Dan Baldwin Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 Say what you will but it boils down to two things... Are you better off now than four years ago??? Utter bullshit reason to vote for W, for a number of reasons (here are a few): 1) All things remaining exactly the same, if you're smart you SHOULD be far better off than you were four years ago. 2) The effects of a President's policies often aren't seen for years after they're instituted 3) I might be only speaking for myself here, but I don't think personal gain, even if it WERE capable of being totally attributed to the President, is nearly enough to justify voting for someone who got us into a needless war under false pretenses, simultaneously stretching our military thin, costing the lives of our soldiers, costing the lives of many innocent Iraqi civilians, costing us $100s of billions of dollars, making us MORE a target for terrorism, inspiring MORE to become terrorists, alienating us from the rest of the free world, yadda yadda yadda, all in the name of a TOTALLY NEEDLESS WAR. Even if I'd made 10s of millions of dollars directly due to W's being president, I STILL wouldn't have voted for the man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaparral2f Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 And as for what other countries think of the USA? Well I say PISS on THEM! Right on Mark BTW, where did that Z car come from? Japan??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy280 Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Hey Mike, thanks for not getting pissed. I wasn't trying to draw lines or throw stones. I understand your situation and I'm sure you understand mine. I'm glad you made it out of poverty, it shows that there is hope for America yet. I don't know what the rest of what you said had to do with my post though(maybe it wasn't directed at me?) Anyways, you mentioned being on welfare and food stamps (government cheese......mmmmm...brings back memories ) and I got to thinking, because I've been there. And I'll bet that those programs probably helped you get to where you are today, along with plenty of your hard work. I know I never would have made it through community college (currently in fifth year and on my way to State and a B.A.) without programs like financial aid and housing assistance, and I work full time. So without pointing fingers, I'll just say that I really, really, really hope that the leadership in this country (cough, cough, Bush, cough, cough, Republican Congress, cough) will take the moral high road in the next few years and see it in their hearts and minds to actually BE like the great Christians that they claim to be. Until then I'll try not to cry like a little biiiaatch , at least not here on the Z forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Dan, I don't appreciate that last comment... My reasons for voting who I voted for are mine... They arn't "Utter Bullshit" and only point to WHY some of us can't discuss politics on this board. For every argument that you make against Bush and the republican party, someone will dig up the counter-point... I'd discussed the war at length and why it was necessary, and the reasons are there... You choose the liberal view, I don't. Thanks for saying mine is UTTER BULLSHIT... I guess anyone who doesn't agree with you gets this kinda treatment??? I'm officially DONE. EDIT*** I'm not done... Just dawned on me, as I was getting up some leaves in the front yard... Mr. Baldwin, You say the answer to the question "Are you better off today than you were four years ago?" is Bullshit... Funny, THE LAST TWO WEEKS of the campaign, the democratic BULLSHIT CANDIDATE asked millians of people in Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio and Wisconsin that same question... Yup... Pretty sure one of our resourceful members here could find those speeches... This is why YOUR arguments WON't Work, Dan... They are politicians... Your vote and mine won't influence their decisions... So yea, I DID VOTE my PERSONAL conscience, because I hold NO FAITH in them doing ANY good for me personally... Sorry, but the last 30 years of politics have taught me to look out for me and mine... I just took YOUR candidates advice... Can't argue that one can you, because Bush couldn't ask that of many people, because HE KNEW that the answer for most was "NO, I'm worse off..." And, uh, Remember NAFTA??? Yea, uhm that was a democrat driven policy... One that, years later have helped impact joblessness in America... That's my final answer... Mike 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil1934 Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 I'm signing off on the non tech board, too. I'll be back to do some trash talking before the SE drags, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy280 Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 not trying to piss anyone off here, but I don't think NAFTA is truly a democratic idea. It was a policy pursued by Clinton, and he was considered to be "breaking with his party" when he did so. Sorry, I'll shut up now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 Crazy, Doesn't work that way... You can't have it both ways... Can't take credit for the republican work done to turn the national economy around prior to Clinton taking office (which he gets 100% credit for and I won't argue for or against that) and then say "NAFTA was a Republican Bill"... It passed under Clinton, therefore it is a part of his legacy. His Legacy... Right along with the stained Dress, Linda Tripp and Monica Luenski! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy280 Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that it was a Clinton policy/legacy (I hear this brought up a lot on shows like "Bulls and Bears" as a reason why businesses loved Clinton) but it's not really a democrat policy. Trust me, I'm not trying to have it both ways (nice use of my own words against me by the way ) because if you look at what dems like Kucinich say about NAFTA, you get the idea. And remember all the NAFTA protests? You know those weren't republicans protesting NAFTA. Oh, damn it, I was trying to stop talking! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKDGabe Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 I'm not gonna touch the political arguments flying around as y'all have your minds made up. However I feel I must say something about the religious claims. I try to follow Christ's teaching's and feel that Crazy280 is wrong. he claims to be a devout Christian, and that he does God's work. That is B.S. I know, I went to sunday school. I know Christian values. I try to live by those values. If he was a moral person, he would make it easier for people on the bottom to work their way up As far as you go there I'd agree. But you imply that the moral thing to do would be to take from the rich so the poor can have more. That falls under the category of theft. Christianity teaches that greed is a sin, and that it is noble to help those in need. Absolutely. But two wrongs don't make a right... And since when is going to WAR a Christian value? War is not forbidden as such... we clearly have the right to self defense. Using God's name to fulfill your own ends is clearly wrong though. And maybe we should have elected a leader who actually gives a crap about the American people. I'm not defending Bush as I dislike him but... like I said in the "Iraq-illegal" thread you can't give people anything and expect them to respect it. The welfare class in this country is pathetic and it's self perpetuating. (Yes, there are exceptions to every rule) I also come from a "humble" background and we could have qualified for gov. aid but we never took it. Our family and friends helped and now that we're back on our feet we help them as they need it. BTW, raising the minimum wage is a very short term solution. <a target="_blank" href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=Business">Business</a>es then have to pay more for labor and thus charge more for the products... how does that help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240Z-DET Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 We seem to have either extreme Conservatism or Liberalism thought processes. So, let me pose this question? After the US was attacked on 9/11, what exactly did we accomplish by attacking Iraq. Yes, I understand that Saddam condoned genocide and was a complete madman, but what did he have to do with the terrorist act of 9/11? Nothing. This war was pre-empted and was used to assume that Irag harbored terrorist fugitives and had WMD. Yes, Saddam should've been dismantled, but Bush took matters into his own hands throwing up the middle finger to the UN. This is Vietnam all over again. The US military should have been assembled to find OBL and destroy Al Queda immediately. Attacking Iraq will probably be the most single costly error of government spending in our history. Does anyone remember when GWB said "...he tried to kill my Daddy!" Well, if that isn't a reason to go to war, then what is? What is so interesting to me is that the US always needed a Political leader, not a spiritual one. What happened to seperation of Church and State? Bush played the masses as a spiritual leader and probably won the election based on that. Do I care for Bush? No. Do I care for Kerry? No. Did I vote. Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 I would like to add CIVILIAN AIRLINERS to the list of WMD's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Baldwin Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 Dan, I don't appreciate that last comment... My reasons for voting who I voted for are mine... They arn't "Utter Bullshit" and only point to WHY some of us can't discuss politics on this board. My humble apologies. I do believe your rationale is flawed IN MY OPINION, for the reasons I gave, but I shouldn't have resorted to hyperbolic schoolyard rhetoric to say so. For every argument that you make against Bush and the republican party, someone will dig up the counter-point... I'd discussed the war at length and why it was necessary, and the reasons are there... You choose the liberal view, I don't. I don't consider myself to be a "liberal", except perhaps in the current context it is used in (meaning anyone critisizing the administration). The word "liberal" is being used ever-increasingly to short-circuit political discourse and REASONING, as 60+% of the nation has been programmed to immediately respond negatively when they hear the word and cease all rational thought. Anyway, I'm frequently seen as a conservative amongst liberals and as a liberal amongst conservatives. I think throwing those terms around willy-nilly (did I really just say that?) almost never results in intelligent thoughtful debate. Mr. Baldwin, You say the answer to the question "Are you better off today than you were four years ago?" is Bullshit... Funny, THE LAST TWO WEEKS of the campaign, the democratic BULLSHIT CANDIDATE asked millians of people in Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio and Wisconsin that same question... Yup... Pretty sure one of our resourceful members here could find those speeches... This does not affect my points made in my post above, which remain valid. That both sides are willing to use the "are you better off now..." in attempt to gain advantage doesn't validate it as a method of choosing a President. I just took YOUR candidates advice... I didn't HAVE a candidate in the election. I had two buffoons, one KNOWN by me to be dangerous to Constitutional liberties here at home and the general well-being of the world at large, and Kerry. Neither was my choice. I wouldn't DREAM of taking the advice of either on whom to vote for at face value. And, uh, Remember NAFTA??? Yea, uhm that was a democrat driven policy... One that, years later have helped impact joblessness in America... I'm not a Democrat or a Republican. I don't think NAFTA was good for anyone living "on the ground" in North America, but the war in Iraq, and the way it was justified, not to mention the lack of any realistic planning, well you know how I feel about that. Then to see memos from Ashcroft practicing up on exonerating the President for any and all forms of torture, to see American citizens held without due process, to see the administration take full advantage of a wounded nation's sense of "patriotism" as an excuse to get into a needless and costly war (congress, including Kerry, are equally to blame here for all-too-eagerly handing over THEIR Constitutional authority to the Pres), well it's just beyond anything I'd have ever expected of a president from either party. The consolidation of power within the Executive Branch is beyond frightening. Do I think it's the End of the World? No, it's just the beginning of the end of Western Civilization and it's ideals. I think we're getting into a region of instability, where the policies of the admin will encourage terrorism, which will JUSTIFY to most the administrations insistence on further reducing civil liberties. We, as a free nation, are screwed. IMO! (hope I'm wrong!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy280 Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 JKDGabe, I respect your beliefs, but we differ in how to acheive Christian goals. I never said "stealing" from the rich is the moral thing to do, I am saying that rich people giving back to the community is the moral thing to do. Taxing is a system in government that is established by the people, enforced by the people, and accepted by the people as a means to create programs that progress humanity. That is the whole purpose of government, to help CIVILIZATION, otherwise we would all be running around in loin cloths killing each other. The key to civilization is that certain things must be sacrificed for the greater good of humanity, and in our society taxes is one of the main ways. But the point is that EVERYONE in America should be afforded the opportunity to make a better life for themselves. Since the upper class ALREADY are living well, and their quality of life will NOT be highly degraded by higher taxes, it seems only fair to set up our tax system that way. The vast majority of civilized nations in the world operate this way. I'd also like to point out that under Republican leadership in the past, and especially now under Bush and the Republican congress, the wealth gap (the financial seperation of the lower and upper classes) HAS GROWN. If Republicans are being moral, shouldn't it SHRINK? In case you don't know, when Bush cuts taxes on the wealthy, that means the government has less money for programs such as social security, healthcare programs, education costs, etc. which means we all have to pay more for them out of pocket. This creates a higher financial burden on the lower classes, since these things represent a higher percentage of their incomes. So in essence, reducing taxes on the wealthy is like stealing from the poor and giving to the rich. And now there are reports that Bush is considering a "flat tax" or even a national sales tax, which are incredibly weighted on the lower classes and benefit ONLY the upper classes. Reminds me of the famous "robber barons" we learned about in history class. Oh, by the way, what you said about the "wellfare class" being pathetic is VERY INSULTING to me, as I was a member of that class. Don't you dare call yourself a Christian and then say things like that. And even if the lower class was "self perpetuating" and thankless, that shouldn't change your drive to help them, as they (we) are part of humankind, and Christ tought people to love all, EVEN YOUR ENEMIES. Now, I'm not saying we should all go and give a group hug to Al Quaida, (screw that!), I'm just saying it sounds like you have a hell of a lot of bitterness and contempt for the so called "welfare class" in this country. This kind of talk is promoted by the Republican party. I have heard people say many times the kinds of things you were saying, that the poor want to just "live on welfare" and take from the rich. In my experiences, the same people who make those criticisms have the impression that the poor are poor because they are lazy, crack smoking criminals. After further talking with these people (the people who criticize welfare) it becomes blatantly obvious that they have no real life experiences with poverty; they don't understand how welfare actually works, and how hard it is to crawl up from the bottom. Or maybe they are just bitter. I don't understand why you think government shouldn't help people by taxing the wealthy greater amounts than the middle and lower classes, and then say you follow the teachings of Christ. Didn't your church ever do a charity drive? And on sundays, when the donation basket comes around, doesn't the church encourage those, who can afford it, to give more? One of the best things you can do as a Christian is become a Missionary. Missionaries are willing to give up a large part of their life to help those in poverty. Now tell me, do the people THEY help "deserve" it? I'm not saying all republicans are wrong, and I would like to point out that Bush has made at least a tiny effort to help by offering more support for religious organizations, and at least he "tried" with No Child Left Behind. But it won't cut it. And I'm not trying to say I'm "holier than thou", or that I'm some perfect angel or anything. I'm just saying we should all do our part, and the next time wealthy folks decide not to help the poor, they should reconsider their faith, or not pretend to be good Christians. And that goes for most other religions, too, because most religions stress helping others in the interest of humanity. And about the minimum wage, so maybe we should just eliminate it? That would REALLY help businesses, and the cost of goods. But then is that MORAL (or Christian for that matter), to pay someone pennies a day for hard work? It doesn't matter that the cost of goods goes slightly down, because the people getting paid in peanuts can't afford to buy anything anyway. Obviously I'm using an extreme example, but it demonstrates the concept. One more thing. When (if) I reach the point that I am making a lot of money, I will have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM with giving more of it back to society to help others reach where I have reached. Maybe we can come to an understanding, but I guess otherwise we will have to agree to disagree, that is what makes this country great. But please don't insult me like that again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 That's a bit flawed... Here's why... We had a surplus of moneys stored in the clinton administration... Which meant the ratio for taxing was to high. This was no different than you or I adjusting our W-2 tax witholdings... President Bush was trying to adjust for that before 9/11 struck. I personally thought it was a dumb move, and that all these $300 and $600 checks being handed out was a bad thing, but like all the other sheeple, I cashed mine and spent it on things I could have done without...I commented way back then that I thought it was a BAD decision to send those checks out... But that was one of his campaign promisses... He kept it. Since the attacks on 9/11, our national economy was crippled. The NY Stock Exchange was closed for days and days and the airlines were grounded for weeks... Not something ANY president, democrat or republican could have predicted... I guess that is what upsets me most with those who are so critical of the president... Everyone seems to forget about WHAT HAPPENED on September 11, 2001 and how it changed the course of our nation. No matter who was at the helm, here we are. Not Bush's fault, although it is SOOOO EASY to look past those that set us on this course. As I've told a couple of you offline, My candidate was not nominated, and I'm NOT a republican, although I have felt compelled to defend President Bush, in the interest of fairness, and keeping facts as they should be, and for his poise and grace during the hardest month of any President, the 30 days following September 11, 2001. Regardless of how funny I think his butchering of the english language is, or how goofy he comes off. My personal belief is that he is sincere in his belief that he is doing good for the country. I really don't care what anyone else thinks, I'm speaking for what I believe, based on my view of Washington and the whitehouse. What I would do if I were Bush right now... I'd get rid of Rumsfeld and Powel. I think both men have steered him wrong and put us on this path. I'd also ditch Ashcroft. I'd Keep Coni Rice, and I'd start looking for a couple of Moderate strongholds to fill the void of the vacancies listed above. I believe Bush has accelerated his war, and made some serious errors, due to the three men listed above, and other key advisors currently on his staff. If he wants to be successful in his next term, I believe these changes are paramount to his success. Mike 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKDGabe Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Crazy280, I appreciate the fact that you're willing to discuss this. I'm sorry you feel insulted, I didn't say you weren't a christian... just that I believe you've misinterpreted the Bible. Thankfully nobody has to be perfect to get to heaven, otherwise I'd be doomed. the upper class ALREADY are living well, and their quality of life will NOT be highly degraded by higher taxes, it seems only fair to set up our tax system that way. Yes, that sounds lovely. Why don't you go to Russia and ask how well that worked? The power to tax comes from control. Land taxes = the gov. owns the land and you rent it... try not paying it and see how long you keep it. Etc. what you said about the "wellfare class" being pathetic is VERY INSULTING to me, as I was a member of that class. Don't you dare call yourself a Christian and then say things like that. I stand by my statement. I could have been part of the "welfare class" but chose not to. I pointed out that there are exceptions... unfortunately the majority is the way I described. You have no room to judge me as you have no idea how I've lived. You go on to say I can't be a Christian as I'm not willing to steal from one class to give to another. I'll answer that when you give me a real answer as to how it's not theft instead of mouthing platitudes. when the donation basket comes around, doesn't the church encourage those, who can afford it, to give more? Yes it does, and it's right to do so. To encourage that is. But to take by force... where did Jesus preach that? A rich man once came to Him and asked what he needed to do to go to heaven. His answer? You lack one thing... give all that you have to the poor and come, follow me. What did the rich man do? He walked off, very sad. Jesus didn't chase him down and force him to... And about the minimum wage, so maybe we should just eliminate it? That would REALLY help businesses, and the cost of goods. But then is that MORAL (or Christian for that matter), to pay someone pennies a day for hard work? It doesn't matter that the cost of goods goes slightly down, because the people getting paid in peanuts can't afford to buy anything anyway. Obviously I'm using an extreme example, but it demonstrates the concept It's easy to produce tearjerking examples to gain sympathy for your argument. In general I'm not in favor of unions but they do have their place. Employers need employees just as much as vice versa. It's a seesaw thing... Unfortunately life isn't fair. You haven't argued with my major point... you can't give people stuff to fix their problems. The welfare system is set up to encourage the same thing that it was meant to fix. It's simply easier to stay on welfare so most people do. I'd could give examples but I really think theres no need. I have to go to work... if you truly want to discuss (not argue... ) this I'll be happy to when I get back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Taxes taxes taxes... Much like the price of fuel we have paid MUCH LESS FOR (When compared to the rest of the world), Taxes are also something we pay less of, when compared to other tax based countries... Schools Libraries Roads Infrastructure Water Resources Sewage Resources Power Grids State Parks Local Parks Local, State, National Governments Police Departments Highway Patrol Sherrifs Departments Free Clinics Public Hospitals Homeless shelters Rescue Squads Fire Departments Local, state and federal prisons Publically funded Nursing homes Mental welfare facilities I'm sure I'm missing a TON of other resources WE as a NATION take for granted. But all the above list are what your and MY taxes go towards. It is real easy to point fingers at our government when you don't look at the BIGGER picture. Example... When you get popped for vandalising public property, it is much like other laws that help govern public behavior... it is geared towards the betterment of the masses, no the few... So when you destroy public property, sure your taxes helped pay for the item, but for the good of the public, your actions warrant penalty... If you don't like the system... I severed an artery last year and could have died... I was very thankful when the local "publically funded" rescue squad came and took me to the hospital... I'll be sure and donate next year, and like this year, I'll continue to pay my taxes. Is our system perfect? Uh, NO. Will our tax base change? Probably not. Will it fluxuate depending on circumstances throughout the years and with who is in office at the time? YES... Will people still piss and moan over it? Yes. Should it bother you? Well it doesn't bother me... But I'm told that I'm one of those rich azzholes! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 I severed an artery last year and could have died... I was very thankful when the local "publically funded" rescue squad came and took me to the hospital... I'll be sure and donate next year, and like this year, I'll continue to pay my taxes. Health insurance didn't pay for that? When I had a 40 mile ambulance ride I had to pay my deductible, but MY health insurance that I paid for covered the ambulance and the emergency treatment I got. The ambulance ride would have been $1200, and I didn't get lights or sirens... My point with taxes is this: You want health care for every citizen, you want cleaner emissions, you want more benefits for people who have been laid off, if you want all of these things, GO AHEAD AND WORK TOWARDS THESE GOALS. Start the Universal Heathcare Fund as a NPO and start taking donations from the 51 million people who agree with you. Start the "Greenhouse gases are really bad so we are giving incentives to people who trade in their Hybridz for Hybrids" movement, or start the "Cobra co-pay assistance fund" or whatever. The vast majority of the social programs that liberals push for can be attained without any gov't interference. Once again, I can't help but think how crazy it is to say "The gov't is F#CKING EVERYTHING UP!!! If only we could give them more of our earnings, then they could run MORE programs for us and then everything would get better." It just doesn't make any sense. If they suck at running businesses, then keep the businesses private, and run them through the "donations" that 1/2 the country voted for and called "taxes." And lets shut down all the businesses that we can agree that they can't run well. Makes perfect sense to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Nope... in my area it is a VOLUNTEER Rescue Squad that relys on public and private funding... I was very happy to have them... But no, my insurance didn't pay a DIME of that ride... It did cover my emergancy room visit. My point in my last two posts is to show opposing views... I kinda get tired of hearing how much everything in this country sucks and how people don't appreciate how good it really is... Could it be better? Sure... Could it be worse? Head south to Mexico City for 6 months and then come tell me how bad we have it. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy280 Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 JKDGabe, I'm always happy to discuss issues like this. I don't want to go on and on right now, so I'll just make some bullet points: 1) When I talked about setting up our tax system, and you compared it to Russia, I was talking about a progressive tax system (what we have now) as opposed to a flat tax (what Republicans are pretty much headed towards). Not communism. And we DO have property tax in America, for example my county pays for much of our services with this tax, and the people continually vote to keep it that way here. And Mikelly brings up a good point that we have incredibly low taxes compared to the rest of the world. 2)When you say I shouldn't judge you as I don't know you, I agree and am sorry if you felt offended. But it is you who are judging me and the entire "welfare class" with your hateful statements. 3)I am still trying to emphasize the fact that our society is VOLUNTARY. Taxes are not theft. The story you mention about Jesus and the rich man is a good example. He CHOSE to walk away. We have a civilization here, and sacrifice is part of that civilization, if you don't like it, you can leave, just as the man in the story did. He decided not to join Christ. No one is forcing you to pay taxes. 4)I'm not trying to gain sympathy for my point. A good person already has sympathy in his heart. The example still holds true. I had a minumum wage job last year, and I had to take up a second job (while attending college fulltime) just to get by. Thank God I was able to recently find a union job (Grocery store ). Now I'm doing a little better. I agree that unions have their place, as they seem to be the only thing keeping the "see-saw" in check, otherwise it would be one-sided and miserable as it was during the industrial era. 5)You are absolutely correct, life isn't fair. But we as human beings, and as Christians/Jews/Muslims/etc, set out to make life as fair as possible out of compassion for one another, and in devotion to our God. That is all I'm asking. Mike, You know I don't blame Bush for the economy crashing, I just blame him for not doing a better job in the wake of it. I also think the surplus was a result of Clinton (and the Republican congress ) doing an excellent job in balancing the budget, along with the "dot com bubble" expanding at the time. And after 9/11 it's fair to say that most of the country was behind the president (he had his highest approval ratings), but then he blew it by pursuing invisible threats instead of capturing the ones responsible for 9/11. Just my oppinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 WAAAY OT, but I had to respond to crazy280: There are a couple of things that no one ever taught me but I'd like to pass on to you, and I'm saying this in the hope that it helps you, not to come off like a patronizing ******* (I'm worried it may come across that way, and that's not the intent). I'm not a senior citizen, I'm only 29, but my life has changed drastically in the last 5 or 6 years as a direct result of these few things that I learned the hard way. Your employment is a contract between you and your employer. It works BOTH ways. Your employer expects work out of you. If you do not perform he can fire you. I expect you already knew this... Here's the part that most people miss: you are not at your employer's mercy. If he doesn't provide the pay, benefits, or atmosphere that you want you can leave and find a better job. If you feel like a victim, find another job. I struggled under this one for the first 6 or 7 years of my employed life. An issue would come up and I'd sit in a confrontational meeting with the boss where they'd be telling me that "I'd better or else" and every time I felt victimized and subjugated. After learning this lesson, I gained leverage with my boss and I could say "this needs to change or I'll be looking for another job". I only ever had to leave one job after that was said, and just letting your employer know that you are aware of the value of your work levels the playing field a lot. Of course it helps a lot when your work has some value. Prove your value then let them know that you know your value. I was a really rebellious kid, rebelling at parents, teachers, pretty much anyone I could. When I got out of school I carried this through to my working life, until about 6 years ago. Everyone complains about the stereotypical crappy boss, and I did too. Finally I was at a job and I was arguing with the president of the company. Not casual argument, but we were in each other's face SCREAMING, and I was going to pack up my stuff and leave when the argument was over. At some point he basically screamed at me "If you don't like the way things are done around here, then change them!!!" and a little light went on above my head... I had come to a realization that the reason we were arguing was because I thought I had to be told what to do, and he thought I was waiting around to be told what to do. Since that day every employer I've worked for has loved me as an employee and I haven't worked anywhere that I didn't get more raises faster than ANY other employee in the company. I always had a strong work ethic but I had nowhere to put my efforts. I'd constantly complain about how my employers were wasting my skills and their money. Once I figured this out everything changed and I went from customer service rep #40 and $6/hr to the guy who does EVERYTHING from fixing the copier to working the phone to helping with the accounting and was raised to $14/hr in about a year and a half. That boss in particular just about shat himself when I borrowed a jack and jackstands and fixed the hydraulic lines on our little forklift. So to recap: some employers are assholes. Don't work for them. If you feel like you need to make a stand and fight for something at work, it is your RIGHT to do so. Let them know what you want, and let them know how important it is, but be prepared to do what you need to do before shooting your mouth off. Don't be adversarial with your boss. Try to work WITH them instead of FOR them, you'll get a lot farther a lot faster, and you'll be a lot happier too. And you won't be thanking God for a Union job... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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