Maybe, Just Maybe, Good Was Done?

[johnc]

http://andiamnotlyingforreal.blogspot.com/2005/01/like-millions-of-iraqis-i-made-long.html

 

You may think that you have felt dumb before, but let me tell you something: until you have stood in front of a man who knows real pain and told him that you are against your country's alleviation of his country's state-sponsored murderous suffering, you have not felt truly, deeply, like a total f***ing moron.

 

I still am no Bush fan, and I know that America got lied to. I know we shouldn't have gone, and I think Rove is as evil as they come. But through all this deception and lying, through all this dismemberment and pain, America has wrought a beautiful, fantastic side effect: joy, freedom and a hope for peace. Does it take lies and misdirection to do this?? Is this what the other side of justice is? I feel like such a whiner and I don't know what to think anymore. Ultimately, in total defiance of my mother and grandmother’s teachings, two wrongs have made a right and my moral compass is tired and busted.

 

I can't tell the difference between the good guys and the bad guys, and I want a clear cut mandate, some lines to believe along. But there aren't any. There's just right and wrong and following your heart of hearts. And for the first time in my life, I can say that I was wrong to be compulsively critical of the current administration without seeking my own truth.

 

http://www.suntimes.com/output/brown/cst-nws-brown01.html

 

Maybe you're like me and have opposed the Iraq war since before the shooting started -- not to the point of joining any peace protests, but at least letting people know where you stood.

 

You didn't change your mind when our troops swept quickly into Baghdad or when you saw the rabble that celebrated the toppling of the Saddam Hussein statue, figuring that little had been accomplished and that the tough job still lay ahead.

 

Despite your misgivings, you didn't demand the troops be brought home immediately afterward, believing the United States must at least try to finish what it started to avoid even greater bloodshed. And while you cheered Saddam's capture, you couldn't help but thinking I-told-you-so in the months that followed as the violence continued to spread and the death toll mounted.

 

By now, you might have even voted against George Bush -- a second time -- to register your disapproval.

 

But after watching Sunday's election in Iraq and seeing the first clear sign that freedom really may mean something to the Iraqi people, you have to be asking yourself: What if it turns out Bush was right, and we were wrong?

 

It's hard to swallow, isn't it?

[innerware]

I think that it is so nice to read things that aren't written by our mass media and come from the average person. Especialy one that doesn't like Bush and has learned something. Now just cause it is written doesn't make it gospel, I know. But it was a good read non-the-less. Thanks for sharing. I too am glad they can vote.

[blueovalz]

Great post John. Both are true to the heart of the matter over there, and the second quote is me all the way. Fortunately (or unfortunately as some would see it), I don't form an opinion of any administration based upon a single event (as drawn out as it may be), but try to look at the entire picture and make a determination, or form an opinion, upon that. So far, I lack the "warm fuzzy" I'd like to feel about my president based on the 30k view.

[Heavy Z]

"On September 4 1967 the New York Times published an upbeat story on presidential elections held by the South Vietnamese puppet regime at the height of the Vietnam war. Under the heading 'US encouraged by Vietnam vote: Officials cite 83% turnout despite Vietcong terror', the paper reported that the Americans had been 'surprised and heartened' by the size of the turnout 'despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting'. A successful election, it went on, 'has long been seen as the keystone in President Johnson's policy of encouraging the growth of constitutional processes in South Vietnam'."

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1403103,00.html

 

I really hope things go better in Iraq, time will tell.

[Guest Phil1934]

There are a few certainties you can take from this election. One is we won't disclose the number of voters, just the percentage our candidate won by. Remember when Condi stated the US had killed or capture 60% of Al-qaida? When pressed on how many that would be, she had to say in the 10's. There hasn't been a moment of truth yet. Remember the story the girl told Congress about soldiers dumping preemies out of incubators? Did anyone state she was the daughter of the Iraqi ambassador and was paid? We are learning most of the good press the White house is getting is coming from White House paid journalists. He'll take his bows tonight and state he removed a dictator who killed over 100,000 of his citizens over 20 years. We did it in 2. But that's another case where we aren't stating numbers.

[Mikelly]

I find that no matter what we do, good or bad, opinions of this administration have been drawn in the sand and will never be reversed.

 

If Troops stumble onto a stockpile of WMD tomorrow, and find BinLadden hiding in the pile, the mass of anti-Bush supporters would only shrug and say "Why couldn't you find them sooner?" or "NIce plant GW. How long you had them squirelled away?"

 

I support our troops. And to a point, I support our government. They are doing some things that on the surface seem "Hinky", until you realize that some of what they are doing is to their benefit for throwing off those abroad who are trying to kill our servicemen and disrupt the birth of democracy in the Middle East. Some of these tactics are certainly geared at saving face and making a president look much better in the spot light, but not all of it.

 

God Bless America, God Bless us all!

Mike

[johnc]

Although it might appear that I made this post as an "I told you so" kind of thing, I really didn't. What I wanted to convey was the idea that the Iraqi election isn't about the US or Bush or Kerry or Rumsfeld or Rice or Vietnam or anything else - its about the Iraqi people finally getting a chance to control their own destiny.

 

Its a realization I came to over the weekend (and that's despite being a supporter of the current administration's policies) and the two posts above kind of reflect that realization (the first more then the second). I really hope, that from this point forward, the Iraqi's take control of their destiny, throw us out, a develop a Constitution enshrining a Democracy, a Republic, a Parliment, or whatever best respresents them as a people.

[auxilary]

Unfortunately, our quasipuppet govt. we're setting up in Iraq will fail... democracy won't work because it's a country whose laws and morals are solely derived from islam. They will not be able to separate church and state (or, mosque and state in this case) from the govt, and ultimately fail

[Mikelly]

I agree with both John and Alex... I hope for their future as a democratic people, but I fully believe when we are done and leave, the same issues will return... They will fall under another ruler, and we can only hope he is a little lighter handed than the ousted monster.

 

Mike

[zdmz]

I have high hopes for Iraq and wish them success as their efforts toward democracy unfold. We live in interesting times and the the birth of a new democracy is very interesting to watch. Our country went through this process a couple hundred years ago, but we did not have anyone to guide us through the work. Wonder if the outside help we are giving Irag will help or hurt in the long run?????

I also wish the US citizens could be more cohesive and supportive of what our country does. It is a great privilage to be able to have a disenting view, but it seems too often the disent is because of political viewpoints and which party is in power rather than what is a good or bad policy.

[JKDGabe]

Setting up a "democracy" over there is like painting over rust. It may look good for a short time but it has no long term positive effect. Not that I'm in favor of democracy anyway but that's a whole different story.

 

Our country went through this process a couple hundred years ago, but we did not have anyone to guide us through the work. Wonder if the outside help we are giving Irag will help or hurt in the long run?????

 

The founders were brilliant men who had some amazing ideas but more importantly the fledgling nation itself was capable of self governance due to their religious convictions. That was what enabled them to throw off the rule of GB and establish their own form of government. I do not believe that freedom can be given, only taken.

 

I also wish the US citizens could be more cohesive and supportive of what our country does.

 

When the country does what is right I'll support it, when it does wrong I'll oppose. "My country wrong or right" is the kind of attitude that enabled Hitler. No doubt there were plenty of nice Nazi's who simply followed orders.

I'm not attacking anybody, don't take it personally.

[Moridin]

This was something I learned from a few political science classes (international relations and comperative politics): It is extremely difficult to force anyone (or any culture) into democracy. They will find it when they want to. Maybe our current administration moved it along, but we will soon find out if the majority really wanted democracy or not.

[johnc]

It is extremely difficult to force anyone (or any culture) into democracy. They will find it when they want to.

 

I think your PolySci teachers have it wrong. That sentence should read, "It is extremely difficult to force any tyranny, dictatorship, oligarchy, etc. into democracy. They will fight it even when the people want it."

 

When the people of a country are given a choice, they have ALWAYS chosen a representative form of government, whether its a Democratic Republic, a pure Democracy, a Parlimentatrian form of Democracy, a representative Socialist form, or whatever. I can't think of one country where the people have freely chosen a tyrannical form of government.

[zdmz]

JKDGabe - good post.

Maybe the Founders of the US were so unique that they are the only ones in history that could have formed a good government, maybe they were only ones that had religious convictions. I am glad they were so dedicated and able in what they did, but I hope they were not the only ones that could do it.

I suppose an argument could be made that the US Constitution was also painting over rust since many of its ideas came from very old ideas. I also suppose that one could argue that our paint is faded and rust is begining to show again - but thank God that we have had the opportunity do develope this country. Does Iraq have anyone with the ability to paint over rust and make it last? I guess we will see. At least they now have the opportunity, democracy or not, it is their choice.

 

quote:

 

"When the country does what is right I'll support it, when it does wrong I'll oppose."

 

 

Thank you for that statement. That is exactly what I was trying to point out. It sounds like you look at the issue, think about it, study it based on the merits etc.. then make a decision. That is how it should be done. But, as I was trying to say, all too often disent (and support) is based on political loyalties. Also,there can be a lot said about the way the disenting is done.

 

No attempt was being made to try and be Hitler like. (no offense taken by the way).

 

One last point on the idea of freedom being taken not given. I am not that good at history but was Germany given freedom, or did it take it, after WWII? Same for Japan and many other countries? Are we giving Iraq freedom or are we helping them take it??? This is an honest question - not trying to be sacrastic.

Sorry for the long post.

[johnc]

Maybe the Founders of the US were so unique that they are the only ones in history that could have formed a good government,

 

Not true! The UK, France, Australia, India, South Africa, etc. all have representative forms of governmment and all are "good" for their particular people. What makes them good is that there are formal processes that allow the people to change their government and their representation.

 

No country has a government like ours and none every will. Forcing a US style Democratic Republic on a country is bad. It won't work. And that's NOT what we are doing in Iraq (despite what a lot of folks assert). The Iraqis are going to write their own Constitution and develop a type of representative government that they feel is appropriate for them.

[wheelman]

I have to agree with Johnc that ours is not the only country that has been able to form a representative government. Ours wasn’t even the first, in fact ours is loosely based on a combination of a Greek democracy and a Roman republic. But these aren’t the features that have made it work and it wasn’t the founders either, it’s all of us. Every 2 years we form a new government and we’ve had many crisis over the years that provided opportunities to throw it all away: The civil war, WWI, WWII, 911, The cold war, the great depression, and there were probably others, but at each of these cross-roads in history we had the chance to give total control to the government so we would have security but we didn’t. We value our freedoms too much to throw them away because of a temporary condition. I believe the Iraqi people are just like us and when given a chance to be free they will take it and defend it.

 

 

As for the religious aspects, their laws are not based on Islam and never have been. Sadam is a luke warm Muslim at best and didn’t let the Imams tell him what to do. He belongs to the Sunni sect which are much more liberal and progressive than the Shiites. The Shiites may end up with the largest group in the government but they won’t be the only group, they will be force to cooperate with others, and they still have a constitution to write, who knows maybe they’ll actually put a separation of church and state into it.

 

 

Isn’t history in the making entertaining to watch???

 

Wheelman

[johnc]

If anyone is interested in the process involved in the creation of the US Constitution, I strongly recommend The Great Rehearsal by Carl Van Doren.

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0313234922/qid=1107461174/sr=2-2/ref=pd_ka_b_2_2/104-9010680-7440702

 

I just finished reading it again and the uncertainty, fears, etc. that is currently expressed about Iraq's fledgling democracy existed in the US in 1787. What Iraq is going through is similar to what our country went through (including some of violence) 218 years ago.

[Pop N Wood]

Have to disagree with the naysayers. Iraqi has a highly educated populus and enough "industry" (i.e. money) to be successful. They undoubtably will not emulate us in every sense of the word, but I think they have a very good chance of making it. Contrary to popluar US opinion they are not some uncultured third world country.

 

I suppose there are quite a few outside sources that would love to see Iraq fail just to get even with us. But that is why we will roll into Iran to take the heat off Iraq....

 

 

 

Just joking folks.

 

 

Also I consider most of our forefathers to be whoremongering slave owners. People try to make way too much of their "Christian" roots. IMO one of the absolute smartest things the boys did was to try and separate church and state.

[johnc]

Also I consider most of our forefathers to be whoremongering slave owners.

 

Then you need to read the book I referenced above because you're mistaken in many ways.

[Heavy Z]

The founding fathers also had the glorious revolution and magna carta to draw upon, and were heavily invested in the thinking that sprang from the enlightenment. It was a process that took hundreds of years to evolve from within, not from an external, and certainly not in 3 years.

 

Let's also work to be consistent. For example, "general" Musharraf was deplored for overthrowing the democratically elected government in Pakistan, until he said he'd play ball with our invasion of Afghanistan. Since then his title has been magically transformed to "president" here in the US. Are we up in arms over this democratic tragedy? Of course we aren't, but would be if we consistently valued what we seem determined to bring to Iraq. Selective memory is problem these days, I guess it's a shame not everyone around the world is so forgetful...