Datsun Brakes??

[Phantom]

Well - at least the stock first generation ones do. I roasted mine part way through the first of four sessions out at Texas Motor Speeday last Friday. They are fine for drag racing or daily driving but almost worthless for a road course. I let the brakes cool for nearly an hour and then went back out again and managed to nurse them through the next three 30 minute sessions - just barely. You just can imagine the frustration I was feeling when I was in position time and again to pass a Lotus Esprit and couldn't because, even though I knew I had the power to take him, I knew I didn't have the brakes to slow it back down at the next corner. I was in a pretty heavy-duty group - Ferrari Testarossa 512, Lotus, Panoz GTRA, Z06 'vettes, Cobra's, 350Z, and then the Mustangs, Firebirds, and, of all things, an Altima SER. At least I managed to pass him and a C-4 'vette.

The last sesson I was not only running with th ebad brakes but I had a pasenger and then started running out of gas and fuel starving in the corners - crap! Then I couldn't even keep up with an RX8.

Time for another upgrade

[JMortensen]

Unfortunately I can imagine it.

 

 

Good thing mine is getting fixed up with some JSK stuff!!!

 

Sounds like you had fun though. That's what its all about anyway

[Guest zfan]

Bill,

 

Kind of unerving when the brakes go south on you JK!

 

Hope you had fun out there. Sounds like you are going to spend some money on brake upgrades.

 

Mike

[johnc]

They are fine for drag racing or daily driving but almost worthless for a road course.

 

Here I go again...

 

[soapbox]

 

The stock Datsun brakes DON"T suck! They just take a lot of maintenance and attention to keep them in top shap. The stock brakes depend heavily on the correct pad choice, the correct brake fluid choice, and constant attention to brake bleeding and rear drum adjustment.

 

You can ask the following ITS racers and crew chiefs who have and still do regularly win and beat cars with much better brakes on road racing tracks across the country:

 

Chet Whittle

Keith Thomas

John Williams

Bryan Lampe

Erik Messley

Doug Piner

John Stewart

Javier Guiterrez

Jim Thompson

Dave Rebello

 

If you take your Datsun on a race track (for that matter, any car) you can't just bomb around and then not do any maintenace between sessions. 240Zs in particular needs their brakes bled after every track session. You also need to check the rear drum adjustment between session. This is a very basic level of maintenance.

 

Everyone's got horror stories of braking problems in the 240Z and ALL of those problems are caused by poor maintenace or the wrong pad or brake fluid selection for the conditions. Again, the 240Zs brake DON"T suck. Its generally the driver who ignores the basic maintenece that these cars require when you put them on a race track.

 

[/soapbox]

 

Sorry for the rant.

[love-my-V8-280Z]

I did not know there was a difference in break fluid, if there is which one is best?

Thanks

[Pop N Wood]

They are fine for drag racing or daily driving but almost worthless for a road course.

 

Here I go again...

 

 

Saw that one coming.

 

Good advice as usual.

 

 

 

But, a car the caliber of Phantom's deserve some world class brakes. Definitely can't hurt.

[Phantom]

Well, I knew the heading would get a lively discussion started. In all fairness to the Datsun brakes - they did survive the day, sort of, in spite of the abuse they received.

I had put Porterfield R4S pads on the front about a month before the event but i don't think that was enough time to get them fully set in and that's why the right front was smoking during the first session. They didn't do that the next three. I did go through the brakes before the event, checked and set rotors, pads, shoes, etc., bled the brakes and replaced the fluid with Motorcraft. In retrospect I should have spent the extra money for Motul or AP600. If I had been as good a driver as I could have been I may have gotten away with the Motorcraft but I have a lot to learn and boiled it. Never thought about bleeding the brakes between sessions. I had everything there to do it and definitely could have done it between session 3 & 4 but not the others. We were only sitting about 30 minutes between sessions and I didn't have a pit crew.

Now back the the short comings of the Datsun brakes. Even after everything I had done to them, on the very first session I smoked them. If they had been better I wouldn't have. If I had been better I probably wouldn't have but I need brakes that can make up for my short comings until I can learn and these brakes won't do it. I was coming off turn 4 at TMS at over 100 mph and having to brake down to about 25-30 for a 180° hairpin that had a tire wall backed by concrete on the outside. This was not the time to lose the brakes and therefore I ended up having to brake twice. They had four rows of braking cones - I started before the first row with a hard short stab on the brakes. Then I'd usually have to do it again at the third row to make the corner. By the end of the session it was more like stand on them all the way thorugh all 4 rows of cones. That's how I knew the session was about over because my brakes were about over.

I realize how much braking technique can add to or subtract from brake life. I also know that the guys with ABS have a siginificant advantage here. I squalled the tires many times trying to find the point of maximum braking - which was a little different on every corner of course. Like I said before - I need brakes that can survive a less experienced driver. I could have taken the Lotus Esprit but I would never have gotten the speed back down at the next corner. The car is more powerful than its brakes and that's not a good thing when road racing.

FWIW - The instructors & mecahnics at TMS were all talking about the 280Z28 and it got more attention that the others because of its uniqueness. Next time I go out it will be with better brakes, and probably better tires, and maybe I can impress them with its ability to get around the track too. Don't get me wrong, I actually did OK and managed to pass a few cars but I should have done a lot better.

[johnc]

Keith Thomas (katman) had a great post about setting up stock Datsun brakes for road racing. I thought I had saved it somewhere but I can't find it! Anyway, I'll list what I know to setup the brakes for a road course:

 

PADS PADS PADS

 

Because the stock front rotor is unvented a lot of heat is transferred to the pads. More then, let's say, a Porsche 993. You need pad material that can stand operating temperatures around 1,200 degrees F. This basically precludes any pad that can run on the street. Why? Because pads that can still stay together and produce a good coefficient of friction at 1,200 degrees don't work worth squat when cold. The pads I would recommend (in order) are:

 

Performance Friction 93 (or maybe the new 97 and 01 compounds)

Hawk Blue

Hawk Black

Porterfield R4 (will only last one track day)

 

SHOES

 

Ferodo Green Stuff (sold by Nissan Motorsports and MSA)

 

FLUID

 

Due to all the heat being transferred to the pads, your brake fluid gets very hot. 99% of the brake problems (brakes "going away") you'll see in a Datsun on a road race track is fluid fade. The brake fluid has got so hot that localized boiling occurs which creates air in the lines. This happens to some degree almost every time you're out on the track and using the brakes the way you should. That's why you MUST bleed the brakes after every track session.

 

The only fluids I recommend are:

 

Motul 600 (what I run)

ATE Super Blue

Castrol SRF (the best but stupid expensive)

Ford Truck Heavy Duty (don't buy from a Ford car dealer, buy it from a Ford commercial truck dealer)

 

DRUMS

 

You also need to keep the rear brakes in adjustment and this should be checked after every session. Jack the car up and spin the rear wheel. It should drag on the brake drum. Not a lot and not a little. A nice 3/4" hole drilled in the brake drum face makes brake adjustment easy.

 

And, after you've got all the above right, you'll need to learn how to brake correctly. That's probably the hardest thing to learn about going fast around a road race track.

[JMortensen]

Phantom isn't running ITS. Why should he limit his brakes to ITS standards? ITS guys sometimes have 2 3" ducts running to the front. That kind of stuff gets knocked off very easily on the street.

 

Hawk Blues don't stop for crap on the street. R4 pads are iffy. Blacks sound like they would be OK from your previous descriptions.

 

For a guy who wants to drive to the track, run all day, then drive home, stock brakes are NOT sufficient IMO. Especially (here comes the part that John hates) for guys with big hp. If they can get out of a corner halfway decently, they'll have a lot more speed at the end of the straight than an ITS Z. Then they have to slow down for the next corner.

 

I think that's where they lose out to the ITS Z. The ITS guy may be faster, but he isn't punishing the brakes like the hybridz guy is. The hybridz guys brakes go south in a matter of laps, and the ITS guy can continue to push hard (due to race compound pads, huge ducts, etc).

 

I can think of no better way to prove this theory than drag racing, but I've never heard of an ITS car running the 1/4. Still, in the quarter some of these hybrid guys are going 115, 120 mph. How fast do you honestly think that ITS guy is going to go thru the traps? 95, 100 mph maybe on a good day with a tail wind?

 

And how much more heat has to be dissapated when the brakes are used from 120 vs 100 mph? I'm not an engineer, but I know its a butt load more from 120.

 

Braking correctly is the key, for sure. I don't claim to know how to do it as good as a professional racer, but I have had pros in the car with me, and braking wasn't mentioned as a problem area for me, yet I, like Phantom burned up my brakes in 5 laps the last time I went out. I don't think I'll have that problem with the new ones.

 

Ross C is always saying how you can run street pads at the track session after session with his brakes. That's because they can dissipate the heat, and don't need pads that chew thru rotors in order to function on the 6th lap at 1000*. That's what I'm after. That's what I think all these guys should be after. Brakes that you don't have to worry about every 20 minutes.

 

I too, will get off the soapbox now.

 

Jon

[johnc]

I agree with everything you say Jon. I don't have the stock brakes on my car for the reasons you cite above. What I disagree with is the statement that "Datsun brakes suck."

 

I also think (IMHO) that most HybridZ folks overbuild their brakes. None of us (including myself) run endurance events in our cars. At most, we'll run 10 laps as part of an open track/time trial session. In a 2,400 lb car running a 20 minute session you don't need brakes that are designed to stop a 3,000 lb car running a 3 hour enduro. That's extra capacity that will never get used, so its really just added unsprung weight.

 

But I feel like Don Quixote waving my sword at the Brembo, Stop Tech, Wilwood, Baer, Porsche Big Red brakes marketing juggernaught.

[jt1]

I fully agree with John that a stock system can be set up to perform very well. The ITS guys do some pretty amazing things with the stock setup, but there is a ton of maintenance to a stock system operating at that level of performance.

 

But- Phantom's going faster at the end of the straights (high HP), a lot slower thru the turns (street tires vs. race tires, less optimized chassis setup, less driver experience), and he's probably carrying at least 500# more than an ITS car. That's a lot more energy the brake system has to dissipate, and there's no escaping the laws of physics and thermodynamics.

 

An upgraded brake system will let you concentrate on learning the line and how to drive it without worrying about brake management, eliminate maintenance between sessions, giving you more time to debrief with your instructor, and more time for classroom and learning from more experienced drivers at the track. I think you'll have a lot better time and learn more with an upgraded brake system.

 

[/soapbox]

 

John

[Savage42]

Well, it just goes to show that you'd at least want to go with the vented rotor. When most of the 510 guys go with the Toyota 4x4 setup, they go with the vented and not the solid rotor. I see that's not always the case with the Z guys. You also have to realize that his car is 2800 lbs and with 330 RWHP, his acceleration speeds should be considerably faster than an ITS car, meaning more stress on the brakes. I ran stock ZX stuff w/ R4S pads on my 510 (2400 lbs w/ driver) and could out-brake just about anything on the track and never had any fade problems. The other key is wheel design. Wheels with few hole or little space for air will cook the brakes more quickly than others. It's a fact that some big brakes with R4S pads will work great for the street & autocross duty while living through track days. I do agree with John in some respect, as I hear the same stuff about stock 510 brakes and some of the fastest guys on the track run the OE setup, just have good pads & fluid. I guess the bottom line is that 98% of the Z guys don't run their cars hard enough to warrant spending big money on brakes when there is an easy, cost effective alternative, but it's a personal choice. I'm all about having more than needed, but not like these "rice boys" who have 13" rotors & giant calipers on their 160 HP Hondas.

[Phantom]

Look at all the good information I've gotten with my "Datsun Brakes Suck!" header. I'd hoped that would garner some attention and it did.

A little more feedback from my part:

1) My car, with me in it weighs 3,100 lbs - a veritable battleship compared to an ITS car.

2) I'm running 215/55-16 Kumho Supra 712's - not the greatest track tire and they were new so had full tread depth.

 

To add to the comments already made - I caught and could have passed a Mustang Cobra, an RX8 and the Lotus Esprit - but it would have done me no good as I would have exited the next corner in the wrong straight line. Straight into the gravel!! I had one straight I would run out in 3rd (about 90) and then COAST for about 75 yards rather than nailing 4th for a little more because I didn't have the brakes to bring it back down. Same with the oval sections. I held myself to a comfortable 115 because of the braking problem at the entrance into the infield plus I wanted to extend the brake cooling time. I could easily have moved up the track a bit and run 130+. That would have had me pulling away from the Panoz GTRA and running close with the Ferrari.

The key thing to remember about my car is that it's my daily driver - full interior, nice stereo, air conditioning, spare tire, etc. The 4th session I even added another 200 lbs with a passenger and probably had my best session ever - if I hadn't run my tank too low and started suffering fuel starvation coming out of the corners I might actually have gotten the RX8. Yet another lesson learned.

[JMortensen]

That's extra capacity that will never get used, so its really just added unsprung weight.

 

An upgraded brake system will let you concentrate on learning the line and how to drive it without worrying about brake management, eliminate maintenance between sessions, giving you more time to debrief with your instructor, and more time for classroom and learning from more experienced drivers at the track. I think you'll have a lot better time and learn more with an upgraded brake system.

 

I guess the bottom line is that 98% of the Z guys don't run their cars hard enough to warrant spending big money on brakes when there is an easy, cost effective alternative, but it's a personal choice.

 

All very very very good points. We all need to weigh the pros and cons and come up with our own solutions.

[Savage42]

The key thing to remember about my car is that it's my daily driver - full interior' date=' nice stereo, air conditioning, spare tire, etc. The 4th session I even added another 200 lbs with a passenger and probably had my best session ever - if I hadn't run my tank too low and started suffering fuel starvation coming out of the corners I might actually have gotten the RX8. Yet another lesson learned.[/quote']

 

It's not uncommon for a street car to work better on a road course with a passenger. It's called weight ballast and it often helps to have that weight on the inside of the car in those right hand corners. The added handling will offset the added gross weight of the vehicle and when you have V8 power and tons of torque, you don't even really notice it. Not always the case with the 4 & 6 cylinder cars. 8)

[Afshin]

Great posts by John and Jon.

When I first got my 280zxt, even with the vented front and non vented rear disc, the brakes sucked. Then I did want John recommends, put good pads on , ATE super blue fluid, new stanless steel lines, brembo rotors.. and the brakes became adequate. Nothing to brag about, but they did manage to reliably stop the car.

Wanting more than just OK (why else would I modify any part of the car), I got the JSK front brake set up with the wilwood 4 pot calipers, 12.19" rotor and portefield R4 S pads for both front and back. Now I have brakes worthy of pride. I recently took the car to thunderhill open track event; my cousin and I were sharing my car so it ran two back to back sessions (total of 40 minutes straight) five time in that day and they held up without the least bit of hiccup fade or anything whatsoever (many cars were experienced some fade with single 20 minute sessions).

I also took the car to my first autocross at MSA last month (boy do I have a lot to learn about driving thru cones, John sat in my car as an instructor and can attest to that, BTW,thanks again for all the great tips, I'm officially hooked and have just joined the local SCCA chapter) and again the car was used by two drivers that day so it did a total of 30 runs and the brakes held up beautifully. Off course they feel fantastic and inspire confidence on the highway and every where else. So now I can use quality street pads and get 200 minutes of high speed track time in a day without any worries, fade, excessive wear... and drive home grinning.

So as John pointed out, you can get much out a properly set up stock brake sytem , so do that first before eveluating any true need (as opposed to my "true" need for a larger turbo ) for a upgrade, but especially if you go to the track,

Bigger Brakes are soooo much nicer

[johnc]

I'm officially hooked and have just joined the local SCCA chapter

 

He, he... happens everytime. Start saving for the enclosed trailer and the F350 dually...

[Tim240z]

 

But I feel like Don Quixote waving my sword at the Brembo' date=' Stop Tech, Wilwood, Baer, Porsche Big Red brakes marketing juggernaught.[/quote']

 

Ha Ha Ha ...... I can just absolutely picture it in my mind.....ha ha ha

[Clifton]

With more than 300 hp stock brakes do suck on a road coarse. IT cars don't carry the same speed into the braking point as 300+ rwhp Z, not even close. Even with a strong tail wind . I tried pads and ducting them and they were still marginal. If you are running with Z06's and Viper's and are trying to out brake them, it won't be with stock calipers and rotors, at least not after one lap.

[johnc]

IT cars don't carry the same speed into the braking point as 300+ rwhp Z, not even close.

 

I don't think anyone can make such an absolute statement. Remember, speed at the end of the straight is a COMBINATION of acceleration rate, acceleration time, and exit speed from the previous corner.

 

If ITS car #1 hits the corner apex at 90 mph and V8 Z #2 apexes at 70 mph, car 1 has two advantages at the start. The first is that car 1 is generally able to get on the gas sooner so it has more time to accelerate and car 1 also started the acceleration run from a higher speed. The speed difference at the end of the straight won't be anywhere near as great as most people think 'cuz most folks think in terms of a drag race heads up start.

 

And we can't use the "all things being equal" arguement because I have yet to hear of a V8 (or any hybrid) Z match the ITS lap record at any of the tracks I race on.