Administrators BRAAP Posted January 10, 2006 Administrators Share Posted January 10, 2006 C’mon guys… Are you building Show cars or great handling sports cars? You guys seem hell bent on trying to fix what AIN’T broke and letting the front suspension remain with all of its issues. You guys did read about the front suspension being the weak end of the Z car right? It was right here in this thread…Sure the rear isn’t perfect, but from a performance standpoint, the rear works pretty darn good and it works FAR better than the front. i.e. the FORNT really needs your attention before the rear. Just trying to find out if you guys are more concerned with building Show cars or wanting to apply true handling performance mods to your Z? Building a show car with a cool unique rear suspension is OK, nothing wrong with that, but it looks bad when when you perform mods like this to a system that isn't the weak spot in the first palce, and then portray it to the rest of the world as being for performance reasons when you let the real issue slide, i.e. in this case, leaving the front end with all its issues.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Last edited by BRAAP : 4 Minutes Ago at 12:52 AM. Reason: It was a bit harsh for the young-ins.. I liked the original better... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Paul, remember, this is HybridZ and we don't want to discourage radical modifications to our cars. I do agree that this rear suspension swap is unproven and may not improve handling at all, but, Scotty (and others) have swapped a Corvette C4 rear suspension into a 240Z with great results for their drag racing and street driving applications. That was something I would have bet against... and lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed260Z Posted January 12, 2006 Author Share Posted January 12, 2006 C’mon guys… Are you building Show cars or great handling sports cars? You guys seem hell bent on trying to fix what AIN’T broke and letting the front suspension remain with all of its issues.... I'm not building a show car' date=' but I do want to update the car as much as possiable. And the front of the S30 deffinately has more issues than the rear. But I haven't seen any modifications that I really like yet enough to open a disscusion about them. I've seen the Corvette IRS and the S13/S14 IRS mod done on the S30. Of the 2 I liked the 240SX the most. Why? Because I always heard that the 240SX was a great handling car. But there are a lot of open questions as too whether or not this swap is an "upgrade". And johnc asked one of the most important questions yet. A simple question: Does anyone know where the roll and instant centers are on the 240SX rear suspension? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted January 13, 2006 Administrators Share Posted January 13, 2006 I'm not building a show car' date=' but I do want to update the car as much as possiable. And the front of the S30 deffinately has more issues than the rear. But I haven't seen any modifications that I really like yet enough to open a disscusion about them. I've seen the Corvette IRS and the S13/S14 IRS mod done on the S30. Of the 2 I liked the 240SX the most. Why? Because I always heard that the 240SX was a great handling car. But there are a lot of open questions as too whether or not this swap is an "upgrade". And johnc asked one of the most important questions yet.[/quote'] My apologies to you Ed260Z, John C, and the rest of the Hybrid forum. Apparently I let my Ego and Pride take over and posted a very negative attitude. Ego and Pride are both negative emotional traits that I strive to not exhibit. Obviously, I failed and I apologize for allowing those traits to manifest as they did in my previous post. By all means, please continue this thread on the course it has taken and please disregard my previous comments. Paul Ruschman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 Oh come on BRAAP, noone apologises around here Now if I can sneak some 'off topic' stuff in, the Supra front suspension module is massive, not impossible but impractical to fit. But the Z32 front in a S130 or maybe even a S30, hmmmm, worth a look, yes. Wide track, here we go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackBeaut Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 Now if I can sneak some 'off topic' stuff in, the Supra front suspension module is massive, not impossible but impractical to fit. But the Z32 front in a S130 or maybe even a S30, hmmmm, worth a look, yes. Wide track, here we go I was looking at the Z32 manual (from carfiche.com) just the other day to see how this might work, but to my eyes it seems that the Z32 front setup is pretty much a MacPherson style layout anyway, with the exception of the weird little link arm bit. I may of course have misinterpreted the not very clear diagrams in the PDF! Cheers, Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed260Z Posted January 13, 2006 Author Share Posted January 13, 2006 My apologies to you Ed260Z' date=' John C, .................... By all means, please continue this thread on the course it has taken and please disregard my previous comments. Paul Ruschman[/quote'] No need to apologize, any comment can be helpful if there ia some fact to back it up. And if we didn't get a little emotional about our cars forums like this would never exist. I agree with you that the front suspension is severly lacking, when compared to the rear. At one time I contemplated getting a Vette, and hacking it up to fit under a Z. I have a very limited amount of knowledge on modifications to the front, but it seems that you do. How about opening a new thread to discuss that issue. I'm sure we would get a lot of responces. I stumbled on to a new IRS set up while looking into what diff to mount into my Z. The idea intrigued me, and I did more research. (And when off on another tangent.) The longer I'm on this forum the more ideas I get, some are good, and some are "what the F$#!@ was I thinking" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 Well... the best strut front suspension out there from a geometry standpoint (that I have experience with) is the E36 M3... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 Well... the best strut front suspension out there from a geometry standpoint (that I have experience with) is the E36 M3... Is that one of those double ball-joint versions? I played with that idea for a while but couldn't get everything to live in my tiny 13 inch wheels. Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 Single ball joint: http://www.geocities.com/cesargrau/mac_multi_m3.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 Strut front suspension? Nissan did a fair bit of work on the Z31, changed the scrub radius and built in more caster? Anyway, whatever they did exactly it was to improve performance capability. If I did a S30 again, the entire Z31 front Xmember with suspension, brakes and power steer rack would be a prospective replacement. Probably give more track too. The rack behind the Xmember (Ackermann?) may get in the way of an L series sump though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karay240 Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 Hey, BlackBeaut, the front suspention design on the Z32 is the Nissan front multilink design. This same/similar design was used in the R32, 33, 34, G20, Q45 (I think), and several other higher end cars (not that I'd call a G20 a high end car) It allows the front geometry to be more stable than the conventional strut design. Nissan used this design over the double wishbone to allow space for the front axles for the G20 and the GTR. Look @ the Hondas and other FF cars w/ double wishbone, it's pretty much the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 Strut front suspension? Nissan did a fair bit of work on the Z31' date=' changed the scrub radius and built in more caster? Anyway, whatever they did exactly it was to improve performance capability. If I did a S30 again, the entire Z31 front Xmember with suspension, brakes and power steer rack would be a prospective replacement. Probably give more track too. The rack behind the Xmember (Ackermann?) may get in the way of an L series sump though.[/quote'] Did you see stony's pics of his front suspension? He took a Skyline strut housing and somehow had it welded onto a 280Z strut tube. Had a whole lot of offset on the hubs and LOTS of Ackermann, by the looks of the pictures of the steer knuckle. They curved out quite a bit more than your welded ones IIRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted January 14, 2006 Administrators Share Posted January 14, 2006 Hey' date=' BlackBeaut, the front suspention design on the Z32 is the Nissan front multilink design. This same/similar design was used in the R32, 33, 34, G20, Q45 (I think), and several other higher end cars (not that I'd call a G20 a high end car) It allows the front geometry to be more stable than the conventional strut design. Nissan used this design over the double wishbone to allow space for the front axles for the G20 and the GTR. Look @ the Hondas and other FF cars w/ double wishbone, it's pretty much the same.[/quote'] Yes,. The Z-32, Q-45 and a few other Nissan cars shared the same Multi link front suspension. From a geometry stand point, I think it is very similar to the Honda front suspension, from a design stand point, a pseudo double A-arm arrangement if you will. It is my opinion, (and that’s all it is, my opinion,) Nissans execution of this front suspension design is a bit heavy and cumbersome. I have no idea as to what its geometry is like, but my guess is that it is a little better, from a performance stand point, than the OE S-30 front end. Is it worth the weight penalty?… Again, I don’t REALLY know for sure… If you guys are serious, I would be willing to take some pics of the front suspension of my ’96 Q-45 and post them here if it would help any… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karay240 Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 I’d like to say one thing to anyone seriously thinking about this type of drastic modification (not that some of the swaps I see here are any less insane) Although none of these multilink/double wishbone swaps are easy, it would be far more feasible and will make your life much much easier to choose a system w/ upper and lower control arm mounting points on the crossmember. Systems like the Nissan multilink or the double wishbone from the RX-7 might be great if done right; however, you’ll have to reengineer the upper control arm mounting points. If you’re into this kind of challenge, that’s great. But if you go w/ an integrated system like the Mazda Miata, then you only have to worry about caster and the instant center. (I know I’m oversimplifying the procedure, but I don’t think anyone should be trying anything this involved unless they are willing to read a little more than a couple of threads on a forum) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 Did you see stony's pics of his front suspension? He took a Skyline strut housing and somehow had it welded onto a 280Z strut tube. Had a whole lot of offset on the hubs and LOTS of Ackermann, by the looks of the pictures of the steer knuckle. They curved out quite a bit more than your welded ones IIRC. I went looking but seem to be challenged in finding pics today. This sounds interesting. In my early investigations it became clear that a two piece strut is better as it allows you to partially seperate changing camber from changing RC. Is this what he's done? Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 Hmm... found a thread http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=71077. I think I had just seen one picture of the steer knuckle before, not the whole thread on how it was done. I guess it is a Z31 strut not a R32 strut. Still, looks like it has a different offset on the caliper and a slip on rotor to allow more Ackermann in the front end. Stony used the AZC arms, which seems to indicate that a stock arm would work as well. Looks like he had problems with the tie rods being too short, not surprising with the steer knuckles shaped the way they are. Also had "too much" caster. Anyway, interesting experiment but probably not the be all end all we were looking for. IIRC the Z31 spindle has a different angle to it too, so it might give a completely wrong camber setting on a S30, so if you don't have a whole lot of adjustability, might not be the best idea... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 From memory the Z31 has about 6 degrees caster, which should be good in a S30, help turn in which can be a problem with the stock S30 setup. Of course if the whole Z31 setup was transplanted into a S30 the amount of caster would depend on the physical location of each strup top compared with the outer suspension balljoint, as fitted into the S30. Anyway, that sort of transplant has the attraction to me of adding power steering, bigger brakes etc to make it worth looking at. Mickey mouse stuff though compared with what is going to happen to my newly acquired S130 two seater Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stony Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 Hmm... found a thread http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=71077. I think I had just seen one picture of the steer knuckle before' date=' not the whole thread on how it was done. I guess it is a Z31 strut not a R32 strut. Still, looks like it has a different offset on the caliper and a slip on rotor to allow more Ackermann in the front end. Stony used the AZC arms, which seems to indicate that a stock arm would work as well. Looks like he had problems with the tie rods being too short, not surprising with the steer knuckles shaped the way they are. Also had "too much" caster. Anyway, interesting experiment but probably not the be all end all we were looking for. IIRC the Z31 spindle has a different angle to it too, so it might give a completely wrong camber setting on a S30, so if you don't have a whole lot of adjustability, might not be the best idea...[/quote'] The stock arms didn’t work because they are not adjustable. In the end I was able to adjust the suspension to stock s30 dimensions, and everything worked great. The AZC front arms allow for allot of adjustment and I could have put more caster into it but my goal was to go straight fast and have a good set of brakes. The only problem I had was the disc to disc width on the front got about 2 inches wider. And with the z32 calipers on the front, the Weld 3.5 inch wheels needed a 2 inch spacer to clear the caliper. This will be fixed with a wheel with the correct offset once I get the car back from the chassis shop. I did this because I got all the parts for free and I just wanted to do something on the car :> I will be selling the entire front end once I get the car back because im going to redo it with a different set of struts more suited for a straight up drag car. More to come...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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