Jolane Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 I have been looking for information on building a fuel cell, and came across this: http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kft.html Anybody try this yet? Seems like it could be made to fit nicely without cutting out the spare tire well. Anyone have any additional information about baffling a fuel tank? Do you need baffles if using the foam? I have searched and found surge tanks, etc... I want to use aluminum (5052, .093 probably) for my EFI tank. Thanks, Joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datsunan Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 I don't know how to do baffles that work but if you going through the trouble to build your own tank you will defenitly want to reseach what it takes to prevent your pump from starving under break or accel. Many of us have bought fuel cells that have a sump in them but still starve under lateral g's in many directions. It is very anouying and if your boosting and it happens it could be very detrimental to your internals. And I'm not talking about your bowels! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolane Posted March 4, 2005 Author Share Posted March 4, 2005 Thanks Datsunan, I have certainly looked around a lot for ideas on baffling. Although I am not boosting (SBC), I don't want to starve the pump. One method that seems common is trap doors. This doesn't seem to the be fool proof though, since the fuel needs to "hit" the door to enter. Maybe a trip to the JY to look at manufacturers baffling is required. I have seen what a 300ZX Turbo ('85) tank used, it was a spiral of plastic for baffling. How effective this is, I don't know. Probably better than nothing. It seems like the absolute best solution is to use a colapsible bladder that is unvented, so it never has air in it, and shrinks as the fuel is used. This will most likely not be how I go though, since I don't own a plastic/rubber company that can do this. Are you using foam in your fuel tank/cell? What kind of sump do you have that is insufficient? Thanks, Joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 Do a search on Tim240Z's posting about surge tanks. Tim made a very simple one that goes in the engine compartment. A regular carb type fuel pump goes in the tank to feed the surge tank, then the FI pump sucks off the surge tank to feed the engine. Trap doors in a fiberglass tank is getting complicated IMO. Not sure why you would want to use fiberglass when there are so many metal tank options available. I have never done fiberglass work, so I would worry about stress cracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolane Posted March 4, 2005 Author Share Posted March 4, 2005 Pop n Wood, I came by Tim'z surge tank, the bong looking thing as someone mentioned in that thread. I would like to use that as a last resort though for a couple reasons. First, I need a new tank anyways. The one I have is dented pretty good. I also need the additional baffling anyways for my EFI conversion. Finally, because mine will be a street car, I really need a spare tire, and one of my big goals is to keep some sort of spare tire well (it may end up being shallower, perhaps to fit a narrower spare). So, this kind of rules out modifying the existing tank. So if I am going to builb one anyways, why not baffle it correctly. As for the fiberglass, I have no intention (right now anyways) of using Fiberglass. I just thought it was very curious, and never knew fiberglass could even be used, much less in aircraft! I would worry that, much like a fiberglass air dam breaks when you hit a parking block, so would a fiberglass gas tank! Thanks for the surge tank suggestion. I would much rather just build the tank correctly to begin with (I am not implying that the surge tank is a bad idea or that others who have surge tanks did not build a correct gas tank). I would rather only use one pump, have many less connections, take up less space, etc... Joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datsunan Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 My tank is the same as Tims. If you notice the sump is angled, this allows the gas to move foward very easy. I would make a sump square with no slope this would help alot. Yes my tank has foam and it does not stop it from starving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolane Posted March 5, 2005 Author Share Posted March 5, 2005 Thanks Datsunan! I was afraid that the foam was not enough. I noticed that ATL uses a baffled area with the foam. I can see how a square sump would be better do to forward slooshing. I wonder though, does the tank really need a sump area, or just a baffled area? A sump area gives a place for the fuel to collect, but the fuel needs to get in that area first. A baffled area just slows the fuel movement down... I would really like a "flat bottom" without a sump sticking out. Joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 I "baffled" (and I use that term loosely) my tank by welding walls (about 5" high) up on one side of the tank at the lowest part of the tank. This created a tall cube somewhat that surrounded the pick-up (or drain) for the gas pump. At several points along the floor of the walls, where they made contact with the floor of the tank, I cut very small notches 1/8" diameter or so that would allow gas to flow through the holes slowly. The rate at which the holes passed gas was enough to always keep this "cube" at the same level as the rest of the tank with the engine at full load. Thus if I got down to the point where the fuel was down pretty low, the "cube" would still hold enough fuel as fuel was running out of it (slowly, and while in a turn that pulled gas away from the "cube", but never drain completely by the time I finished a long sweeping turn. Then the gas would return back to run slowly into the cube and fill it back up. I don't have fuel injection, so I cannot tell how effective this is as the carb bowls act as a surge tank. As best as I could tell, the foam has less impact at preventing fuel run-off than the small holes do. I poured fuel through a piece of foam, it it did not do much to slow it down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolane Posted March 5, 2005 Author Share Posted March 5, 2005 Excellent Feedback Terry! Thank you very much. I was very curious about the foam. If it does such a good job at baffling, how does the fuel drain out. Sounds like you answered the question. I started (designing in SolidWorks really) by trying to baffle much as you described. It seems like it should work well for EFI. My concern though was refilling the walled area. If the car was to be in a turn for a decent amount of time, will the walled area become completely drained? I don't know. I guess that is where the flappers come in. I was really hoping to find more information about aircraft tank baffling. I assume they really need good baffling in their tanks. What I came across though is Racetronix. They seem to be a popular company for LS1 and C5 fuel tanks. They have a good decription on how the plastic tanked F-body Camaro's fuel pickup works. Ends up, a lot (if not all) late model GM's use this type of system. I would love to get my hands on the pickup assembly to either use as is or modify to fit my tank. They don't even baffle the tanks. Does anyone have any information on the Mustang tanks? Maybe Ford's method would be better/easier/? Thanks Again, Joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
74_5.0L_Z Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 I too am interested in this subject. I currently have the RCI polyurethane cell (16 gallons), and unless I keep it nearly full, I have fuel starvation problems. Several ideas have occured to me: First, simply replace the "cheap" RCI cell with a good ATL of Fuel safe unit that was designed for road racing. ($500 - $1000) Second, modify my current cell to a accept ATLs "Black Box" sump and pump combination. (~400.00). Design and build my own tank (aluminum) that has walls similar to those that Terry described (~400.00 in materials and labor). Jolane had the following concern: "My concern though was refilling the walled area. If the car was to be in a turn for a decent amount of time, will the walled area become completely drained?" Most fuel injection systems use a pump that flows more fuel than the engine uses. The extra fuel is returned to the fuel tank. This fuel can be directed into the boxed area to help keep it replenished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 On Jim McNemar's car, we just installed and plumbed in a Fuel Safe fuel cell that is specifically designed for fuel injection use. This system has the baffles and intank sump system similar to the ATL... I've got the Summit racing Red fuel cell setup ($169), which is very similar to the Fuel Safe systems, and this ATL black box WILL be purchased for my setup since I was looking for alternative solutions to the external setup Tim has... This ATL unit COMES WITH a 100PSI fuel pump... So for the $389 price, you are also getting a REALLY NICE pump and fittings! I'm impressed! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datsunan Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 Hey Mike let us know when you get that tank in and if it works. I'd sell my POS to get that one. When are you going to be getting it? Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 I was looking for alternative solutions to the external setup Tim has... Could always build a tank with Tim's bong built in or attached to the side. Has the disadvantage of two fuel pumps, but it should be absolutely bulletproof at preventing sucking air. No amount of baffles or trap doors can say that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 I'll call ati this week and get the dimensions straight and then order it.. the cell is in my car already, so I just need to plumb it and make some tubing to reach the filler neck on the factory filler, from the 45 Degree neck I have for the setup! I'll keep you guys posted. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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