Italian Fishyness?

[Guest Phil1934]

This might be fun. Let's look at some with 90% Muslim population. Chief in terrorism, Libya. Look at the speeches. Khadafi didn't want to kill the infidels. His taget was the imperialists. Iran, we supported the Shah in exchange for oil deals. Iraq, we fought over Kuwait. Why they chose to invade at that time might have had something to do with Kuwait angle drilling under Iraq to steal its oil. Others would be Algeria, Bahrain, Egypt, Guinea, Indonesia, Jordan, Kuwait, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Niger, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Somalia, Turkey, Tunisia, Yemen, and UAE. You notice we have no trouble from the African Muslim countries. They have little resources so we didn't meddle. If 1/2 of the world wants to kill us just because of who we are, that's a pretty bleak picture of the future. That's not something we can change. If they want to terrorize us because of our economic policies, that is something we can change.

[JMortensen]

You notice we have no trouble from the African Muslim countries. They have little resources so we didn't meddle. If 1/2 of the world wants to kill us just because of who we are, that's a pretty bleak picture of the future. That's not something we can change. If they want to terrorize us because of our economic policies, that is something we can change.

BS again Phil!!! I suppose that you haven't heard the stories of African children with polio because they thought the vaccine was a US plot to spread AIDS or make them sterile:http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/Features/0,,2-11-37_1481952,00.html Yeah, those African Muslims love us...

 

On a funnier note, you ever seen http://www.ebolamonkeyman.com? I know you won't appreciate the humor (since it's funny) but when the Nigerian scammers figure out that they've been caught they almost always start spewing some crap about Allah smiting us, etc. You say "They have little resources so we didn't meddle." You got that exactly wrong. It's "They have little resources WITH WHICH to meddle."

 

Some extremist Muslims want to kill us for who we are. Bush says pretty lamely "It's because they hate freedom." That is just a lame statement, and it should be "because they associate the evils in a free society with the death of their religion and culture, and are trained from a very young age to counter this threat with violence and terrorism." Since we turned and ran in the 80's and 90's in the face of terrorism, they figure this will work. Not any more.

[Michael]

Here’s something to ponder...

 

Western Europe fought crusades against the Middle-Eastern Muslim world; America didn’t.

 

Western Europe colonized Africa, the Middle East, and most of Asia – America didn’t.

 

Western Europe redrew the map of the Middle East when the Ottoman Empire collapsed in 1918 – thus creating most of the modern Middle Eastern nation-states with the consequent state structure that offends tribal sensibilities so highly valued in the Middle East.

 

Western Europe, even by modern American opinion, is morally and socially more lax (or more tolerant, if you prefer) than America – and hence, one would think, of greater threat to the “values†of fundamentalist Islam.

 

It seems to me that Western Europe – and not the USA – is the greater antagonist to fundamentalist Islam, in terms of culture, lifestyle, values, tradition and direct influence.

 

So if "they hate us for our values/freedom/lifestyle", why is fundamentalist Islimic hatred directed principally toward the USA???

[Guest Phil1934]

That they refuse to take the polio vaccine is a sign they fear we hate them, not that they hate us.

[tannji]

OK, not to offend anyone anymore than I probably already have in the past.... = ) but saying that Muslims or Muslim countries hate us generally, or hate us because we are a threat to their religeon or culture, is stereotyping and simplistic.

 

Most of the HATE come from a minority, and is educated into them by an even smaller minority. It is no different than the extreme prejudice that we stereotypically associate with the deep south in our own country.

 

The Muslim faith has some leanings against other cultures, true. But the extreme teachings come from the few, and are most attractive to the uneducated and economically deprived. They have an audience there that has very few competing choices.

 

There are general issues that generally inspire distaste... we dont like religion-based government, or suppression based on caste or sex..... they dont like "loose" morals, eating of unclean meats, and our social freedoms that they interpret as dangerous to spiritual and moral core values.

 

It is the extremist minority, the militaristic fundalmentalists that turn this into a cause for hate and terrorism. There is an element that has had a large portion of the power and influence there for centuries, and their power and influence is based on the conditions of general uneducation, lack of opportunity, cultural unease, and distrust of the western world. The distrust is well-founded.... the countries with the ability to project power and policy have meddled there for the past 800 years.... so it doesnt take too much of a faux pas by Bush or anyone else to justify the preachings of the extremists there, and win another generation of converts to the violent fundalmentalist cause.

 

Unfortunately... we are historically weak in understanding and interacting with foreign closed cultures.... and then you have the oil card. We are in the catch 22 of being in the position of being best able to coerce or influence, but at the same time, generally being the country with the poorest understanding of how to do it effectively outside our own country and culture.

 

Unfortunately, our best weapon is not so much democracy as it is education and commerce. Get them to value the same things we do, free trade, profits, elevated life-styles... and things like greed, keeping up with the Jones, and creature comforts etc.. will generally bring them closer to us and tend to discourage some of the major clashes, as they are indeed based on culure.

 

But there is the rub.... the influence peddlers and the fundamentalists are resisting that cultural exchange with all their might.... and so a process that was already going to take generations is largely stymied. If ya can't win with economics and lifestyle, you are back to democracy as a core value that needs to be projected. We are projecting and selling democracy in the only manner that it will sell over there... to the repressed masses who MIGHT want it and MIGHT remember who helped them get it in the future.... and that places us in the position of having to compromise our values and tastes, in order to have anything remotely similar to allies in the region.

 

Co-existing with the Middle East has never been a picnic, nor can it be done according to some smarmy sunday school teacher's golden rule. We are the enemy to a large number of people over there, because they have been taught that we are, and we have done very little to show that we aren't. The power-base over there needs a vast, mysterious, threatening, and all-powerful enemy to sell their teachings, and we fit the bill perfectly. In fact, you could make an arguement that the single greatest advancement in mid-east/western interaction has been the internet and satellite TV.... because it sells a far truer message than our politicians are capable of. The younger generation will be more moderate and open-minded, just as they are here... leaving progress dependant on the commodity we have the least of.... not oil, but time.

[JMortensen]

So if "they hate us for our values/freedom/lifestyle", why is fundamentalist Islimic hatred directed principally toward the USA???

This one is answered by tannji:

The power-base over there needs a vast, mysterious, threatening, and all-powerful enemy to sell their teachings, and we fit the bill perfectly.

Plus there is the fact that Europe without exception has sided with the Palestinians and the US has not. You can make up your own mind about Israel/Palestine, but maybe our support of the Jews who seek to take over the 3rd holiest city in Islam might have something to do with their hatred of us. Then you can get into why they hate the Jews, which gets back to the Quran, etc. Europe on the other hand has not had such a friendly role in history towards Judaism...

 

That they refuse to take the polio vaccine is a sign they fear we hate them, not that they hate us.

I suppose the scammers are afraid that we will take their money so they choose to steal ours as a pre-emptive move, not because they just want our money. Ridiculous.

[pparaska]

Tannji, I really love it when someone comes in and talks with understanding, points out generalizations that are clearly detrimental to the discussion and gives a view from outside of the far left and far right camps. Bravo!!!

 

I editted your post by breaking it up into paragraphs for easier reading. I did that because I thought it'd be easier for more people to read without blowing it off. I wouldn't have touched it if I didn't think it was one of the best posts in this thread. I hope you don't mind.

 

OK' date=' not to offend anyone anymore than I probably already have in the past.... = ) but saying that Muslims or Muslim countries hate us generally, or hate us because we are a threat to their religeon or culture, is stereotyping and simplistic.

 

Most of the HATE come from a minority, and is educated into them by an even smaller minority. It is no different than the extreme prejudicethat we stereotypically associate with the deep south in our own country.[/quote']

 

Ah, the voice of contemplative reason. So refreshing!

 

Unfortunately' date=' our best weapon is not so much democracy as it is education and commerce. Get them to value the same things we do, free trade, profits, elevated life-styles... and things like greed, keeping up with the Jones, and creature comforts etc.. will generally bring them closer to us and tend to discourage some of the major clashes, as they are indeed based on culture.

 

But there is the rub.... the influence peddlers and the fundamentalists are resisting that cultural exchange with all their might.... and so a process that was already going to take generations is largely stymied. If ya can't win with economics and lifestyle, you are back to democracy as a core value that needs to be projected. We are projecting and selling democracy in the only manner that it will sell over there... to the repressed masses who MIGHT want it and MIGHT remember who helped them get it in the future.... and that places us in the position of having to compromise our values and tastes, in order to have anything remotely similar to allies in the region. [/quote']

 

I think there is something else going on in Iraq that we rarely hear about - the Iraqis who are truly glad we came in, took out Saddam, are helping them build the infrastructure to where it was before the sanctions and Saddam let them fall into disrepair, and are trying to free them from the extremists in their country and others near them (read the government of Iran and Syria).

 

I've spoken with several Iraq war veterans and those who've gone back and they always tell me the same thing - the media is only spinning the hate and bloodshed, making it worse, and not talking about what good the coalition is doing there. Setting up an economy, utilities and medical infrastructure, education centers. And just giving them a chance to take control over their own lives and country like they haven't been able to for decades.

 

Most of the popular media is basically a mouthpiece for the leftists who want to make the rightwing US and British governments look bad, so they do everything they can to find (and as G-bitch has done CREATE) the hateful acts that are going on. Of course there is the capitalist part of it - violence, dirt, scandals sell, so they show us all they can of that.

 

In fact, you could make an arguement that the single greatest advancement in mid-east/western interaction has been the internet and satellite TV.... because it sells a far truer message than our politicians are capable of. The younger generation will be more moderate and open-minded, just as they are here... leaving progress dependant on the commodity we have the least of.... not oil, but time.

 

I certainly hope you are correct. Unfortunately, many people just read what the "news services" dish out and take it at face value. I remember seeing footage of many clueless people on the streets being interviewed why we shouldn't go into Iraq. They didn't know why - they just "felt" that way. Feelings are for relationships. Critical thought and logic are for making decisions. Unfortunately, to many people "think" with their "feelings". And when you get feeling about something, it becomes emotional (duh) and then you want to bitch and rant about it - think protestors.

[johnc]

Bakc to the original point of this thread, it looks like the Italians did not notify the US of the rescue:

 

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1675476,00.html

 

Mario Marioli, a deputy commander of the US-led coalition troops in Iraq, was quoted by the Italian newspaper La Repubblica as saying: "I asked Calipari if I should inform our American allies of the hostage-freeing operation, but his reply was that under no circumstances was the ally to be informed."

 

US authorities say the vehicle had failed to respond to signals to stop.

 

La Repubblica quoted statements by Marioli to Italian investigating magistrates probing the incident. He said he had twice been warned by Calipari not to disclose the operation to the Americans.

 

And the Italians are starting to get disgusted with Guiliani:

 

Meanwhile Italian Justice Minister Roberto Castelli on Friday accused Sgrena of causing problems.

 

"She expresses herself imprudently and she has acted imprudently," he said on Italy's Sky TG24 television news channel.

 

"She has caused enormous problems to the government and also mourning that could have been avoided," said the minister, a member of the right-wing Northern League, a junior coalition partner in Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's government.

 

He was responding to Sgrena's remarks that she had no confidence in the joint Italian-American enquiry.

 

Speaking on television she said: "I feel accused over having been kidnapped and for having been released. I feel like a victim of cannibalism."

[quicker240]

The world sure is complicated.Amazing to me how many truly stupid individuals are in places of power,and how for granted we take the opportunity and priviledge of putting them there.I for one believe in an even more basic rhetoric than has been posted here so far.A good thing I am not in a position of authority because I believe in the "swordfish" mentality(from the movie)."You kill one of mine,We kill a thousand of yours.It would immediately be unconscionable(sp?) to attack the United States".The simple fact is that we ARE the most powerful country in the world and the rest of the world is damn lucky we have the amount of restriant we do.Our military is completely capable of DISECTING the middle east in short order ,if we were to untie their hands.When the bleeding heart liberals figure out that no matter how nice they are to these people,their only goal in life is to cut their throats,then things will change.The simple truth is that we need the oil and they have it.Until that statement is untrue,our ultimate occupation and ownership of it is enevitable,and to believe that with technology and communication of information where it is now, that we can keep nuclear technology to ourselves is just burying our heads in the sand.Inevitable is the fact that some psycho with a computer and internet access is gonna build a device at some point and detonate it here.We as HUMANS need to figure out pretty soon one of two things.Cohabitation,or obliteration.We either get along,or the baddest cat in the jungle will be the only one left,and natural history says it most likely will be the baddest cat.....

[2126]

The world sure is complicated.Amazing to me how many truly stupid individuals are in places of power,and how for granted we take the opportunity and priviledge of putting them there.I for one believe in an even more basic rhetoric than has been posted here so far.A good thing I am not in a position of authority because I believe in the "swordfish" mentality(from the movie)."You kill one of mine,We kill a thousand of yours.It would immediately be unconscionable(sp?) to attack the United States".The simple fact is that we ARE the most powerful country in the world and the rest of the world is damn lucky we have the amount of restriant we do.Our military is completely capable of DISECTING the middle east in short order ,if we were to untie their hands.When the bleeding heart liberals figure out that no matter how nice they are to these people,their only goal in life is to cut their throats,then things will change.The simple truth is that we need the oil and they have it.Until that statement is untrue,our ultimate occupation and ownership of it is enevitable,and to believe that with technology and communication of information where it is now, that we can keep nuclear technology to ourselves is just burying our heads in the sand.Inevitable is the fact that some psycho with a computer and internet access is gonna build a device at some point and detonate it here.We as HUMANS need to figure out pretty soon one of two things.Cohabitation,or obliteration.We either get along,or the baddest cat in the jungle will be the only one left,and natural history says it most likely will be the baddest cat.....

 

Ahmen to that!!! I couldn't have said it any better!

[Guest Phil1934]

The Italian Prime Minister announced today he would withdraw all Italian troops from Iraq over the next several months. Coincidence?

[pparaska]

Of course not. It just means that the Italian government buckles under pressure from terrorists just like the Spanish government did, whether the terrorists use guns or bombs, or an even worse kind of terrorist with a poison pen, lies, deceit, encitement of Iraqi's to join the insurgents with gruesome lies about what the white devils are doing, etc., like Guiliana.

[Michael]

So, getting back to my earlier question (which, BTW, was rhetorical)...

 

1. Shared feelings of anti-Semitism result in a mutual understanding between Europe and the Middle East, which helps to diffuse what would otherwise have been cultural antagonism.

 

2. Extremists in the Muslim world prefer America as their enemy, rather than Western Europe, precisely because in modern times America is the global nexus of power, and is therefore the most convenient target for vilification.

 

Well, so much for the “they hate us because we’re free, democratic and pluralistic†argument.

[Guest Phil1934]

In an update to the story, the US has denied the Italian government access to Giuliana Sgrena's car.

[johnc]

Link please...

[Guest Phil1934]

I had heard it on the radio. Had a lot going on, so no time to search, but here it is

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8361.htm

[johnc]

At least CBS is still keeping an eye on this:

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050429/pl_afp/italyusiraqsatellite_050429162837;_ylt=Arjg3cLaI9SskuMfdpXZv8GsOrgF;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

[Guest Phil1934]

The math doesn't add up. If they fired at the car when it was 137 yards away and it was stopped 46 yards away 3 seconds later, it went from 411' to 138' in 3 seconds. Since 60 MPH is 88 feet per second, they would have had to average that to do this. And who can stop a car travelling 120 MPH in 273'? Here's a safety chart http://www.safespeed.org.uk/inattention.html

[Pop N Wood]

The article says they first spotted the car at 137 yards. It doesn't say how far away the car was when they opened fire.

 

At least that is way I read it.

[Guest Phil1934]

They were fired upon when they failed to responds to hand signals. If you want to delay the stopping, the numbers go from ridiculous to absurd. At 3 seconds from 120 MPH they would have to brake at better than 1.5 G's. At 2 seconds from 95 MPH they would have to brake at better than 2 G's. Obviously whoever was told to figure out a distance that corresponded to a speed of greater than 60 MPH failed to realize they were stopped at the end of this distance. We've got to get better math training in public schools!