stony Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Some of you may know about this car it been around for a while... Horsepower Hero rb26 240Z Anyways, i was talking with a blown alcohol guy at the track the other day(he was obviously trying to get me to convert my motor to alcohol) We talked about the benefits of alcohol and its power potential. Has anyone ever tried or researched what it would take as a minumum to convert a rb26 turbo... well any turbo motor to straight alcohol injection. I know fuel delivery has to be doubled but from what i have seen and understand detonation is not an issue with alcohol and guys are running ungoddly hi boost levels with it. So is there more to it other then upgrading the fuel system, turning up the boost and tuning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Benito Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Most likely you will have to buy new injectors at least. From the pump forward, you may be looking at changing everything that the fuel touches short of the motor itself. Usually the tuning is that hard part, not the conversion--I learned that from my DSM tuning days... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stony Posted June 14, 2005 Author Share Posted June 14, 2005 My car dosnt have a fuel system in it right now that will be getting installed shortly thats why I'm considering this route. Bad thing is it will render my car a "track" car versus a semi daily driver. I love the idea of taking detonation out of the picture almost all together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 My car dosnt have a fuel system in it right now that will be getting installed shortly thats why I'm considering this route. Bad thing is it will render my car a "track" car versus a semi daily driver. I love the idea of taking detonation out of the picture almost all together. I've been thinking about the same thing, although with a factory ECCS there would be some challenges if it's to run right on the street. The O2 sensor would not read properly. Another reason, other than detonation resistance, is ethanol or methanol can be derived from renewable and domestic sources. Since I'm running diesels on B100 biodiesel, running my gassers on ethanol or methanol has appeal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Why would the O2 sensor not work properly? I've had mine on several chassis dyno's and the O2 sensors work fine, I hear they don't last as long (don't know), but they work fine. Need alcohol injectors and fuel pump, lines to handle the additional volume. No detonation problems, Blown alky motors 12 to 13 comp is ok and up to 30 psi boost as I'm told by the procharger people. Turbo folks say 9 to 9.5 to one and same boost. Both are claiming 1200 (turbo) to 1400HP (procharged) on a 350sbc, don't know about RB, but rule of thumb on alky is 50 to 70HP gain on a NA motor just by switching. I like alky, wouldn't have anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stony Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 I have been told that it has the potential to double the output of teh same motor on gas... If its built for it that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheftrd Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Stony, I got your mail, but I've been sick as hell. Today was my first day back to work this week. I'll give you more specifics later, but read the following and see if you can guess where I stand on alcohol and street driven cars... From Barry Grant.... Applications running alcohol require additional maintenance beyond that of a gasoline fuel system. Alcohol, being extremely corrosive, should not be left in the fuel system or carburetor for an extended period of time. Proper care includes draining and flushing the entire fuel system, usually with gasoline. The most common method is to drain the system and add gasoline to the fuel cell allowing the pump to draw fuel through the lines and to the carburetor. Alcohol carburetors are much richer than gasoline, so when the engine begins to idle and die, the system is pretty well flushed. If your sanctioning body allows the use of fuel additives, always use an additive that lubricates the fuel system for protection while racing. Methanol is pretty much used in cars that are at the end of their power production potential due to fuel limitations. The RB26 is MECHANICALLY limited to 1300 hp, or so. Nobody has been able to keep the engine together over this level (cylinder block gives up and lets go of the head). 1300 hp is achievable on race gasoline, so there's no power bennifit to running methanol. As an example, say you were at 1300 hp and the engine was at it's knock limit with race gas, but mechanically the engine had lots left. You could then use methanol to realize larger gains. American V8's encounter this quite often as the crappy, two valve, bathtub (wedge) combustion chamber severely limits how much MEP the engine will tolerate before detonation. Pentroof and true hemi chambers go way beyond this. (V8 guys calm down. I build those too!) Your T88 34D will make around 750-800 hp worth of airflow. Methanol would allow you to run much hgher compression for a gain in hp. You could also get a bigger turbo and end up with the same results without the fuel headache. Edit: I forgot to add, in alcohols defense, that it's an oxygen bearing fuel, so it also brings more O2 to the game; that's where it get's a lot of the extra power potential from. But it still stands, concerning the RB26, you can make the max-mechanical power limit of the engine with gasoline. It also absorbs water, so you can't store it in the vented fuel cell or it becomes diluted. It severely dilutes your oil, keep it changed. Way more often. If you're looking for that 200hp advantage, N2O is your buddy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Why would the O2 sensor not work properly? I've had mine on several chassis dyno's and the O2 sensors work fine' date=' I hear they don't last as long (don't know), but they work fine. Need alcohol injectors and fuel pump, lines to handle the additional volume. No detonation problems, Blown alky motors 12 to 13 comp is ok and up to 30 psi boost as I'm told by the procharger people. Turbo folks say 9 to 9.5 to one and same boost. Both are claiming 1200 (turbo) to 1400HP (procharged) on a 350sbc, don't know about RB, but rule of thumb on alky is 50 to 70HP gain on a NA motor just by switching. I like alky, wouldn't have anything else.[/quote']Because it's an oxygenated fuel, and the sensor will read extra oxygen and richen cruising mixtures beyond ideal. It's a small problem, and shouldn't affect full throttle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stony Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 Stony' date=' I got your mail, but I've been sick as hell. Today was my first day back to work this week. I'll give you more specifics later, but read the following and see if you can guess where I stand on alcohol and street driven cars... From Barry Grant.... Applications running alcohol require additional maintenance beyond that of a gasoline fuel system. Alcohol, being extremely corrosive, should not be left in the fuel system or carburetor for an extended period of time. Proper care includes draining and flushing the entire fuel system, usually with gasoline. The most common method is to drain the system and add gasoline to the fuel cell allowing the pump to draw fuel through the lines and to the carburetor. Alcohol carburetors are much richer than gasoline, so when the engine begins to idle and die, the system is pretty well flushed. If your sanctioning body allows the use of fuel additives, always use an additive that lubricates the fuel system for protection while racing. Methanol is pretty much used in cars that are at the end of their power production potential due to fuel limitations. The RB26 is MECHANICALLY limited to 1300 hp, or so. Nobody has been able to keep the engine together over this level (cylinder block gives up and lets go of the head). 1300 hp is achievable on race gasoline, so there's no power bennifit to running methanol. As an example, say you were at 1300 hp and the engine was at it's knock limit with race gas, but mechanically the engine had lots left. You could then use methanol to realize larger gains. American V8's encounter this quite often as the crappy, two valve, bathtub (wedge) combustion chamber severely limits how much MEP the engine will tolerate before detonation. Pentroof and true hemi chambers go way beyond this. (V8 guys calm down. I build those too!) Your T88 34D will make around 750-800 hp worth of airflow. Methanol would allow you to run much hgher compression for a gain in hp. You could also get a bigger turbo and end up with the same results without the fuel headache.[/quote'] YOU DONT LIKE IT? I was just curious. Im not sure but im thinking 1600cc alky injectors will cost a fortune not to mention the maze of a fuel system that would have to be fabbed up. Thanks again for all the info. BTW for safety and funding issues i dont plan on going past 700RWHP with this motor atleast for a while. i want it to last :> BTW does longevity and HAS even go together (sorry guys inside joke) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheftrd Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 YOU DONT LIKE IT? BTW does longevity and HAS even go together (sorry guys inside joke) No. But you're supposed to tear it down?? Seriously, look into a 200-250 N2O shot for the on-traction, top end charge. I'm about two seconds from working a deal for having bottles filled locally, at huge savings over sending them off. Please don't misunderstand, methanol has a place. Just not in the street driven RB26. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stony Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 I want to keep it legal for the classes here in alaska and all of them only allow one power adder. Once i get the car back from Chassis jail i will pull the motor back out and check crank bearings if all is well there im not gonna go any further. 4 days till probation :> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug71zt Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Ford has 160lb/hr injectors, for alt-fuel bigblocks. I'm using them for a TT Mopar wedge project. They are cheap as they are too big for most applications. $300 for 8 on fleabay. Maybe you could run dual EFI programming, gas/street, alcohol/track with those injectors, but the idle would probably be terrible on gas. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheftrd Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I just checked those injectors. $425 for six injectors modified to fit import!! That's a smokin deal. Denso 100# injectors are around $180 each!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clifton Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 You can easily run 30-35 psi on VP. How much boost were you planning on running? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zcarsmakemyheadhurt Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Hey Stony, Alcohol is a bit of maintinence but on most cars I have seen/worked with, well worth it (race cars). Some of the big advantages is the cooler running tempertures found with alki will have far less demands on cooling systems. Alot of racers cement the heads and eliminate water passages to prevent headgasket failure alocohol lets you get away with that type of stuff. You can also run a strong igntion curve on Alki and countless tricks can be performed with your standalone. I think it worth the investment, or you can look at alki injection to get your feet wet with it. This product works pretty good http://www.snowperformance.net/ I'm using them on my non intercooled project now. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stony Posted July 19, 2005 Author Share Posted July 19, 2005 I just checked those injectors. $425 for six injectors modified to fit import!! That's a smokin deal. Denso 100# injectors are around $180 each!! Matt are the injectors you are talking about 100lb hi impedance injectors? where did you see them at? very interested Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheftrd Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 The Denso 100# injectors are low impedance. Not sure on the Ford ones. You don't need the Nissan resistor pack, Just a resistor in line with each channel to increase the resistance to 13-14 ohms. If you go with the VPRO, It will need a resistor for each injector. Not a good idea to run big high ohm injectors with high (turbo) fuel pressure. You may see problems with the injectors not opening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Taylor Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 You may want to take a look at http://www.racetronix.com . I bought my 75# injectors for them for under $400/set. They also have 95#'s for the same price. JT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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