johnc Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=1&c=y Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2126 Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 Interesting post John! Are these claims not just another case of finger-pointers' flaring up? The typical....sensationalism based on reaction to a situation based on ZERO factual information. Sad, but isn't this the credo of the news media and their supporters now days. I should bite my tongue here, but.......sheep will follow just about any sheppard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest austinlt1 Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and I don't remember where I heard this from..... but flight 93 was brought down by an F-16. The terrorists had destroyed radios and the transponder, so the pilots got no response. I believe the calls from peoples cell phones were diregarded because they couldn't be believed. I'm just curious why that got "hushed up". As for the rest of the claims I don't believe them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tony78_280z Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 Cockpit recordings indicate the passengers on United Airlines Flight 93 teamed up to attack their hijackers, forcing down the plane near Shanksville, in southwestern Pennsylvania.From what I heard, one of those passengers on this plane was a Judo champion. You take a few guys in a tight close quarters fight with a Judo guy, you are screwed. With or without box cutters, my money would definatly be on the trainded martial artist champion. (Judo is close quarters grappeling. Based upon Juijitus, it would include not only holds and pins but arm/leg/neck breaking techniques having trained Aikido I know what these techniques can do.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted February 15, 2005 Author Share Posted February 15, 2005 but flight 93 was brought down by an F-16. Read the link. This BS conspiracy theory has been debunked repeatedly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 The thing that really gets me is.... the skepticism with which most people react with to skepticism. If someone even suggests possible alternate views on what may have happened (in any similiar type of situation, not just 9/11), people look at them as conspiracy theorists, nuts, or in general, just plain stupid. Me, I take everything I hear with a grain of salt. I personally believe that the original, and generally accepted version of what happened is the most likely and most believable, but have heard much of the 'conspiracy theories' and have found many of them to be interesting at the least, and some, not all that farfetched. Seems many people aren't nearly as open minded.... None of us really knows what EXACTLY happened, who of us was there? And chances are, most of us never will. The point is, you ought not to regard someone as stupid for doing what is the most intelligent thing you really can do in any situation, and that is, to question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tony78_280z Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 If you wanted the best conspiracy theory how about the one where the US government trained and equiped the terrorists and allowed them within the US borders to begin with. Oh wait, that did happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhadman Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 without conspiracies some people wouldn't even have a life: I agree with the grain of salt tactic. On a side note: In the AF we used to fly missions (post 9-11) all over the US 'guarding' potential 'targets' (Superbowl's, G8 summits, Presidential vacations...etc.). I can't tell you how many times we were asked (even by AF personell) if we ever shot any airliners down. This rumor/speculation/whatever has been going around for a long time... [sigh]. You would be surprised, however, at how many commercial/private pilots would forget to change (or check) thier transponder codes... even after 9/11. Silly guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest comeandzpa Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 The site where flight 93 went down is about 30 minutes from my house, so I have heard endless reports on everything. Honestly, I just can't believe that the plane was shot out of the air. Why is it so hard to believe that a group of average, middle-class americans decided to do something for their country and take that plane to the ground where it wouldn't do significant damage to anybody but themselves? I have friends with lake houses at Indian Lake (see the photo in the article John posted). They have never seen body parts floating in the lake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 Not to mention the fact that upon reconstruction of the fuselage there was no sign of supposed impact damage from artillery or explosive munitions. the fighters that were scrambled were to far away when the plane made impact... but nevermind facts... fiction is SOOOO much more exciting. Bottom line is people want to believe anything BUT the truth. There are bad people in the world that hate America because we are AMORICA... We have the best of everything... We are the ugly, outspoken Americans who supposedly don't help other countries in times of need (Like the latest Tsunami) and we are viewed as the agressors in the world... I say let the world survive without our intervention... Pull up stakes, send the troops home, close our borders, do more for our own, let the rest fend for themselves... It is after all, their world, and we are just a part of it... I'm sure they would be fine... Sorry, got off topic... Yes, consipracy theories are such big fun... Like the lochness monster, UFOs, Bigfoot, and any number of fables being told! I refer to it as the housewive's syndrome. Fiction is, after all more exciting than some people's realities... The rest of us have lives... I guess tha's why we don't buy into such tails and theories... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted February 15, 2005 Author Share Posted February 15, 2005 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13059-2004Oct6.html Conspiracy theories are common after traumatic events. Michael Barkun, a political scientist at Syracuse University who has written books on the culture of conspiracies, said contradictory and inconclusive eyewitness accounts often leave room for different interpretations of events. "Conspiracy theories are one way to make sense of what happened and regain a sense of control," Barkun said. "Of course, they're usually wrong, but they're psychologically reassuring. Because what they say is that everything is connected, nothing happens by accident, and that there is some kind of order in the world, even if it's produced by evil forces. I think psychologically, it's in a way consoling to a lot of people." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 you know, not all 'conspiracy theories' end up being total BS... you guys do know this right? There have been many times throughout history where someones consipiracy theory ended up being the real deal. Some of them seemed really improbable too, I'm sure. I bet the critics were all over the people who had the theories then, too, until they were proven right... You just never really know what is true and what isn't if you weren't there to see for yourself. The real problem here is not what people believe, it's that people love to try to make everyone else believe what they themselves want to believe... we should all just keep it all to ourselves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted February 16, 2005 Author Share Posted February 16, 2005 By default, all conspiracy theories are BS. http://www.strategypage.com/onpoint/articles/2005216.asp But belief in grand political and historical conspiracies is not a new phenomenon. Three hundred years ago, Europe's pub-crawlers thrilled to tales of conspiracies run by Freemasons, Jesuits, Jewish bankers and French Protestants. Religion shaped that era's explanatory conspiracies, rather than technology, space aliens or intense French jealousy of American success. Some individuals cannot or will not face difficult, history-altering facts. Conspiracy theories provide them with a mind-numbing -- if morally degrading -- antidote for the difficult. Blaming "Them" snuffs complexity and the responsibility for making tough choices. But there's more at stake than individual psyches seeking solace in updated tales of sea monsters and witches. Mass acceptance of conspiratorial allegations can lead to holocausts. This is conspiracy theory as agitprop, to delude so tyrants can gain or retain control. Hitler thrived on racist theories. Marx sold a grand conspiracy theory --apparently still treasured by many lefty academicians -- that featured "class warfare" as the engine of history. Blind belief in Hitler's and Marx's conspiracy theories produced the 20th century's two greatest evils, Nazism and communism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy280 Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 I do not believe in any of the 9/11 conspiracy theories, but I definitely have to agree with Bastaad. I'll bet my left nut that if the evidence never got out about Nixon and Watergate, that most people would have just brushed it off as a "conspiracy theory". There are so many examples of this in history. "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" truer words have never been spoken. We are all only human, with good AND bad capabilities in us. When humans are in positions of power, sometimes they can make bad decisions, and its no surprise to me. Most people just don't want to hear "conspiracy theories" about the government because they just trust too much in the government, and it would shatter their little secure feeling. Like all of the "war for oil" theories. I don't necessarily buy into them, but I don't find it TOO far fetched that people who are in extreme positions of power (and who got that way through cut-throat business/politics) would make horrible decisions in order to gain more power/money, or keep control of the power/money they already have. I say question anything you read/hear/see on tv (especially if its coming from a politician). And always question authority- its what our founding father's wanted- what could be more American? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 By default' date=' all conspiracy theories are BS. http://www.strategypage.com/onpoint/articles/2005216.asp[/quote'] That's a very closeminded way to look at things... well hey if you like to go thru life with your eyes closed and your hands over your ears..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKDGabe Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 By default, all conspiracy theories are BS. "If you don't believe in conspiracy theories, you've never been married." My Dad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 That's a very closeminded way to look at things... well hey if you like to go thru life with your eyes closed and your hands over your ears..... Being open-minded is not all it's cracked up to be. The best place to be is somewhere in the middle, so that you don't spend all of your time running down ridiculous leads only to find out that they weren't right to begin with. My biggest open-minded pet peeve: "ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE." My usual response: "No, it isn't. Come back when you can stick a full size grand piano up your butt, then we'll talk... until then it's impossible." The second biggest: "DON'T ASSUME ANYTHING." How does a person know ANYTHING if they don't assume? Because all of the knowledge that you would ever gain would have to be constantly tested for accuracy. Should we need to test reality in every way every time we wake up, just to make sure that nothing has changed since yesterday, or can we make that assumption. Should you not assume that cat poo isn't good to eat?I'm willing to make this assumption, even though I may not have tested a particular steaming pile of cat poo. I'm not totally closed-minded, but a good dose of skepticism is in order. One of the best tests for me is to look at the other things that the conspiracy therorists are saying. If all of their other beliefs are screwy, then there is a good chance... not a 100% assurance... but a good chance that the one you think has an outside chance of plausibility is most likely BS too. The problem is that a conspiracy theory doesn't gain any traction unless it has a believable element to it. Conspiracy theorists are the sophists of the modern era. They can take any argument and make it believable. That is why skepticism is healthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted February 21, 2005 Author Share Posted February 21, 2005 Why 99.99% of all conspiracy theories are BS by default: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor Ockham's Razor has become a basic perspective for those who follow the scientific method. It is important to note that it is a heuristic argument that does not necessarily give correct answers; it is a loose guide to choosing the scientific hypothesis which (currently) contains the least number of unproven assumptions. Often, several hypotheses are equally "simple" and Ockham's Razor does not express any preference in such cases. For example, after a storm you notice that a tree has fallen. Based on the evidence of "a storm" and "a fallen tree" a reasonable hypothesis would be that "the storm blew down the tree" -- a hypothesis that requires only one assumption -- that it was, in fact, a strong wind that knocked over the tree, rather than a meteor or an elephant. The hypothesis that "the tree was knocked over by marauding 200 meter tall space aliens" requires several additional assumptions (concerning the very existence of aliens, their ability and desire to travel interstellar distances and the alien biology that allows them to be 200 meters tall in terrestrial gravity) and is therefore less preferable. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy280 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 It is not an unproven assumption that powerful people are capable of (and have motive to do) bad things. And often this is the simplest explanation. For example: I'm more likely to believe that there is profit for the energy and defense industries (who put our current administration in office) in invading Iraq, rather than to believe it had anything to do with protecting us after 9/11, when there was no real link between Al Quaida and Sadaam, and no WMD's in Iraq. Especially after the admin's justification for war keeps changing. It's a more simple explanation However, it would be a real stretch of the mind to think that the administration setup the whole 9/11 catastrophe, etc. That would be far less simple, and likewise far less believable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 For example: I'm more likely to believe that there is profit for the energy and defense industries (who put our current administration in office) in invading Iraq, rather than to believe it had anything to do with protecting us after 9/11, ..... Seen the latest defense budget? Cutting all types of acquisition programs to shift more money to replacing what is being torn up and blown up in Iraq. Gonna shake the status quo. I will sure be happy when we start seeing those "profits" rather than just war dead, record oil prices and budget deficits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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