Guest bastaad525 Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 Well okay this is odd... dropped the tranny today and found out that my flywheel is actually a bit worn, and the pressure is worse than I remember. Maybe since I do so much more clutch slipping with the turbo since I switched over? Well I was warned that this is the problem with the ACT clutch... it's such a strong clutch material, but somethings got to give. So while the clutch itself may last several times longer than a stock clutch, the flywheel and pressure plate surfaces suffer. Sucks now I have to get rid of my lightened flywheel I can't resurface it, or so the machinist said when he lightened it, and I cant really afford to buy another one and have it resurfaced right now, so I'm just gonna have to put it in there stock-like. Anyways I'm just curious, a guy from the boards offering me a very good deal on a centerforce DF... I really dont know much about this clutch other than what you guys have told me so far. Are they as hard on the flywheel/pressure plate as an ACT is? Also.... what exactly is so dual friction about the dual friction? The pic in the MSA catalog suggests it has two clutch plates instead of one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fl327 Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 centerforce easier on flywheel. i believe its an organic clutch dual friction means i think means it has weights on pp that make it engage harder on WOT, other wise its an organic clutch thats too stiff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 centerforce easier on flywheel.i believe its an organic clutch dual friction means i think means it has weights on pp that make it engage harder on WOT' date=' other wise its an organic clutch thats too stiff.[/quote'] The Centerforce dual friction has one friction surface towards the flywheel and another on the pressure plate. I don't know how the DF is on flywheels, but the organic Centerforce II I used hardly wore the flywheel at all. The whole Centerforce line has the weights in the pressure plate - It supposedly increases clamping pressure at higher RPMs, making it more civilized in street driving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fl327 Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 centerforce easier on flywheel.i believe its an organic clutch dual friction means i think means it has weights on pp that make it engage harder on WOT' date=' other wise its an organic clutch thats too stiff.[/quote'] The Centerforce dual friction has one friction surface towards the flywheel and another on the pressure plate. I don't know how the DF is on flywheels, but the organic Centerforce II I used hardly wore the flywheel at all. The whole Centerforce line has the weights in the pressure plate - It supposedly increases clamping pressure at higher RPMs, making it more civilized in street driving. ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 Okay here's the question, how much wear is acceptable wear on the flywheel and pressure plate surfaces?? I mean... when I drive the car it seems fine, no slipping or anything. I really had no idea to suspect that it would be worn like this from the way the car was running. Man I knew I shoulda picked up a clutch BEFORE starting work on the car. Well I guess after all this debate, Centerforce DF it is. Getting a really good deal on a slightly used one, and now that I've seen how bad the ACT chewed everything up, and knowing that I could have an easier pedal to deal with in traffic.... it all just came together The guy selling me the clutch says it came in the car that he bought... I just hope the person who originally installed it broke it in right Why do they wear so fast if they aren't broken in properly?? Is this something I'd be able to tell by looking? I just dont want my luck to prevail on this one... (you guys KNOW my luck...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 sandblast your friction surface on the flywheel and on the P-Plate if they have wear and the thing will start gripping,and you can restart the "breakin" procedure. The organic portion glazes and once slippery, it compounds itself. Be glad you didn't od your clutch like I did mine: Took it in for a dyno pull, and ended up smoking it (yeah, 250ft-lbs capacity, riiiight!) When I went to pull it out, found the flywheel with a clutch permanently attached! Couldn't pull it off---had to chisel it free. The center of the friction material had violently ripped out of the flywheels ide of the clutch, and attached itself to the flywheel. Spent some time chiseling it all off. Installed my CFDF later that day and haven't looked back. But I am under 300hp, and for that service it has served me well in a heavy 73 240ZT with 265's on the back! On my setup, it appears the tires are the "slipping point" because I just can't seem to make over 10K between "cordings"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 Well I had a screwed day ... anyways... part of me says this MAY have been a mistake, but I ended up going a tottally different route. I ended up just getting a stock replacement clutch disk, and a Daikin heavy duty pressure plate. Jmortensen and a couple others are confident this will be fine for the amount of power I"m putting down, while minimizing shock and wear on the motor and drivetrain. I just hope it wont slip. You know, the ACT performed great, but I dont think I'll ever go with another metallic clutch again. Just too rough on everything. If this stock/daikin setup doesn't work I'll switch to a CF II or DF... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nismo280zEd Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 Bro... Centerforce all the way.. i would swear my life on that clutch. After i dropped my clutch one day i noticed a shimmy when i let it outta first... finally after a week figured out it was the clutch.. only shimmied outta first... still floor it now slippage.. slam gears no problem... only shimmied getn' into first. So i got the new Centerforce to replace the old one (15years old) When i took it apart... all the material on the flywheel side was basically gone. About 1/8th of the material was left on it. No scratches on the flywheel, no burning. All the material on the tranny side was fine. I drove the car for about 3 weeks with it like that with no problems... that is why i would swear by the Centerforce Clutch. And the dual friction comes from two different material types. There is an organic and a type of metallic (bronze in color almost) My father has one installed in his 911, very nice clutch. -Ed BTW i use a Centerforce 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 Bro... Centerforce all the way.. i would swear my life on that clutch. And most of the SoCal Z racers I run with think the CF stuff is junk. We even gave Motorsports back the free Centerforce T-shirts and hats they gave us for being instructors at their autocross. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ON3GO Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 i also think CF is junk, have you guys ever seen what happens when those weights fly off?! i have, i even had pics some place and its not a good thing. i love act and thats what i have. another good clutch is spec! mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nismo280zEd Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 I don't want to start an argument on the forum, I would just like to see the pictures you have of the Centerforce clutches throwing of their weights. I've never heard of this problem before from anyone. John C if you don't mind i'm kinda curious as to why you and fellow racers think the Centerforce clutches are junk. Drop me an email Sourcandy@playful.com or a PM. I don't want to start any arguemnts i'm just kind of curious as i have never heard anything bad about them. Thanks, Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 Actually I had heard some bad things about centerforce before as well, which is why I was kind of leary of them, but, a lot of guys on here do run them on high powered setups with no problems. Either way, I probably wont ever end up using them. On the flipside, I probably wont ever use another ACT either, after hearing and seeing enough about just how rough they can be on the engine itself, on the flywheel... on everything. BUT, it's not that they are not a quality product. I used my ACT for over 60,000 miles and the clutch itself looked near new... it had just started to chew up everything else. I just dont think they are good clutches for a street driver or daily driver... really they are overkill. I like jmortensen's suggestion. Stock clutch disk with a good strong flywheel, either the ACT or Centerforce flywheel should do the trick, this time around I ended up getting a Daikin as it was cheap and was at a place very close to me, no ordering or waiting... the jury is still out on the Daikin as to whether it will be strong enough as I haven't be able to drive the car really, but it seems like it will no problems holding my moderately increased power levels, and a few guys I've talked to have vouched for the ability of this setup. The pedal feel is great, very livable.... the car much more enjoyable to drive now. Slipping is a breeze, no chattering at all, and no stiff sore leg if I get caught in traffic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 I think the biggest issue for most people is that the price/performance ratio is way too low for the CF clutches. For medium-output L-series motors (~250lb-ft for the 220mm, maybe 300lb-ft for the 240mm clutch) they gererally work fine and do have acceptably low pedal efforts. You will have slippage problems if you go much past that. For about the same price as the CD-DF, I got a custom-made sintered iron disk/ACT heavy duty pressure plate that's good for 500lb-ft. The disk is a sprung hub one piece disk (stock style, not a pucked disk), and it works very well - pedal effort is higher than stock, but the release is very stock-like. I was even able to get it made with a Chevy-style WC-T5-splined hub. BTW, I got that setup from Clutch Specialties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240hoke Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 Im running the centerforce DF clutch. Im not putting out crazy power but its respectable, 250-300 rwhp. I dont have ANY trouble with slippage and it engages really nicely. When i drop the clutch it breaks stuff, so there isnt any trouble with grab. I do have one issue with the clutch though. It is can make ALOT of noise when its cold. I have no idea what causes it. But alot of times when im pulling it out of the garage in the morning it makes a REALLY loud "whirrr" sound. But it only last for a short while and never does it on the road. ?? I've never had an ACT clutch, but i have heard lots of good things about them and will more then likely try one when the need arises. -Austin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fl327 Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 My friends clutch is audible like that too when the car is cold, hate it. I run a spec stg 2 kevlar disk, hasnt slipped yet, in a 280z with 12psi at times. I would recommend this clutch to anyone, its actually lighter than the stock clutch feel and grabs good, havent smelt it yet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Erik Messley, Bryan Lampe, Javier Guiterez, and Rich Maloney all raced ITS 240Zs here in the Cal Club region during the 1990s and early 2000s. Each tried the CF DF2 clutch/pressure plate and each found the clutch needed replacing after one, maybe two race weekends with the pressure plate going after three race weekends. All eventually switched to the Nissan Motorsports clutch and pressure plate and all would go at least 1 season before even needing to think about the clutch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Ahhhh I figure I better correct myself on something... I was WAY off on how many miles I thought I had put on my ACT clutch. Turns out I had around 25,000 miles on it when I pulled it out and replaced it a couple weeks ago. I was thinking how LONG I had had it, about 4 1/2 years, and that's why I was thinking 60k miles on it, but wasn't figuring how few miles I've really driven in the last few years. Yeah so I'm definately never gonna get an ACT metallic or puck disk again. 25k miles and the flywheel had gotten so worn that it was allowing the clutch to rub up against the flywheel bolts, creating a beautiful grinding noise Both the Flywheel and pressure plate surfaces were really badly chewed up. And I know some people will say it's how I drove it, but I had gotten REALLY good and letting this clutch out smooth, no chattering or whatever, to the point that a passenger would never know there wasn't a stock clutch in there. And I definately would never recommend this kind of clutch disk to anyone who didn't absolutely need it (really high hp, lots of racing). Man now that I know how many miles it really had I feel so cheated So can anyone tell me what a good ballpark figure is for longevity from a stock clutch? Lets just say one that's only ever driven regularly, no real abuse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nismo280zEd Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 I would like to clarify before this conversation gets too heated that CF is not a race clutch. Not entended to be run on track cars. It's for street cars that go to the drag strip on Sat night or an autocross every once in a while. Not entended to see constant track use, this is why i think it is a great clutch. Yes i would agree for track use i would not buy a centerforce, but for the street it's a great clutch because of it's slighty stiffer pedal feel, but not like pushing a damn rock onto the floor to shift like some other clutches. That is my .02 -Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 Obviously I'm not the only one having the problem replying to posts Stop repeating yourself man!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 Probably 100K if you're nice to a street clutch on a street car that is driven like a street car Bastaad. I had 50+ on my original clutch when it just wouldn't hold the power anymore because I switched to Mikunis. The clutch disk looked almost new (I switched about a week after putting on the triples). You can probably expect 1/2 that life or less if you are slipping the clutch to spool the turbo all the time. Occasionally won't hurt it too bad. BTW--I just looked up the Nissan Comp clutch and found it rated at 750 kg or 1650 lb. The stock 280 clutch is supposedly 550 lbs. The 50% stronger than stock ACT clutch which holds down my motor would be 775lbs. The "extreme" ACT is 85% stronger, so 1017 lb. So that means the Nissan Comp unit is over twice the clamping force of mine and 60% stronger than the ACT. Couple that with the comp bronze button clutch disk, WOW. That sucker would hold down 550 hp I bet... All of my 510 buddies run the Roadster comp pressure plate. Their pedals are STIFF and they all carry spare throwout forks, and I've seen the forks split on several occasions where the pivot ball is. I'm sure John is right that the Nissan Comp stuff works great on the track, but I sure as hell wouldn't want that in a street car. I wonder if it comes with a left leg only version of the ThighMaster... Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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