Sparky Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Think global, end prejudice, and to go farther - make fair labor standards for all countries woo, thats thinking big, and dreaming big as well. Developed countries need those third world countries to stay just that. lets say you take a country like Algeria in Africa. you've got a country thats torn the fark up from post colonialism, it also happens to have a great deal of natural resources that the developed world needs/wants. if your the US and your businesses need the cheapest possible materials so they can build things as cheap as possible, are you going to institute fair labor laws there? No your not. if you do so, you might make the standard of living a little higher there, but at what cost to your own voting public (or CEO campaign supporters) when that country starts to pay its workers more, the cost of those materials go up, and the final product goes up as well. its all about the good life here, but not for those countries that our businesses here and abroad depend on. ah yes! hypocrisy! Actually it's not other countries, these are American companies just "over there" often times, competing against our jobs. Take Nike for example. They pay dirt wages but due to economic circumstance in Vietnam. They build a shoe for $3. We don't get it for $10,11,12, even $20 would be a great profit. They could pay their workers a living wage for next to no loss in profit, but why do so if their aren't any rules? No, they take the money and spend so much on advertising as to ram the swish down our throats. That money is good for the economy, but the price tag is still $150. So much for passing the savings on to the consumer... how bout Levis, they just moved all operations to china. smart move on their part, not only can they keep the price the same WHILE making more money, but they get to move into a market completely void of workers comp and labor unions. its the USs own sue happy citizens that cause some of these problems. look at California! How many businesses have to move into Nevada before they do something about the laws there. anywho, this problem could be discussed for days, lets not even bring the world bank or IMF into this. GEEZ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nic-Rebel450CA Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Think global, end prejudice, and to go farther - make fair labor standards for all countries. One reason that we can't compete is because some countries could care less about employee safety or rights, and unfortunately those are "hotspots" where business can be most profitable. Regulate them more and we could better compete in an atmosphere where workers don't have to work under the lash to allow cheap stuff for us. Yes, I suppose a form of global communism would work for a while. Communism would be great if humans werent involved. BTW, I am only using the term "communism" because of how applicable it is here, I am not trying to start an arguement on how much it meets the definition of communism, that is just the closest economical term to being accurate. Geez, a disclaimer on a topic reply Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awd92gsx Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Hehe...well, Socialism has worked great for most European countries for a very long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaparral2f Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 ["you've got a country thats torn the fark up from post colonialism, it also happens to have a great deal of natural resources that the developed world needs/wants. if your the US and your businesses need the cheapest possible materials so they can build things as cheap as possible, are you going to institute fair labor laws there? "] Sounds like an historical rationalization for what we fought a war to erradicate in the mid 19th century. it is hypocracy to follow this line of thinking, and then look around at the rest of the world and say "Gee, I wonder why everyone hates us." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 As a consumer, I don't care where the product is made...as long as the quality and price (read value) is what i expect. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Just keep in mind guys that we are, for now, on the top of the economic food chain. Any attempt to level the playing field is going to bring us DOWN, not everyone else UP, at least not to our level. There are those people willing to forego the good things in life to bring up the world's standard of living, and there are rich people who donate all of their money and live a poor life. I am not one of those people. If that is hypocritical or unjust so be it. I don't even want to pursue an economic policy of communism or socialism in this country, let alone the world as a whole. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PETEW Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 ["you've got a country thats torn the fark up from post colonialism' date= it also happens to have a great deal of natural resources that the developed world needs/wants. if your the US and your businesses need the cheapest possible materials so they can build things as cheap as possible, are you going to institute fair labor laws there? "] Sounds like an historical rationalization for what we fought a war to erradicate in the mid 19th century. it is hypocracy to follow this line of thinking, and then look around at the rest of the world and say "Gee, I wonder why everyone hates us." I'm not sure what your point is here. Are you saying that we should fight for 3rd world countries so they can have better safer work enviornments, or..... We can't go fighting everyones battles. People are going to hate us no matter what we do. The same country that we give Billions of dollars of aid one year has people burning the flag a few months later. Even though the American companies pay them nothing, it is the only job available so it is better than nothing. It's easy to say we should all hold hands and sing Give Peace a Chance but it ain't gonna happen. Don't anyone fool yourself into thinking that the Americans are the only one taking advantage of the cheap labor. There are plenty of other countries riding in the same boat. The world is a screwed up place (just watch the news), I would just like to see it get better for my kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 I had an entire essay here, but this whole subject gave me the red-ass so I deleted it. All I will say is enjoy it while it lasts, 'cause it's on it's way to another country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKDGabe Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 'cause it's on its way to another country You're sending the essay to another country?! Other countries could be brought up to our standard if the people were given the freedom to keep what they earned. Without that freedom it ain't gonna happen. It doesn't matter whether it's the government/mafia etc. taking it, the result is the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavy Z Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Just as we see here, in 1903 some people thought fair labor standards in this country were impossible, thay'd say "business owners are too powerful and they control the government too, there's no way things are going to change!" In this case, things did change thanks to middle-class people who were upset at the power of the rich and afraid of revolution from the poor. They stood up collectively and took back this country, instituting regulations on child labor, safety, fair wages and hours, etc. A president named Theodore Roosevelt, a republican, fought against the pro-business side of his party and along with other progressive republicans and democrats, were able to change our system for the better. Nothing more American than the power of the people. Sparky is being realistic, business would certainly fight hard to stop any changes these days. They have learned a few lessons over the years and now with the price of elections we will probably never see another president who isn't either a rich man or had to shake hands with a lot of special interests on the way up. So, in that sense he makes a good point that it's unlikely to change. The middle-class would once again need to become concerned enough to do something, back 100 years ago they got interested from reading articles from magazines like McClure's which spotlighted society's problems. Today we have the internet, but 90% of the people just load up on what TV has to offer, and if you look who owns the networks you'll see it's the same people who have no interest in fixing things. This makes it hard to get people interested, when they are kept busy by the likes of O.J., Condit, Peterson, etc. The truth is that with a president and the people behind such a concept it wouldn't be difficult for the USA to institute regulations. This isn't communism or socialism, no change in how we govern ourselves, just an agreement with the world that if you are going to sell your goods in the U.S. then standards must be met. We are the biggest market in the world, countries would be forced to comply or lose out big on profits. CEO's will try to scare you into thinking prices would skyrocket, when they are the ones who have seen gigantic jumps in pay in the last 15 years. Wage increases would not impact the price of goods as much as some of you think, and now that workers have more money, do you know what they do with it? They spend it on all sorts of stuff - our products hopefully. Good for the global economy all the way around, aside from that some CEO's wouldn't get their $100 million bonus in addition to their $150 million salary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silicone boy Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 I'm really impressed with this thread. Everyone seems so insightful and eloquent, and I don't see a whole lot of "Buy American" sentiment here. I think everyone realizes that that Toyota built in the States uses brakes sourced in the US, made by Americans, as well as wiper motors, bumpers, etc. For my part, I have done a lot to narrow the trade deficit in the past year by replacing the Japanese motor in a Japanese car with a Chevy block. SCAT crank, SRP pistons, heads by Airflow Research, cam and rockers by Comp Cams, oil pan by Moroso ( I wonder if it would cost less than $200 of we could outsource the production in Malaysia at $1/hr--after all, it's just a metal pan) I guess people who aren't purists like most of the members of this board tend to be more open and tolerent and see the futility of the "Buy American Only" philosophy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bluex_v1 Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 ...just an agreement with the world that if you are going to sell your goods in the U.S. then standards must be met. We are the biggest market in the world, countries would be forced to comply or lose out big on profits. Isn't this the job of the consumer? We have so many resources, especially with the growth of the internet, to make extremely informed purchasing decisions. How many of us avoid tools from Harbor Freight like the plauge because we know they are just going to result in bloody knuckles when they snap? At the same time, I will buy recovery straps, hitches, etc for typical use from there with no concerns because there is a margin of safety built into them. I don't know, my point I guess is, we as consumers enable everything that happens in our global economic system. We don't need more regulations. Now I think organized boycotts are a good thing if it is against a company that is false advertising or knowingly producing a substandard product, but generally your normal spending habits will work their way through and adjustments will be made as a result. I believe the only way to level the playing field and bring a net increase to the global quality of life is to continue in the persuit of advancing technology and finding ways to create things more efficiently (using fewer human, raw, and energy resources). The best way to promote advancement of technology is to provide an environment that rewards innovation and profit. Someone has to take the lead and break trail to make it easier for those who follow. Americans are soft, we could use the competition to light a fire under our asses and evolve our system to whatever is next after the 'service industry'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nic-Rebel450CA Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 ...just an agreement with the world that if you are going to sell your goods in the U.S. then standards must be met. We are the biggest market in the world, countries would be forced to comply or lose out big on profits. Not sure who said this, but I saw it quoted in bluex_v1's post. The problem isnt that anyone has to comply. For the most part, these arent products being made by a foreign market, these are products from a US market being made in foreign countries. If you ask me, all I think that needs to be done is that the minimum wage laws should be re-written to include anyone that a company employs, regardless of where they live. Correct me if I am wrong, but I dont think that there is a national minimum wage, this is left up to the states. This means that the state can set the minimum wage for companies who have employees in that state. This should be changed to nation-wide and say that any company that operates in the US must pay the minimum wage regardless of residency. Of course, if the companies still chose to pay someone in India, for example, the minimum wage instead of paying someone here in the US, I might consider moving to India to roll in the dough that would be about 20 times the average salary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 There is a national minimum wage. I think it is $5.25, but then the states can choose to raise the minimum wage from there. If the govt took the advice you gave to give a minimum wage to every employee even in other countries, the companies would just move to the Carribean, where those laws don't apply. They already are to get away from taxes. The problem is that the tax burden on American companies is already too high. Adding costs by adding this minimum wage would drive the companies out of the US. And they would leave. "Proud to be an American" only goes so far especially when huge $$$ is on the line. Here's a scary story for you: http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/08/270875.shtml That is a political forum, not a news story. Couldn't find the original CNN story... Apparenty the GOP has moved the fundraising telemarketers to INDIA. Maybe I'm the only one who is just learning about this now, but holy crap! This is bad. I can't believe that people running for political office in this country are outsourcing the campaign fundraising to other countries... apparently Ross Perot owns the company?!?! WTF!?!?! Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKDGabe Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Ross Perot owns the company That's the giant sucking sound... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Yeah, I guess I didn't realize HE was gonna do the sucking. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Some of you guys sound so, so, so... French. Caveat Emptor works both ways. Use your purchasing power to add weight to your opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKDGabe Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 As a matter of fact, I do. It often hurts, but I do it anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavy Z Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 Use your purchasing power to add weight to your opinions. Some people do, while untold amounts of money are spent convincing those that don't know better to keep on buying. If we really love this system then why not share it? Why look for places to exploit in ways we wouldn't tolerate ourselves? To sit and talk about how great our freedom is without wanting to pass it along is hypocritical, it'd be like talking up Hybrid Z's all day and then if someone from Bolivia posts you try to stop them from building one. Those of you that think wage increases elsewhere would cost us too much, consider the Disney plant in Haiti. They pay the workers seven cents to make shirt that sells for fifteen dollars. The workers have tried desperately to get this up to fourteen cents because they can't pay all their bills and get heavily in debt - like the old sharecropping days here. Disney laughed them out of their corporate headquarters saying the same crap - they can't afford it. Do you think some parent is really going to care if a Donald Duck shirt is $15 or $15.07, if they want it for their kid? Would you stop buying anything costing $15 for this small amount of an increase? Of course not, most Americans could care less about seven or even seventy cents if it meant a living wage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 Talk about a powder keg (lol). I find it easier to undestand this world if all issues are placed under one of three sub-categories: Economics, Politics, Religion. I was watching one of the main news channels a few months ago and their little ticker tape down at the bottom read that over 3million American jobs had been lost post 911. This number did not account for the millions of jobs that had been lost pre 911 due to GATT and NAFTA. To say this is the bottom line-and then give an ipinion...is impossible, simply because there are many bottom lines when manimpulating an economy or attempting to keep one afloat via Problem Reaction Solution. I say manipulating an economy because our economy is a debt based economy. The dollar bill is a debt [instrument]. If anyone has ever read the constitution, how many nowadays even knows where to find a copy of the constitution(?), you will read that only Gold & Silver can discharge a debt. So then where has our Gold & Silver gone and why are we now only using Paper Instruments? No need to give me an answer as I already know the answer....I also know that most people reading this will not understand it. You can not have a free trade when the trade is not allowed to take place freely. In a debt based economy you and I-the consumer are required to continue borrowing, this ensures that the debt borrowing will continue: therefore the debt based economy flows as well. If you and I dont borrow-then the state will have to do it for us. The state, govermnet, is only good at creating one thing-at that is war. This is similar to the movie "Beyond Thunderdome" when the underground decided to "stop the poop from flowing". Once the poop stopped flowing the economy came crashing to a halt. Our debt based economy will do the same if the debt ceases to flow. This is why the mfg's are giving such great deals on loans...American or non-American products: such as 0 down/0 financing and 0 payments for 1 or 2 years. Think about the debt based economy next time you pull the debt based paper instrument out of your wallet. You only have that paper instrument because someone before you made a loan (borrowed). The nuances of instruments are way too involved to put it into one thread. It almost takes a lifetime to understand. The reality is that our economy is being globalized. Globalization is here, only now are we the stubborn, and most of the time pre-occupied/stupid Amerians, refusing to see it: yet the growing pains are there. America as it was suppose to be, ceased after the Civil War. Yes-a lot of this dives into the politics and religion and dare I say it, a spritual realm of who is going to be the top dog? Cornwallis after being defeated during the Revolutionary War proudly proclaimed that they, "The Brits" would have America under its control within 200 years. Who was he speaking for when he said "we". He wasnt speaking for the Brits, he was speaking for his financers...the king and the kings bankers: which translates into the "law merchant" which can be further translated into contracts. The 13 Colonies were not initially nations, they were a corporation of the king. Corporation = commerce = law merchant. These very issues being discussed on this thread were being argued thousands of years ago...it was a different dance-but the song was the same. Back then the fight was against the individual -vs- the king. Then once the king conquered the people the battle was king -vs- Papacy. Then somewhere along the 1200-1300 Century came this odd character...the Law Merchant. The Law Merchant slowly gained power till hundreds of years later all of our laws are now surrounded by this law merchant. The conflict now is National -vs- International. All laws are based on the form of money being used. When we had the Gold/Silver Standard we had common law. Once our glorious political leaders did away w/the Gold/Silver Standard we lost our ability to discharge a debt. Now all we have are paper instruments...which is regulated by the UCC. We are a nation of law merchants. The individual no longer has a say...unless it is time for re-elections, then we have the perception of making a difference. BTW: you are not suppose to be an employee-you are suppose to be a worker. The defintion of an employee is a public definition whereas the term worker is a private definition. States/Feds have a duty to regulate public commerce but they dont have a duty to regulate private commerce. Yet, just try and have a rational conversation of inherent rights w/any officer these days-moot to say the least. If a nation of people dont know their history-then they are doomed to repeat it. We are repeating our past downfalls simply because no one understands the distinctions between private -vs- public. IMHO: I say our problem is humanity. Anytime we choose to impose our will on someone else we have crossed the line. IMHO: our problem w/the world is not something you can put a finger on unless you understand that our economy is not in a vacuum and that things dont happen simply by accident: we are fighting a spiritual problem. Like Terry said....enjoy it while you have it because it wont last too much longer. Our economy is a debt based economy that is fighting to not go belly up. Oh well, that is my .02c's worth. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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