JMortensen Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Pop, where are those statistics from? Almanac? DOJ? FBI? Not doubting the figures at all, just want to know the source. I had a discussion with a co-worker who also worked with inner city youths. She told me how they had no chance to make it, and how they had to join gangs and sell drugs just to survive. I asked her what would happen if a young man in that situation just got up one morning and walked from away from the bad part of town. Just threw some clothes in a backpack and just walked away. The ensuing struggle couldn't possibly be any worse than fearing for your life every day, right? She agreed, but said that these kids were TOTALLY DEVOID OF HOPE. They knew what life had in store for them. They were going to die on the streets or end up in prison, so they became calloused and hardened and didn't care what happened beyond getting high and selling drugs, and the occasional adrenaline rush from a firefight or running from the cops. They had this so ingrained in their minds that, as she put it: "They would never even think of just walking away." Sorry if this post came off as sappy, but that's really how I feel on this one. As to how you fix that situation, I have no idea... Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majik16106 Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 My thoughts follow the bumper sticker, guns dont kill people, people kill people, without guns, you would see more stabbings, more people beaten to death with sticks and stones, swords and bats.. etc. In almost every other modernized country (if not all of them) the level of gun related deaths is nothing compared to ours. The united states does not have a gun problem, we have a people problem. Stupid, ignorant, self righteous and most of all, mentally disturbed people walk around in mass in this country, you see it all the time, so its no wonder that people constantly shoot people in this country. there are means to make sure your kids dont get your gun, knowledge, safety and respect are the means to owning firearms without accidents. The same can be said for cars, like said in the first page, the same dumbass people who are running red lights and going through road rage on a daily basis, not paying attention, and blaming everyone on the road for THIER being late to an office meeting, are the same people killing people. I dont personally carry a gun, but im scared out of my mind almost everyday driving on i75 or ga 400 in rush hour traffic. Its the people, not the "tool". guns are going to be needed for defense for as long as people continue to do the evil done today, it would be real nice if only people like hussien, osama, hitler, mussoulini, etc.. were the only ones to have them right? and sure you can argue, if we never invented it, they couldnt use it, but eventually someone was gonna make killing easier.. its a good thing I can get ahold of a means to properly defend myself against those people if necessary, like i said, i dont personally own one, but im glad i have the ability to get one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 There is no right to privacy in the U.S. constitution. I am 19 and have been raised around guns of all types my whole life. Heck since i was 10 i have been cleaning my dads service weapons. My dad has tought me and my brother the right way to shoot' date=' firearms safty and the responcibility of owning a firearm. If A person wants to carry a weapon they should have to go through some sort of training to impose the responcibility's and consequenses of their actions on them. In Ga you have to be 21 to carry a consealed weapon. When i turn 21 i plan on getting one. Its a person right to chose if they want to own and or carry a firearm. [img']http://www.hybridz.org/phpBB2/album_pic.php?pic_id=2838[/img] Andrew Please don't post those pictures. There are gross human rights violations occuring in that area and they are not just commited by the Palistinians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 I think a lot of you have misinterpreted the reason why we have the right to bare arms. It's not so much to protect yourself from the criminal stealing something of yours (although it would be helpful), but to protect yourself from a tyrannical and unlawful government - much of which has occured under our current presidential adminstration. The blatant erosion of the Bill of Rights under the Patriot Act and Patriot Act 2 (which has been split up and made into rider bills which are attatched to many budget type bills that will pass). As bad as Bill Clinton and his administration was for their lobbying of anti-gun legislation the same holds true for Bush and what he has done to our rights (which is directly related to our right to arm). I leave you with a quote from our current president: "Freedom should be limited," George W. Bush Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afshin Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 I really wish people cared as deeply about more fundemantal rights that are being taken away with the patriot act and the following freedom act. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone with a money interest (i.e. gun manufacturers) has an interest in our most basic rights such as privacy and fair trial (i.e. not military tribunal in cuba....) or being put on a no flying list without any reason being offered to those banned from flying... Guns IMO are such a smaller issue, I feel that the NRA has made it a huge issue because of money not rights, otherwise they would be fighting the patriot act. As I said earlier guns are not the cause of violence, they increase the death rate by making it easy to kill. If you really believe that making a million handguns per day and selling them with minimal to no restriction makes you safer or that's what ensures your freedom, then there is no point arguing. Also, my reference to Moore's flic was as a fun (because of his bias) sarcastic clip not as a document that explains all the issues and reason's for violence.... Regardless of your angle he makes some interesting points, even if others are a stretch. You wan't to hear about lies from our government in a fun and accurate format, read: lies and the lying lyars who tell them by Al Franken. See if you can make Moore's innacuracies as a problem after that. I don't think guns are a specially good part of the U.S.A. and a worthy symbol of freedom, I thought other basic right where the best part. To bad no industry is preparing all the arguments and getting people emotional about the patriot act. I believe Ben Franklin said: those who prefer safety over freedom deserve neither. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Vashe Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Now i know that i don't post often, but this topic has me interested. I think the best example i can come up is this. http://www.hybridz.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18143&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 I am rather surprised no one has talked about that in this subject on gun control and laws. Let's not forget what happened to one of our fellow Z "brother-in-arms". If i happened to offend anyone by posting this here, then please send me a PM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synlubes Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Parents ? Our society faces a lot its problems from the decline of moral valves that our parents used to teach us. If your situation is not a good one, you do what you have to and make it better. I will not except any excuses! To many in our society think someone else should / needs to do something for them. I have a “Get off your ass and do it your self†mentality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 I really wish people cared as deeply about more fundemantal rights that are being taken away with the patriot act and the following freedom act. Unfortunately' date=' I don't think anyone with a money interest (i.e. gun manufacturers) has an interest in our most basic rights such as privacy and fair trial (i.e. not military tribunal in cuba....) or being put on a no flying list without any reason being offered to those banned from flying... Guns IMO are such a smaller issue, I feel that the NRA has made it a huge issue because of money not rights, otherwise they would be fighting the patriot act. As I said earlier guns are not the cause of violence, they increase the death rate by making it easy to kill. If you really believe that making a million handguns per day and selling them with minimal to no restriction makes you safer or that's what ensures your freedom, then there is no point arguing. Also, my reference to Moore's flic was as a fun (because of his bias) sarcastic clip not as a document that explains all the issues and reason's for violence.... Regardless of your angle he makes some interesting points, even if others are a stretch. You wan't to hear about lies from our government in a fun and accurate format, read: lies and the lying lyars who tell them by Al Franken. See if you can make Moore's innacuracies as a problem after that. I don't think guns are a specially good part of the U.S.A. and a worthy symbol of freedom, I thought other basic right where the best part. To bad no industry is preparing all the arguments and getting people emotional about the patriot act. I believe Ben Franklin said: those who prefer safety over freedom deserve neither.[/quote'] I used to think that guns were the problem. The more I thought about it, more and more I was finding it was irresponsibility and stupidity that were causing the problem. We should be allowed to protect ourselves in the event of tyrannical government. As things like the Patriot Act pass and our freedoms are limited, the more it makes me want a few weapons to my name. When the FBI can search through your financial records or internet stuff without a warrant or you even knowing it, the more scary this country becomes. When the entire Green party is put on a no-fly list, because they are related to Al-Quaida some way or another is just B.S. Sorry, I don't mean to go off on a tangent, but the degredation of our Bill of Rights isn't something to be taken lightly. If it comes down to it, I want to be able to defend myself in the event of a 1984 scenario (Those of you who read the book will understand). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 So Doug, what you are saying is it is a deffective Valve??? Well atleast it is a hard part that can be swapped out! " Thank you very much, I'm here all week!" I agree that parenting has become a joke. More parents take the easy way out and DON'T provide good examples... Afshin, The Patriot Act is not a bad thing, based on the current world threat to our safety from the attacks of 9/11/01 all the way back to the first attacks on the world trade center in the early 90s. Say what you will, but I don't believe ENOUGH is being done to protect us from illegal immigrants/ alliens coming into the country, obtaining legal documentation, and then traveling within our borders untrace-able, with free reign to do as they will... Nope, I say ratchet down another 12 notches and you will get somewhere closer to where we need to be... Our threat from terrorism comes from within... More gun control... Teach people to hit what they are aiming at! As for the discussions over the problems of turning the corner with inner city youth... Well I worked with the DC youth squad for 6 months. In that short period of time I became so burned out towards the problems, and that is THE problem. Those who work in the trenches day after day take on the problems of inner city youth. After a while the stench of the inner city becomes a funk, like a dirty coat, and you don't even realize you have become a part of it. It consumes and then you are no more effective than the politicians on capital hill. Some would say that the "REAL" problem of inner city youth is that there aren't enough guns on the streets... If so, maybe more of them would remove themselves from the gene pool. Not sure how I feel about that, although the statistics posted about Baltimore, MD. are interesting... Sorry, but walk like a gangster, talk like a gangster, sell dope like a gangster... BOOM. That theory is great, except often innicent people are caught in the cross fire. That is the ONLY unfortunate part of the scenario. Personally I think if you get caught selling dope on our streets, you should be given one of two options... Neither of them would include short stays in the county or state system. We all make decisions everyday... We decide what we will do... You either wake up and say I'm NOT going to do this for a living anymore, and I AM going to become a productive human being, or you continue down the path of destruction, taking others with you. It is THAT simple. Unfortunately, we like to look at other areas to place blame. Quite frankly, it sickens me. Put the blame squarely at the feet of those who actively make the decision to do something illegal. Mike 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Mike, you know that while a few non citizen Arabs who were floating around flight schools asking how to fly a plane, but not how to take off or land, the FBI was busy busting 12 hookers. It was thought to be the biggest FBI raid within the last 10 years. I'm not completely sure on the facts, but I pretty sure they were more worried about raiding a brothel instead of asking why these non-citizens only wanted to learn how to fly instead of taking off or landing. As for the Patriot Act, and the split up Patriot Act 2, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want some agent running through your financial files on a whim or your internet files. I understand that if you've done nothing wrong than you shouldn't have to worry, right? I don't think anyone wants live in that fear. Again, George Orwell's http://1984 some of the most interesting reading on the subject (albeit fictional, but the themes are there). I'll cite Mr. Franklin's thoughts on this topic, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." (He, George Washington, etc. where all labeled as terrorists by the British government. Not to say what happened wasn't wrong, I'm not implying that those who flew the planes were not terrorists, but that word can easliy be thrown around, just as communist was during the Cold War) Being free and unafraid of government repurcussions (spelling?) are essential to a properly running free democracy or republic in America's case. Being able to better track immigrants into the country is one thing, but to throw our own citizens in jail indefinitely without legal representation is just assenine. If you are labeled an enemy of the state during wartime, which is now, you can be placed in jail for any length of time without any legal representation. Hell...knowing what is going on with our rights, I could be labeled an enemy. If I disapear from the board, who knows. Maybe the feds have me locked up somewhere. We have now re-entered the McCarthy era. Scary, isn't it? http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6456/ (And it's even more ironic, because Russia was not anywhere near communist. It was tyranny disguised as one.) I found another few from Mr. Franklin "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." and "Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." and lastly "Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech." Here's a site with many more inspirational words from Mr. Franklin: http://www.mises.org/fullstory.asp?control=1144 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Afshin' date=' The Patriot Act is not a bad thing, based on the current world threat to our safety from the attacks of 9/11/01 all the way back to the first attacks on the world trade center in the early 90s. [/quote'] Weren't they American citizens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Moridin, Uh, No THEY weren't citizens. Also, My finances do get scrutenized once per year by the government... I have to fill out a Financial Disclosure form, and I take a polygraph every five years in order to keep my TS clearance. Also, Your example of the FBI busting a brothel is a JOKE. Sorry, but maybe you don't understand that, not unlike a regular police department, the FBI and every OTHER law enforcement agency in the country has different divisions looking at different types of crime... While these terrorists were learning to fly, the FBI was likely looking for child abductors, bank robbers, counterfeiters, and many other fraud related crimes, as well as working other various task forces within the federal, local, and international law enforcement communities. The quotes from Orwell are almost comical at this point... And those from Mr. Franklin... Well he didn't have the ills of today's society facing his door... I don't recall jumbo jets smashing onto the lawns of Montecello or Philidelphia. Working in the community I'm in, I have a vastly different opinion than many of our members here... Sorry. Mike 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 I apologize...I was thinking of the Oklahoma bombing. I didn't start paying much attention to this stuff until a few years ago (I just recently was able to vote). I cite the Orwell, because I personally believe the themes are very important. when talking about too much governmental control over its citizens. During Franklin's time, people had to deal with a much more direct threat. Many probably had British military stationed within their home at one time or another. They understood that the erosion of freedoms was the erosion of a free and liberal society. That is your choice to disclose your information and keep your TS clearance though. Personally, I don't want the government to be going through my personal information without them a) notifying me and b)obtaining the proper warrant(s). I believe there is something in the Constitution about obtaining warrants and such. The reason I bring up the brothel, is because there was so much effort put into so such a small thing, which to me, is a joke in itself. Had some of the resources been shifted to finding out why these immigrants where wondering how to fly, but not how to land, things may have been prevented. And, when looking to why these people are flying planes into our buildings, shouldn't the government be looking at its own foreign policies. I don't mean to be an a** when I post responses like the ones I have, but I do it to learn. I like to know why people think and believe the way they do. The only way to find out why, is to challenge. I think we, as citizens should be able to own any sort of gun, short of fully automatic weapons. Anything else should be fine. Instead of trying to ban weapons, why not teach the responsibilities of owning a firearm. I know the NRA does, but sometimes I think there is a little too much money involved in their agenda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Pop, where are those statistics from? Almanac? DOJ? FBI? Not doubting the figures at all, just want to know the source. I retained those numbers from years of reading newspapers, so references take a bit of work to dig up. The Baltimore numbers were from a Baltimore Sun article that became engrained in my mind some years back. The National number is older in my mind. A quick Google search turned up this link: http://www.mppgv.org/a%20closer%20look.htm A few excepts Taking a closer look at these statistics gives us cause for great alarm. Although black males between the ages of 15 and 34 made up roughly 2% of Michigan’s total population, they accounted for close to 50% of its gun homicides. While for the population at large, only 69% of all homicides were committed with firearms, within this subset, 87% of homicides were committed with firearms. In total, black males accounted for 66% of all firearm homicides during this period. Comparing the relative risk of firearm homicide for white males and black males raises chilling concerns about our black youth. Black males aged 15-19 were 40 times more likely to be murdered by firearm than white males of the same age. The disparity in risk decreases slightly with age, as black males aged 20-24 were 35 times more likely to suffer this fate than white males of the same age, while those aged 25-34 were 23 times more likely than their white counterparts to be murdered with a firearm. In general, risk increases as family income decreases, … There are quite a number of other statistics about educational level, marital status, etc. The information is out there. Another good link I found this morning http://www.techcentralstation.com/062600D.html In 1998, the most recent year for which we have complete data, the chance that an American would be murdered was roughly 1 in 16,000. That's the lowest murder rate we've had since the 1960s. By means of comparison, in 1998 you had a greater chance of dying of septicemia, a blood poisoning by a virulent microorganism. You were also more likely to die of nephritis, an inflammation of the kidney, than to be murdered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Moridin, To seek knowledge is a good thing. To truly understand that knowledge is even better... I applaud you in your quest! You, like my stepsons, are the future. Therefore, I take it as my personal challenge to educate from the fence... I'm the eternal pessemist. Due to my early career and education (I have a degree in criminal justice) in law enforcement, and then spending some 17 years in the federal government's intelligence community, I get a little peeved when comments from the average joe citizen are thrown about with such careless abandon, especially when talk of disarmament of our civilian population comes up... I also get a little sensative to the topics of government mishandling of investigations and civil liberties... If 100 rights are trampled on in order to stave off another 9/11, then lay down my rights and spray paint welcome on them for the Feds to wipe their feet... I'll show my need for change at the next election pole, but will do so while waving the stars and stripes, under a secure nation, protected by those who would give their lives in order to keep us in some semblance of freedom. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 If 100 rights are trampled on in order to stave off another 9/11, then lay down my rights and spray paint welcome on them for the Feds to wipe their feet... Mike You may want to be a little careful there. I, like I know you do also, believe the constitution to be a sacred agreement granting the government the privilege of governing us. I once swore an oath, like I know you did, to lay down my life to defend that document. Not questioning your patriotism or your motives, but I think you need to be much more careful in what you are willing to give up. Some things can be very expensive to get back once they are lost. Once you start cutting corners with one part of the constitution the rest of it is left on shaky ground. Historically, individual rights have always been given short shrift in times of war. Happened in this country also (Manzanar immediately comes to mind). That is why despotic dictators gravitate toward war so quickly, fear is a sure fire way to erode peoples rights without argument. I also believe the Patriot Act is swinging the pendulum too far to the right. But I also have complete and total faith that eventually we will correct this anomaly and remain true to our constitutional beliefs. And as a card carrying member of the NRA I don’t want the NRA to get in the middle of the Patriot Act issue, unless of course they try to use 9-11 to further erode our gun rights. The NRA needs to focus on their core mission and let other groups take up the patriot act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 I stand by my statement with the faith that american citizens will elect and vote in change bringing the pendulum back to the other side, once they decide the good fight against terrorism is won. We have seen this before, and I know through the oversite committees I've seen reporting on this very subject, very few REAL cases are out there where citizens violations can be tracked... Simply put, the Patriot and Patriot 2 Could be very dangerous if left unsupervised. However, The current administration is under no illusion. The slightest hint of abuses and officials are being removed form positions and put on admin investigations... Happening on a regular basis. They are watching this like hawks over on the hill... No, I rest my case... Are your freedoms currently being stepped on? Yes. Are they for the right reasons if used accirding to the design? Yes. I have faith... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 In times of war (and we're forgetting that we are at war with groups of people that are intent on killing as many of us as they can) its common in this country for civil liberties to be curtailed TEMPORARILY. This was true during the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Civil War, the Spanish American War, and World Wars 1 and 2. The framers of the constitution knew that and provided mechanisms for governemnt to accoplish these temporary acts. Only during the Korean "Police Action" and the Vietnam War were civil liberties left basically untouched. Both of those wars were political in nature and not a direct threat. Al Queda HAS infiltrated the US and has successfully carried out two separate attacks that have killed about 3,000 people. They are still trying to kill more of us. In all this discusison of the Patriot Act and our loss of civil liberties this simple fact gets forgotten. This is not some abstract legal argument. WE ARE AT WAR WITH PEOPLE THAT CAN, DO, AND WILL KILL US! Remember, the ACLU can't and won't protect you from a guy with a bomb strapped to his chest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 John Coffey for President!!!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Remember, the ACLU can't and won't protect you from a guy with a bomb strapped to his chest. So you're telling me you want to trust the police to protect you in the next terror attack? Or the Department of Homeland Security's balloons? Is it the gas meter guy snooping around your house that makes you safer? Is it Carnivore? Which of the govt's reduction of YOUR freedoms is helping to catch a terrorist? I'm not saying hamstring the govt in their search, but there should be enough legit things they can do to help track these guys down. BTW--funny fake headline from a few years back "ACLU defends KKK's right to burn down ACLU headquarters!" I think the govt can fight this fight without trampling all over the citizens. The govt should be pushing to get as many concealed carry laws on the books as possible. And I don't think hijacking another plane is going to happen, just because you'd have to have a whole plane full of sheep ready to die at the hands of the terrorists, since we all now know their plan. In times of war (and we're forgetting that we are at war with groups of people that are intent on killing as many of us as they can) its common in this country for civil liberties to be curtailed TEMPORARILY. The president says this war is going to last for YEARS. Do you really want this kind of "rights curtailment" to go on for YEARS??? Do you have some examples of this happening in previous wars? I am very aware that PRESIDENTIAL powers are very often greatly expanded in wartime, much to the chagrin of Congress. I'm not sure that I've ever heard of civil liberties being curtailed with the exception of the internment of the Japanese in WWII. I can imagine habeas corpus was in the Civil War which could be argued either way, so give me another if you don't mind. I thought the whole deal with the Bill of Rights was that it specifically stated what the govt CANNOT do, while the rest of the document says just what it can and should do. I would imagine that the idea was that these rights should NEVER be compromised in a time of war, otherwise why have Amendment III, "No soldier shall be quartered..." Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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