somewhere, we as educated experienced enthusiasts should seek out to edjucate instead of alienate. that is the key to a long and happy forum life. Better moderation with a FAQ is key!

 

Also, some "keep it Nissan" members are not bashing anyone, they are stating an opinion, nothing more. it seems that some people are very sensitive to that, and need to relax just a little. BUT, I totally agree though, that anyone that pushed his or her beliefs, be it all Nissan or all V8 should be banned or put on warning.

 

WE are ALL HybridZ'ers , WE all share a common interest of modifying Datsun/Nissan Z cars. That’s what makes this site a great place on the web. If it comes down to it, I will pay a membership fee in order to keep this site the great place it is for all!

 

 

Well, during this post I have ate my dinner, burned two CD's and talked to my LD girlfriend. Sorry if it seems a bit thrown together.

 

As Always I love this site! The only reason I know what I do, and the only reason my 240ZT runs and drives, is because of ALL members and forums on this site!

 

Keep the Z alive!

[jeromio]

I nominate Afshin for King of Grammar and WordSmithery.

 

I am posting (again) here because something just occurred to me. Not to offend anyone performing or contemplating an RB swap, but damn. I read thru that thing and it is just a magnet for retards (which, BTW Sparky, is dubbed "LD" here in the south which kinda threw me 'til I realized you must've meant LongDistance).

 

So anyway, follow my logic here. The internet is full of retards. It's actually even capable of turning ordinary, intelligent people into retards (but not me of course - I've never ever posted anything retarded on the internet ). Hybridz.org is on the internet. Retards, whether naturally born, internet enhanced or otherwise, are going to make their way here.

 

They seem to like the RB board (well, other boards too, but RB much more so). So, if you get rid of that board, they'll only disperse to the other boards - possibly L6 or whatever 6 board replaces it, possibly Misc Tech - hell, they'll just post a "How much to swap in an RB" question to the Chevy board.

 

Point is, just leave it. Maybe have Bob_H moderate it and he can just spend a few hours a day mocking people or just deleting dumb posts. Or just set the quota/purge_old flag on that board so it doesn't use up disk space and leave it alone. It can be an InternetRetard HoneyPot of sorts.

 

Oooh! Even better. Rename that board to "RB and other all Nissan swaps"! Ha!

 

And Pete and Mike can just completely avoid it and maybe move other obnoxious posts there ala my earlier idea - it'd be just a time delayed delete anyway since that board would only keep posts for 30 days or whatever. We'll all know that it's really the InternetRetard board, a wasteland for obnoxious fools, but perhaps the victims won't catch on.

[pparaska]

Regarding the "all Nissan"post example...

 

IMHO... The goal of keeping your Hybrid all Nissan does not violate the intent of HybridZ. Brad's Q45 Z is a good example of something we all agree fits the mold here. The problem is when a builder with an "all Nissan" goal feels that others should share the same goal and expresses those feelings on this site.

 

This is just another derivation of "Marque Bigotry" and we've all seen that on the back windows of pickup trucks where that stupid kid is peeing on the logo of some other brand. Its just as asinine and stupid when typed on a message board.

 

I'm a little confused by these two paragraphs. I totally agree that it's asinine to say "Ford sucks"' date=' show a graphic of someone peeing on a Chevy bowtie symbol, or to say "and I can keep it all Nissan". They are all illogical things to me - the air and fuel can not read the label on the engine, and whether some want to believe it or not, no brand or country has a corner on producing a significantly inferior selection of engines. (Heck, the next engine going in my Z has 2 parts from GM - cylinder block and oil pan, and I could have bought aftermarket versions of those too!)

 

I just fail to see how "Keeping everything Nissan while you're at it" should make any difference to anyone - the air and fuel sure don't care!

 

On top of that, Rule #1 states:

 

"1. The purpose of this site is to discuss TECHNICAL topics that pertain to the modification of the Datsun/Nissan Z cars (240Z, 260Z, 280Z, 300ZX, 350Z). No thoughtful modification that enhances performance or styling will be put down. [b']The philosophy is one of "parts is parts" - it doesn't matter what automaker originally made the parts, if you think that using those parts on your Z will add to it's performance or cosmetic appeal.[/b] But the emphasis is on FUNCTION, not the addition of graphics, wings, etc. to only make the Z LOOK like it is a high performance car. However, everyone has their own ideas of what stylish modifications look good or bad. "

 

(I added bold to emphasize the part I was referring to.)

 

Now if someone has issue with that rule, then they are at odds with me on this topci and with what I believe the general premise of Hybridz.org.

 

In March when I had my 240Z on a chassis dyno there was a team from SLP there testing a highly modified, supercharged Pontiac Grand Prix GTP. I tow my 240Z behind a Ford F350 pickup and its was parked next to the GTP as the Pontiac was rolled off the dyno.

 

I commented to the Pontiac owner how nice his car looked and sounded. His reply to me was that he was embarassed to have his beautiful car next to a POS Ford towing a rice burner. I told him that he could go do something physically impossible with himself and then proceeeded to put down 50 more horsepower on my first pull then his SLP Pontiac did after three hours of tuning.

 

Marque bigotry is just stupid.

 

That's pretty funny. SLP had to get womped by a little old ricer Z car! I hope it got rubbed in their faces!

[pparaska]

Also, some "keep it Nissan" members are not bashing anyone, they are stating an opinion, nothing more. it seems that some people are very sensitive to that, and need to relax just a little. BUT, I totally agree though, that anyone that pushed his or her beliefs, be it all Nissan or all V8 should be banned or put on warning.

 

If you mean I'm very sensitive to it, yes I am. As johnc pointed out, it's called Marque Bigotry, and it's against the Rule #1 of this site. I feel like SOMEBODY has to watch to make sure that we don't let HybridZ slip down that slippery slope, as it has begun to lately. To say "keep it Nissan" is no different than to say "anything but Nissan sucks", in my opinion. It adds nothing to the technical content of the subject.

[Sparky]

Pete,

 

I was not specifically pointing to anyone, just bringing up something.

 

And marquee bigotry should not be tolerated, but somebody saying that they would prefer to keep "their" own swaps all Nissan, and another person saying that "Ford sucks and anyone else that puts anything but a Nissan engine in a Z is a moron", are two very different things.

 

Anyhow, Unfortunately, this is what growth does. This is a popular place lately, and its best to accept the growth, but with limits. If you stifle the growth, its possible to cut out the best part of Being a member of Hybridz.org.....soaking up new info and ideas!

 

These are just my opinions, the founders of this site can do whatever they please, and they have no obligations to satisfy anyone. But seeing as how this site is home to so many different enthusiasts, but with on common goal, it would be a shame to alienate some of them. Chances are, just like the founders of this site, We all came here for a reason...the other sites just didn’t fit the bill, and were possibly alienating them as well.

 

 

G'night all!

[Guest Carrman]

Guys, I've been reading the replies to this thread with great interest. Of all the Z sites on the web, I have to say this is by far the most informative of all of them when it comes to modifying the Z. The other sites seem to specialize in "how can I fix my Z" as opposed to the "how do I make my Z faster" emphasis we have here. This is a good thing....... I am concerend though about the proposed changes, but have faith that the right thing will be done. I know and understand fully that the admin folks have had a gut full of the recent bs we have seen here, and I can see why they feel it's time to act. I just hope though that whatever actions are taken will not prevent any valuable information from being posted here that might be needed, be it RB swaps, turbos, Chevy V8's, etc. I know the roots of this site was for the V8 swap people, and I respect that, but please don't forget us "other" folk, be it the turbo people, V6 people, RB people, etc...... We need this site too!

[johnc]

Pete,

 

Everyone has different goals for the hybrid they are building. Some have an "all Nissan" goal for whatever reason (preference, rules, bigotry) and that's fine 'cuz here at HybridZ we don't "require" a member to use specific alternative parts in the development of their hybrid. When things cross the line is when a person espouses their goals as fit for others.

 

I'm a good example. My car has a Nissan L6 engine because the rules required it at the time I was building the car. That was one of the goals in building my car and I CERTAINLY don't encourage, justify, proclaim, potificate, or demand that others follow a similar path when building their hybrids - it cost me a buttload of money to 300+ hp out of an NA L6.

 

So, the fact that my car is basically "all Nissan" doesn't get me in trouble here because I'm not demanding others follow the same path. I think that's the "line of demarcation" that I have not crossed.

 

Plus its cool to beat up on Chebbies at the track...

[pparaska]

John, I certainly agree that is the prudent line of demarcation between marque bigotry and just doing what you want/need to. I just have a problem with the tone that the "all Nissan" crowd uses when they say such things - the last example is probably not the best.

 

Years ago I sat through dinner with a Z person I just met (but knew on line for some time). During the entire chat, this person kept saying, "plus, it's a Nissan part", etc. My mention of any other OE or aftermarket part was always rebuffed, even though the cost or performance was maybe superior (most of the discussion was about brakes).

 

This type of "tone" is what I object to listening to, even if the person is not trying to ram their point of view down my throat. Maybe it's because I just don't see the logic in that point of view (call me Spock) or because I don't like hearing/reading the jabs between the lines, but this annoys me. Call it my character fault, if you like. But the idea behind this site was to get away from all that.

 

Some of the people that post on HybridZ who are all-Nissan types know better than to outwardly write marque-bigotted posts and carefully craft their words. Others who either don't care or aren't familiar with some of the founders' sensitivities to this post blatant marque-bigotted or L6-bigotted or anti-American-engine stuff and feel the wrath.

 

I know that to some people reading these threads lately, I might be sounding over-sensitive to this issue, but again, many of us here invested time and energy into this site because we wanted a friendly place to talk about modding the Z without bigotted posts. (Yes the bigotry goes both ways, and I have seen the V8-only bigotry decrease due to posts about it from the management.) It used to be a very friendly place for us to hang and many of us enjoyed that. But the undertone of L6, marque and Japanese engine bigotry has increased in the last months, and I (and I believe others) have come to feel less comfortable at our own little party on the Internet.

 

Just like you didn't like the SLP guy jabbing your truck and Z car, I don't think that if I was at a HybridZ party or gathering I'd feel comfortable hearing someone say some of the half or not concealed bigotted things I've been reading. And that's also a premise of this site - that, if nothing else the originators of this site and those who share their views have a COMFORTABLE place to hang.

 

I agree that tougher and more moderation can keep this in check. But I felt it was time I aired my views on where we are heading with this site. It's become too much like the places I stay away from, and that bothers me. Hopefully these discussions will remedy that.

[ZR8ED]

I for one as a long time poster.. here and an old poster from zcar.com zdriver.com I love this site.

 

It is by far the most tolerant and inteligent site I've been privilaged to be a part of.

 

I agree with reducing some of the forums, and consolidating some.. there is no VG30ET swapper forum here, and I make out just fine.

 

grouping some of the forums together is also a good idea.. the exhaust forum, efi/carb, and some of the miscelanious forums at the bottom of the forum list (can't recall the names..sorry)

 

We still need a kind of a general forum as well. There have been some extremely emotional life events occur for many members here.. some good and some bad, and I'm am extremely proud of the fact that many members can actually speak of personal issues, and not get sandbagged by other members.. I personally have enjoyed this site, and it has helped me keep sane when my life takes a wild turn..(good or bad)

 

I feel this is one of the closest knit groups I have been a part of..and its pretty incredible, when you consider that we chat with people in multiple countries, timezones, cultures etc....

 

 

I can see the need to reduce repetition in forums, and many people post questions in inappropriate forums so they can get exposure to the maximum viewers..

 

RB's for example could go back where they were in the alternate 6 cyl forum... that can cover all 6cyl swaps no matter what the make..

 

The high tech forum is just fine for some of the off the wall ideas..thinking outside the box..outside common sense as well... its a great place for wild ideas..you'll never know if something is possible if everyone assumes "it can't be done"...for ex..who would have thought in a million years, that a 1990 toyota 4 runner caliper would work with an 84 300zx rotor, on a 1970-1978 (northamerican) Z???

 

I do agree as well as there has been a huge increase in the # of idiot posts. Pop culture has seen to this, and it is something we are going to have to live with.. how we deal with it is important...I have watched good web sites deterioriate to nothing when the idiots scare off the solid core of a site and it turn into a free for all.

 

I believe in a stern warning to newbies first offences.. as well as long time posters..I also believe in Banning people. I think a more visible warning about this is needed.. you want to post here.. be thoughtful..if not, then you may be welcome here...play nice...and so will I... No need for pissing contests. there is ALWAYS someone with a faster Z heck..a faster truck...ALWAYS. some mods are done for other reasons..just ask me sometime about mine...never judge why someone has done what they have done..hot rodders have always modded using items at hand, or readily availble to them.. sorry but there are not a lot of jspec engines/spare parts around here where I live..but maybe they are where you live..all the better for you.

 

I also believe that if you can't control yourself after a warning..you have some issues, and this site is not free speech..someone else is paying for this site..you want to stand on a soap box, get your own site!..that can be your free speech..no complaints from me!

 

This site is about all kinds of mods..heck, I've heard of people talking about electric motors for Z!, hyrdrogen, turbine power...wild aero mods, body mods to the extreme... but in a technical manner...if you want 12" wide flares, then so be it.. it may not be areodynamic, but it might look super cool...no need to cut someone up because of their mods. I know I come up with what many people might think of as rediculous, or just plain "too far".. thats cool..just don't flame me for it.

 

If you want to flame someone..keep it offline!

 

you want to flame me.. email me ZR8ED@hotmail.com

 

I never start a fight I can't win, and you can't win on the internet..EVER!!

 

Peace guys

I'll offer my assistance if needed folks to watch the forums..I come here a lot, and read from most of the forums.

Email me for any help/ideas. I'll stand up for this site.

[randy 77zt]

a long long time ago i used to goto zcar.com but got tired of reading posts from people that are better at using computors than using hand tools .i joined this site a few years back and it is the only z site i look at.i think the rb forum could go the to alternate 6 cyl forum.this will discourage the 20something year old kids that read too many import mags form posting.some times i post questions but it is just to see the results of something somebody else has tried.i always post something positve or i dont post at all.due to the amount of bytes used to maintain this website things will probably have to change.i hope the turbo forum is not dropped.some people seem to think that forum is turbo l28 only.not so.its for turbo anything and i read all posts that i am interested in .i dont read that many posts-i skip alot because i have been there and done that.maybe the mods should make a stupid post forum and move the stupid posts there.for open season slamming.

[Ferd/289]

ditto..., good premise, good rules, good ease of use, draws good techs and enthusiats. Rock on!

Ferd

[alternativez2003]

Hey, I must be nuts reading all these posts because I have better things to do to, but I was really surprised that you guys would consider being elitists about any hybridization of a Zcar; that's what Zcars do best! I'm working on a BMW 3.5 L6 into a 70 Z and there is nowhere that I can see ideas as I have here, even though there has been little on this site specifically for that concept. I did a 327 into a 70 back in 1973, so V8Z's have been around since the Scarabs of the 70's, but I didn't realize, I guess, that this site was intended to be so righteous about them while claiming no "Nissan only" creeds by others. Sorry if I've offended, but my only posts here were researched and mostly intended to seek out others with a similar interest. I log in nearly every day and cruise new posts and old, and thoroughly enjoy the quality of the site. I can show my wife posts here without worrying about unexpectedly finding naked girls instead of centerfold quality pictorals of Zcars. I'm also an English teacher and boy, could I use some posts for editing practice, so I appreciate the desire for professionalism. Yes, there are other sites, but you folks have done a superior job here, and by doing so, you will grow and attract a greater following. Sorry you've had to deal with difficulties, but honestly, some of the language and tone by some of the administrators' posts is setting a poor example for these "newbies" you refer to. You were once novices or newbies, and someone probably helped you, and now you have crossed over to the experienced side and have lots of experience and the contacts to help the next generation of hot rodders. Be glad you've had the opportunity to help somebody else.

Good luck