speeding tickets

[BLKMGK]

Okay, have read most but not quite all of this and I'll point out a few things from my perspective having racked up a few tickets myself - but none lately Okay I did get pulled the other day but it was bogus and he let me go after he found out I wasn't 16 and WOULD fight him in court - smart guy he was!

 

When I was 16 I had a cop pull me over, he was looking for me I know. I had told him to blow off after he appeared on my doorstep accusing me of something I hadn't done. This cop LIED in court to convict me and to this day I've never forgotten it. I told the truth and was screwed! He stated, under what I assume was some sort of oath though I never saw it given, that he had observed my car "wildly fishtailing the back end through a parking lot filled with people". The car was front wheel drive and I had just exited a parking spot! The judge reduced my sentence since I'd admitted that the tires had chirped after having sat in greasy water in front of the 7-11. The judge did at least give the cop a stern look and he looked embarrased, back then there weren't many front wheel drive cars (lol). During that traffic stop the cop reamed a passenger for supposedly smiling - I **** you not. I learned a valuable lesson in Kangaroo court that day - cops LIE.

 

I had another cop pull me over years later LATE one night. I was less than a block from home, tired, and hadn't paid much attention to my speed. He wanted to know if I knew the speed limit on that road, I replied that it varied from 25-45 depending upon where you were. He yelled at me that it "never" went as high as 45 mph - the speed at which I had been travelling. I pointed to the 45mph sign 100ft in front of my car He then yelled that I "hadn't made it" and wrote me a ticket. My respect for the "law" dropped another BIG notch. I wasn't endangering anyone and wasn't flying. Yes, I was driving a Mustang at the time - go figure.

 

Forward a few more years, cop comes out of nowhere and nearly runs a friend off the road claiming he had seen me spin my tires. This after an interoggation as to "where I was going", "what was I doing" - things that were NONE of his business. Honstly I think he thought he had pulled over a 16year old kid whose chain he could yank and got a surprise. He refused to answer ANY of my questions regarding his vehicles position when he supposedly made his observation. He said I could "ask my silly questions in court later". I later confirmed with the friend he nearly ran into a ditch that his car had NOT been behind us and that he had roared over a hill to intercept us. I was innocent and had NOT spun my tires - I was also VERY angry at having been given a 6point reckless ticket I fought this one with my friend as a witness, the cop failed to show for court and it was postponed. I attempted to protest and was informed by the judge that he felt it fair for the cop to get a postponement since I as a citizen could do the same. Never mind the fact that I am required to make my request for such a thing 2 weeks in advance! When the next court date came it was something like 6months since I'd been pulled over and when I attempted to talk to the DA about it she just sneered when I rejected her offer of "improper driving" as a reduction - also a 6point offense Before we could actually have our say the cop asked to talk to us in the hall - he apologized to my friend for nearly running him over, he admitted to me he had seen nothing, and he told me the case was being dropped!

 

Through other friends I've seen MANY other such abuses to inclde traffic stops and tickets for things the cop couldn't possibly have seen while driving and trespassing charges for people standing on land that wasn't marked - only those few who fought didn't end up with a record, the rest got nailed.

 

In short - I do NOT trust most of the officers carrying guns on our streets. I have been assaulted, for which no action was taken despite police being called. I have been robbed multiple times, for which no trace of anything was ever recovered much less any follow up. Hell, once I had to tell the cop how to get a print! He didn't even WANT to fingerprint! He got a full set of prints in the end - for all the good that did. I even know some cops - they aren't bad people but many are cowboys on a power rush. Here's one for you - ask a cop who's married how they met their wife. Want to bet it was a traffic stop? I knew several cops who used to laugh about this - they would pull over attractive women after running their tags on whatever they could think of. They always let them off with a warning but not before they had flirted with them and maybe gotten a number. These were good guys, not dirty cops, but they still liked to abuse their "power" just a bit.

 

Some cops are good, I know a few but I'm sorry the majority of my encounters with police have been FAR from good. Do I have an attitude? Yup, been pulled over WAY too many times when I've done nothing to warrant it. If you're the only sports car in a line of speeding cars who gets the ticket? You know who and you know why and if you're 16 you're doubly cursed. If you want an education spend some time sitting in "traffic court". That's a pure joke if I ever saw one.

 

Want to really see some interesting things? Go on a "ride along" with your local police force and see what goes on. You will see them do some good but I'll bet you'll also see some things you won't much like. For some cops it's a game to see who they can screw with, ask any kid in a riced out Honda and they will probably tell you horror stories. I've seen some with glove boxes FILLED to overflowing with BS tickets. I don't much like these Hondas either but unless they're being stupid and have some REALLY illegal stuff ontheir car I see no reason for them to be harrassed - next week it could just as easily be me. Worse, the police are growing an entire generation of kids that do NOT respect them - just like they did with me....

 

Bleah - bedtime and now I'm all spun up again over all of my bogus traffic stops. And yes, I've had a few legit ones that I've paid but my current record is clean as a whistle

[Mikelly]

OK Kevin... And Jim Powers...

 

We don't have the right to drive Kevin... No where is a god given right for you to USE the paved and public roads set fourth by a county, state, or municipality without paying for a permit to do so... It isn't a right, never was and never will be...It is a PRIVILAGE. And one that YOU and I and EVERYONE else can LOSE... You are a lawyer, shame on you, you know better..

 

JIm Powers, I used to be a cop, have a degree for the job and was good at it...Too good... I was a HUGE prick (Not to say I'm not now!) and part of it was due to the fact that I dealt with assholes ALL day... The other half was the powertrip that I and everyother cop I knew was on... And now my wifes ex-husband uses his "Authority" every day to get out of something, get something for free, or to have some drug addict do himn a sexual favor in the back of his patrol car JUST so he can excercise his sense of POWER over them... No, not all cops are bad, and most probably aren't, but the bad ones are out there... And they are worse than you could imagine... I left that line of work because I didn't want to become one of "Them".

 

As to the lad who got pulled over, Your friend is screwed. He is guilty, you admitted it here, and you MAY be used as a witness in court, and if it comes out that he had a passenger in the car with him, therefore endangering the life of another, he could also have THOSE charges stacked up against him if you local Distict Attourney wants to use him as an example... We found this out when my little brother was in the pokey... He had a friend with him when he was touching 104mph in a 55mph zone and it would have sent him to jail for 1 year... No bargaining... The Cop let that one slide because he didn't want to see him go down for a year..

 

Guys, this one has MORE than run its course... I think a few of the posts here are bordering the edge of acceptance, so lets get it back in check...

 

Mike Who has just gotten home from the VIR500

[blueovalz]

Well 7 years down the tubes. Last night I got my first ticket in a long while. 45 in a 35 in my Pathfinder. I guess what really gripes me about this is law enforcement's quick answer to all the worlds automobile accidents, and that single, all evil word is SPEED. Masculine Bovine Feces!!!. Inattentive driving has a hell of a lot more to do with accidents than speeding ever has. Take the cell phone out of the car, and I wouldn't have to take corrective action to prevent an accident 2 times or more per week. But the first thing investigated in an accident is speed, not the dumb ass factor next to the cell phone. This is one reason I have little respect for these "tirades" that the highway patrol has when they occasionally saturate a single area with radar and cars for a 100% catch rate. BTW, my daughter will not have a radio, nor 2 back seats, in her car the first year of driving. Obviously, this is not directed toward anybody on this list and is done with the deepest respect for those who have served in the past.

[Kevin Shasteen]

Originally posted by Mikelly:

[QB]

 

I understand your post Mike.

 

However; one last post (Short and Sweet)

 

1) We don't have the right to drive...,

 

I never said we have a "Right" to "Drive"...I said we have a "Right" to "Travel"...Driving is definately a "Privilage"...and as the Supreme Court has said-"Rights Can Not Be Regulated" whereby "Privileges Are Completely Regulated."

 

Mike if you have a degree on policing, referencing the highways...the hwys are "Public..not Private". Prior to the 1930's there were no "Licensing...because there were no "Drivers" other than "Commercial Truck Drivers"...everyone else "Travelled". Who truly "OWNS" the public roads...THE PUBLIC..not private corporation municipalities.

 

2) No where is a god given right for you to USE the paved and public roads set fourth by a county, state, or municipality without paying for a permit to do so...,

 

Mike, if you followed the money-you would see that "Privilages dont pay for Pavement"...our Excise Taxes pay for pavement.

 

 

I'm done-I promise...no more.

 

I told ya'll not to get me goin

 

Kevin,

(Yea,Still an Inliner)

[Mikelly]

Kevin, did you work on former President Clinton's staff??? Man you are good at wordplay... You know, I didn't inhail, and did not have sex with that woman, I don't like cigars....

 

Look guys, our laws are what they are. They aren't the best, but they are better than most other places I've been, and I've been to a few.. If you don't like the Laws of our land, put in place by elected officials then you have the "RIGHT" to try to actively get elected and change them... You can become active in local politics, or try a protest...

 

Terry, that sux man... to break a streak like that...Maybe the Judge will look at your record and just drop it...

 

Mike

[Kevin Shasteen]

Originally posted by Mikelly:

[QB]..., Kevin, did you work on former President Clinton's staff??? Man you are good at wordplay... You know, I didn't inhail, and did not have sex with that woman, I don't like cigars....

 

1) Mike, you are bating me besides-I thought we were going to leave my family out of this; no need to get personal now (LOL-its okay as I am very Thick-skinned). If knowing the definitions of words is "Wordplay" then I guess a dictionary is not a book of defintions but a book on how to "Wordplay" and a "Legal Dictionary" isnt about defining Legal Words...but is only an exercise in "Wordplay" also(?). For that matter-our State and Federal Constitutions are only "Wordplays". If words dont have specific meanings-then why dont we have only one word-which has a thousand different meanings? Instead we have thousands of words w/specific meanings. Sometimes one word will have a dozen different meanings; so, knowing which definition is being used when that word gets used is worth knowing-but you will never know its "Intent" if you dont know that word has more than one meaning to begin with.

 

.., Look guys, our laws are what they are..,

 

2) That statement Mike, our [laws], is a vague and ambiguous reference to more than one law-is plural; as in more than one AKA: LAW(s), implying that there is more than one law, which also implies there are distinctions between one law -vs- other laws. How can you ever "KNOW" what those distinctions are if you dont know that a "Distinction" even exists?

 

3) Mike...you said you were at one time a Police Officer. In order to become a badge carrying officer you had to pass the police academy; upon your acceptance of you graduation-just prior to getting your badge presented (Offer) and you taking that badge (Acceptance), you had to "Swear an Oath". Your oath, if it was anything like my Brother-n-Laws for the City of Lewisville, included a promise to uphold the "Laws of Texas" and the "Laws of the United States" and the "Laws of the U.N." (U.N.?-what the heck; there goes our Nationality). The importance of that Oath is to uphold those "Law(s)", if there was no distinction between these three Venues-then why does the distinction exist within that "Oath"? Obviously words, "Wordplay" as you put it, has its place.

 

3).., They aren't the best, but they are better than most other places I've been

 

They are the best; simply because it is "Voluntary" to "Agree" to "Contract" with someone who makes you an "Offer". Likewise, it is also "Voluntary" to not "Contract" with whom you dont wish to "Contract".

 

Think about some cities whose borders include an Indian Nation (Reservation). Those Indian Nations-even tho they exist within the borders of that city...are not under the "Jurisdiction" of that city. As long as the Indians dont wonder off the Reservation-those same Indians are not "Subject to the Jurisdiction" of the city in which their "Nation" (Reservation) exists.

 

Likewise, if I'm on a sidewalk in any city and my path crosses that of some 5 Star General in the U.S. Armed Forces who SHOUTS & DEMANDS I hit the deck & give him 20 Push-ups; because I am not in the Armed Forces (No Contract that has my "Signature" on it) then I can look the 5 Star General in the eyes and say "Thank You for your [offer] but No Thank-you" as in [Rejection of his offer."

 

Now, the very second "THE VERY SECOND" that I:

 

1) Willingly

2) Knowlingly

3) Intentionally

 

Sign my "Signature" on the armed forces "Recruiting Office's" sign up contract, then I can no longer say no to their "Command". Why? Because I have just agreed not only to enter their "Venue" but I have also "Contracted" to be "Subject to their Jurisdiction". It was my "Free Will" to voluntarily enter that "Jurisdiction".

 

Likewise, the Military Personel have no Jurisdiction on the "Indian Nation". The U.S. Military Personel [CAN NOT] enter that Indian Nation and "Demand the Indians" to "Subject" themselves to the Military Personel's [Authority]. Again I ask you, WHY? Because the Jurisdictins are not one in the same; they exists in the same territory, but they are not the same Venues.

 

4).., If you don't like the Laws of our land, put in place by elected officials then you have the "RIGHT" to try to actively get elected and change them..,

 

I dont need to change them; I like the laws we have, because I do have "Free Will" not to enter a "Jurisdiction" nor to be "Subject to the Jurisdiction Thereof" if I dont want to. If I harm someone-then my action has just given authority for the "Venue" to act against me; according to the Jurisdicton where that act took place. This is all I've been saying all along-if there is no "Flesh and Blood" [Accusor] then there must be a "Contract" for that "Jurisdiction" to act against you. Jurisdictions are not "automatic"; they are explicit. Those juridictions must be triggered. If a policing authority doesnt have a "Flesh and Blood" [Accusor] then their officers must have a "Delegation of Authority" to act against you. If they dont have that "Delegation of Authority" to act against you then they "MUST" have your "Permission" to act against you.

 

5).., You can become active in local politics, or try a protest...

 

Why protest the "Greates Place in the World" where "Freedom" isnt just a word, IT IS A REALITY. But, if you dont know what "Freedom" is-it can be taken from you.

 

Since Jim Powers is a Lawyer, why dont you ask him to loan you his "Black's Law Dictionary" and you as well as anyone can do their own "Word Study". A good list of words to study would be:

 

1) Law(s) in general

2) Positive Law -vs- Prima Facie Laws

3) Implimented -vs- Non-Implimented Law (When is a Law a Law and when must it be obeyed?)

4) Subjective -vs- Objective

5) Jurisdiction and Subject to the Jurisdiction

6) Rights -vs- Privilege/Benefits

7) Laws -vs- Ordinance, Codes, Rules & Regulations

8) Private -vs- Public -vs- International

9) Sinature (When is Authority an Authority)

10) License (When must one have one)

11) Negotiable Instruments

12) Exemptions -vs- Immunity

13) In Law -vs- At Law -vs- By Law

14) Practicing Law -vs- Operating In Law

15) Presentment, Instrument, Negotiable Instrument

16) Res; as in the prefix to [Res]ident

17) Citation

 

If you looked at Black's Law Dictionary you would find that by the definition of "Citation" that only a Judge/Magistrate can give a citation....not an Officer-this is why they require our signature; what the officer "Offers" us is an instrument...a presentment; which is void if it doesnt have our signature on it.

 

Jurisdictions are not assumed-they dont happen automatically; they must be proven, or the courts cant proceed.

 

Take the word Jurisdiction & look at the Black Law Dictionary for its defintion:

 

a) Jurisdiction: It is the power of the court to decide a matter in controversy and prsupposes the existence of a duly constituted court with control over the "Subject Matter" and the "Parties". (Courts must have Authority not only over the Issue being heard but also the Parties involved). Jurisdiction [DEFINES] the [POWER OF COURTS] to [inquire into Facts], [APPLY THE LAW], [MAKE DECISIONS], and [DECLARE JUDGEMENTS]. It exists when the court has cognizace of class of cases involved, proper parties are present, and point to be decided is [WITHIN THE POWER OF THE COURT].

 

Last 2 Questions: "Within the power of the Court" implies that there are issues that are not "within the power of the court"; so again I ask:

 

1) At what point is the power of the court triggered?

2) Are all Law(s) applied to everyone?

 

Kevin,

(Yea,Still an Inliner)

[Mikelly]

I graduated from the Federal Law Enforcement Academy in 1986, the youngest graduate at that time ever to pass through those sacred grounds, I was 20 years old. By that time I had also obtained a degree in POLICE SCIENCE, and was working on a degree in criminology, as well as another (Yes dual majors) degree in Psycology with a speciality in abnormal behavioral sciences.

 

Kevin, I took my oath very seriously, and quite honestly, had you tried that bit of diatribe, I would have absolutely gone out of my way to find ANYTHING to hang you with, just to prove to you that your weren't NEARLY as clever as you would fashion yourself to be.

 

You know, I hate getting an "Offer to appear in this united states' Kangaroo court" as you have implied, but some folks make their beds much easier for others to allow them to lay in it.

 

My advice stands... If you are young, you will be more seriously scruitenized. If you are older, say in your late 20's or into your 30's and you are professional, polite, and cooperative with the jack booted thug who has stopped you from pursueing your "natural fredooms", you might just get off with JUST a warning... Being polite does do well for you... Cops are humans... Some are decent, many are on power trips, and if you act like a smart assed know it all to them, you will guarantee that you have waived your rights to getting a break... Pursueing your "Natural Freedoms" is optional...

 

I'm done with this thread and this diatribe...

Mike

[Kevin Shasteen]

Mike,

 

I also take the "Oaths" of our officers and Public Officials very serious. What I dont like is the "Rock and Hardplace" that our city halls put our officers in.

 

I am "ALWAYS" polite w/police officers because I know the job they are expected to carry out.

 

I have driven away from many a traffic stop without being cited, simply because I took the time out of my day to "Engage" in real conversation with the officer and I have always been "Respectful" in every stop for whatever reason...as I have said earlier-their presence is comforting to me-they should get the "Bad Guys"...but not for the cause of raising revenue in an "Injurious Claim".

 

If you can comprehend the shift in thinking that a painted line on a street is the "Accusor" you will agree that that very same painted line is a "Non-Entity"...it is a "Fiction" and cant make a claim against a Flesh and Blood Human.

 

I agree-we have probably taken this as far as we can. FWIW: I take the law very serious-and that is why I have researched it to the point I have.

 

I take the law as serious as you did your oath.

 

Theory has its place for it always precludes application and the abuses of application always result in "Debate" in "Theory". Both the theory and application should always be understood and never assumed.

 

Lets talk cars now-sorry if I ended up on the wrong side of anyone; no more speeding ticket talk from me (seriously-no more from me).

 

This is a great site & I intend to be apart of it w/out knowingly or unknowingly ever offending anyone.

 

Kevin,

(Yea,Still an Inliner)

[Lockjaw]

For the racing ticket, you need to know what the other guy told the cops. If he spilled the beans, you are pretty much screwed.

 

The thing is,when dealing with the police, is you have to balance between not saying anything, telling the truth, or telling a lie.

 

My friends know that I will not tell or admit anything to the police if they pull me over. I will politely say that I think they are mistaken, or whatever, but admitting, no way.

 

The best thing you guys can do is break down the officers story and try to show that she did not get your tag number, she lost site of you, etc. Was she close enough to make a positive identification? Is there another car like your brothers in your town?

 

Your brother should not testify, IMO.

 

He is lucky it is only a 10 point ticket, here it is a suspension for 60 days I think.

 

And this is for Mike. Not all cops are bad, I am sure you were a nice one. However, I have run into more cops that were pricks than cops that were nice. The best way to stay out of trouble besides obeying the law is to drive a car that slides under their radar. My ZX does that. No one pays it any attention.

 

I know they are out there doing their job, and alot of times it is thankless. But to many people can recite horror stories about some cop abusing his authority, and lieing in court to make a ticket stick. Complain to thier bosses, sometimes that helps.

[Mikelly]

LockJaw, Believe me when I say this... I'm 100% with you guys... Having been one, I know most of the dirty little tricks cops like to pull... Unfortunately, they are a necessety for the moral majorety to survive in today's "Civilized" society... However, there were several Very real and VERY GOOD reasons I decided to change professions... not the least of which was the "GOD COMPLEX" I saw taking over people I look to as peers and mentors...

 

Mike

[aviatorx]

This has got to be one of the most cynical, inane threads I've ever seen on this boad! Rather than discussing safety, build-ups, tech info, successful swaps, etc., the board has degraded into a ill guided quasi-legal stew of heresay on how to badmouth a cop/judge and get away with it?

 

I don't know whether to be more ashamed at posting to this issue or by having read it, but I'm certain of one thing - this BBS is WAY off track in pursuing any sort of legal wordplay on topics like this amongst a host of VERY impressionable young members who are pursuing a hybrid build up!

 

How much wasted time has gone into parsing words, disecting posts, and arguing the benefits of sticking your foot in your mouth? This post has gone from "how many tickets have you gotten", to a reflection on a horrible accident, to a useless diatribe on what the meaning of "is" is .....

The facts of (this) life is: if you reclessly endanger the life of another you DESERVE what's coming to you.

 

This BBS wasn't set up on the premise on breaking existing motor vehicle law and discussing how to aviod punishment, was it?....If so, change the charter. If this is now the seat of the dissident movement for a new republic, count me out.

 

Let's kill this thread. I don't think any of us wants to be the one to plant the seed in any kids head that it's OK to speed, race on the public roads, to be a menace in their vehicle, argue minutiae with a cop, OR to feed line of misguided advice on how to beat a ticket.

[Mikelly]

AviatorX, I'm not gonna kill it because I believe that there is good information here... There are places on this site for any number of topics, and yes we usually keep things less emotional and more technical... This thread was in an appropriate place for the original context. It DID spiral and degenerate off topic... But I think that there is merit in much of it, regardless the side of the fence you sit.

 

Further, I believe that the vast majorety of us agree with you that if someone does something reckless in nature, that person deserves the punishment and it should fit the crime. MY EXACT Comment offline to Kevin was that I don't want the impressionable youth of this site to think it is OK to go out there and get out of a charge that he is guilty of... You take the chance and get caught, shame on you... You take the chance and a tragedy occurs, I hope you get the JUST punishment that society and the courts deem fitting... At least I HOPE that is the message they are getting...

 

Mike Kelly

[Lockjaw]

While I will be the first person to voice my disdain for police officers in general, I have found that with age comes a realization that I am not young and invincible either. Yes I have gotten my share of tickets, most of which I deserved, and I have gotten a few that I did not. I guess those sort of make up for all the stuff I did that I did not get caught doing.

 

I know those guys/gals have a job to do, and there are parts of it that are thankless, like the one's who died in NYC last year. I am sure they have frustrations like not being able to do what is effective in their area's, like profiling. I am also sure it is frustrating when they run into a chump with a good lawyer who is out of jail before they have done the paperwork.

 

You know what, though, that's life. There are always going to be people who take stuff to the extreme, like liberals. (Sorry could not resist)There are always going to be people who break the law and get away with it, and there are people who don'tbreak the law and get busted anyway. Our system is not perfect, and if we fixed a few of its flaws, it could be better.

 

I think most of the people on here have a pretty good track record of trying to hold people to obeying the law, and accepting responsibility for their actions, whatever they may be. I know for sure Mike does, and so does Pete and ScottieGNZ and a few others that are out there that I don't see as often. I do to, and for the most part I am a law abiding citizen who gets along well with the law enforcement in my area.

 

That said, there are still police officers out there that treat you like you are a thug, even though you are polite, cordial, and agreeable with them. Those are the one's I don't like. I also will make no bones about the fact that I say nothing beyind what is required, and just like my insurance co says, don't admit fault for anything.

 

Call me a hipocrit or whatever. I do my best to obey the law. After all, if a police officer askes you if you know why he pulled you over, are you going to say " yes sir it is because I was doing 125 in a 45, and I was racing that guy in the Z28, and I had 3 beers at supper" ?

 

I would like to see more emphasis put on them doing things like giving people tickets for passing in the emergency lane, running up the emergency lane to merge into traffic, running red lights on purpose, pulling out in front of people when the road is wide open behind you, and busting people playing loud freakin music at an intersection, oh yeah, and trucks hauling rocks without a TIGHT cover. All I am asking for is some balance.

 

SO I guess you can say I am generally in favor of obeying the laws. However, I would be lying if I didn't say deep down inside, sometimes, I just like the rebelous thought of getting away with something. Sometimes that comes to the surface in what I say, and I still firmly believe you should do whatever you can to keep from being convicted of a traffic offense. If you get convicted, pay the fine and go on your merry way.

[Pop N Wood]

Sorry for stirring up the mud guys. I was trying to understand the gist of Kevin’s contentions and thought I would have some fun with this thread. I figured anyone who tired of it would do what I wasn't able to do and just stop reading it.

 

At the risk of inciting another riot, I would just like to point out I was never trying to either defend or condemn cops or their actions. I was merely trying to point out what the cop could and couldn’t do, and that maybe Kevin’s objections could be better directed. I was also trying to issue the same warning that someone else vocalized and hopefully prevent people from creating more trouble for themselves.

 

Lastly, I wasn’t offended by any of this (although that “Since Jim Powers is a Lawyer..†comment came pretty close ) and hope everyone else feels the same.

[SleeperZ]

I'll post my $0.02 here too. I think this was a very meaningful and well balanced discussion of the issues at hand. There is much food for thought here, and I do not believe anyone here is advocating breaking the "law", but, in fact, advocating education on the justice system. I am law (and ordinanace ) abiding, I sometimes speed, but with age I am very cautious do my very best not to endanger anyone else.

 

If I am confronted with a traffic infraction I feel is unjust, I will certainly take it to court, and may even consider not signing the ticket. If I screwed up, I will take the consequences.

 

I LOVE this board!

[Kevin Shasteen]

Originally posted by Jim Powers:

.., Lastly, I wasn’t offended (although that “Since Jim Powers is a Lawyer..†comment came pretty close )

Jim,

 

All I meant by that statement is that I knew you would have a Black's Law Dictionary; and nothing more.

 

Educating yourself on not harming others as well as the Legal System we have (Which is the best in the world) only benefits all of us.

 

Kevin,

(Yea,Still an Inliner)

[pparaska]

aviatorx has a point that some people that might not otherwise think through what Kevin is posting about might get themselves in a heap of trouble or take even more chances thinking they could get away with even more challenges to the "jurisdiction".

 

But maybe the back and forth have brought both sides out, and aviatorx has done well by pointing this issue out.

 

Once again, HybridZ has been quite educational. I know I learned alot.

 

Then again, I'll just sign the ticket, too - and take it to court like I ALWAYS have.

[Guest Anonymous]

Whoa hold on there. Let us have a sense of humor before all of us offenders are burned at the stake and declared outcasts for corrupting our precious youth by turning them into Road Rage Killers or rather yet "forcing them into Road Rage Killers" by our stories. Punished? Banishment? LOL Give these younger members credit for common sense in making their own minds up without censorship. I lost my driving privileges for five years and that is a PITA and punishment. Is not this the "IM Telling You" thread where you let the loose end drag a little or spot off a little steam.

[aviatorx]

Think for a minute what goes on here. Quite often someone will post a 'kill' and get patted on the back for taking on yet another challenger and leaving him in the dust - in what is most certainly a street race - and which is most certainly illegal in every state in the US. Don't think for a moment that you haven't encouraged others to do the same, whether it happens today, tomorrow, or sometime after they've enhanced their Z with yet another power upgrade ......

 

If you choose to race, it's your decision, and I've been as guilty of it as anyone else here when presented the challenge at a stop light or on the highway. What I think has gotten out of hand is exactly what Pete has pointed out - if you get caught, shame on you. You've been baited into a street race, and you ran with it. If you involve an innocent party and cause harm, then may the full weight of the justice system slap you.

 

Petes recolection of the kid in the Subaru is a perfect example, albeit one where the race in the drivers head resulted in the death of his passengers as well. That driver is exactly the kind of person that needs not to be encouraged, but properly steered into the right direction. Driving fast can be fun, but do it in an atmosphere where the only risk is to you and your vehicle, not among the general public.

 

Perhaps a lot of the energy spent here can be channeled into encouraging others to go to a driving school, to participate in a car club and enter a car into a a road race series, drag strip, or other venue to get their driving thrills?

 

I guess what got me going was the effort spent in showing methods to manipulate words in an effort to avoid a ticket for a moving violation. If you did it, take the ticket and pay it...lesson learned. If you are innocent, there is a venue for you, and it's called court. Plain. Simple.

 

I have a 13 ear old son who has been working on my Z with me, and someday hopes to drive it. I think the sweat equity he's putting into it will earn him that priveledge. Since day one in the garage he's constantly asked "how fast will it go?" ....I refuse to answer - he doesn't need to know, and I will not give him a figure to attempt when he does drive it. I did let him read this entire thread, and his comments about the Subaru driver were right on "that's just plain stupid". But when he reads about some of the kills posted, his eyes light up and he immagines himself doing the same. He even points out the ricers on the street and mentions how they will 'go down' to the Z .....

 

Dont think for a moment there isn't encouragement here.

[SleeperZ]

There is an issue of principle that has been expressed as well.

 

To an impressionable potential street racer, there certainly can be the interpretation of "encouragement", especially in the kill stories, and also in this thread. But that requires the interpretation of mincing words to get out of something you don't deserve.

 

The principle is we have a unique justice system, unequaled in all the world, as it is based on the concept of "freedom" (life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness). With that freedom comes much greater responsibility, including driving safely. If you hurt someone, be prepared for some consequences. Like it or not, we will always have irresponsible people who flout the traffic laws.

 

I don't believe by refusing to sign a ticket, or by taking things to court, that we are trying to evade personal responsibility. If there was no victim, who is the injured party? If you wish to abide by the ordinances, simply sign the ticket, pay your fine and be done with it. But if you don't believe the traffic stops are handled fairly, or you have not been treated fairly, you owe the justice system and the local authorites a wake up call on what the requirements of the law are.