Hobart vs. Miller vs. Lincoln

[JaysZ]

Looking at the Hobart Handler 140 , the Millermatic 140 MIG, and the Lincoln 135. What would you guys pick and why? I'm looking for a unit that is easy to learn with, durable, and something that can handle my eventual growth in skill. Thanks in advance!

[Jolane]

Those are all good. Personally, I would lean towards the Lincoln or the Hobart. I own 2 Miller Welders and 1 Miller Plasma, but when talking about the small machines like those, I think the other two are just as good and are less costly. Take a look on the hobart forum (http://www.hobartwelders.com/mboard). They really like the Hobart Handlers over there.

I have a Lincoln 3200HD (110V from Home Depot) and it welds great on sheet metal. Whatever you get, you want to make sure to get a gas bottle and solid wire (try your best not to use flux core unless working outside on heavier metal).

Good Luck.

Joshua

 

Oh, do a search for refurbished Hobarts as well. Some of the people are getting insanely low prices on dinged and dented HH!

[JMortensen]

The Hobart doesn't have the infinite voltage control, at least the previous model didn't. Unless they've added that feature, I'd go with the Miller or the Lincoln. There was another thread maybe yesterday or the day before where a couple people were saying that infinite voltage adjustments weren't necessary. I have to disagree, especially when welding thin rusty Datsun sheet metal.

 

I have the Miller 135, did have my first problem with it just a couple days ago, but I think it was a fluke thing and with no replacement parts it's back to it's normal badass welding. I can't say enough good things about it, despite that one hiccup. Makes me look like I know what I'm doing.

[JaysZ]

thanks for the input. sounds like the miller sounds like a great choice then. lookin for some refurb'd units... hoping to score one under $500 =) i still need the helmet, gloves, gas, some wire and a grinder at the very least. ouch.

[JaysZ]

saw a Lincoln Pro Mig 135... any thoughts on this? whats the diff between the "Plus" model and the "Pro"?

[Here comes trouble]

You want that heat range dial as Jon pointed out.

[grumpyvette]

Ive got several welders in the shop, these two (below) are getting used alot, the reason I bring this up is that once you start welding frames, motor mounts ,ETC. you really will appreciate the extra power a 180 amp class welder has VS the smaller 130 amp class and the differance in cost while significant makes purchaseing the larger machine a better deal in the long run, VS one now and upgrading later

 

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=91887

 

I paid about $500 for the hobard on sale at harbor freight

 

http://thetoolsource.com/thetoolsource/scripts/prodview.asp?idproduct=360

 

I bought the LINCOLD generator/welder at home depot for $2400

 

now I prefer TIG welders but your basic stick welder can do a good deal of what needs to be done in the hot rodder hobby

theres lots of guys that can,t weld without a MIG welder, MIG is good but its not the only or the best or the least expensive route, just the easiest in most cases

learning to weld at least at a minimal level is ALMOST MANDATORY in the hot rodding hobby! By almost I mean they don,t take you out and shoot you if you don,t know how but there will be times when you may want to do it yourself when you find out the cost differance between doing it yourself and what a quality welding shop charges.

I would STRONGLY SUGGEST contacting your local college or trade schools to find a night class in WELDING BASICS, for MIG,TIG,ARC/stick, and TORCH welding, BEFORE buying a welder, and paying attention in class.....it will save you THOUSANDS of dollars and can even MAKE you a decent side income once youve mastered the basics and purchased a decent welder

 

http://www.stockcarracing.com/techarticles/82101/

 

http://www.alpharubicon.com/elect/tigbasic1.htm

 

http://www.alpharubicon.com/elect/tigbasic2.htm

 

http://www.autobody101.com/articles/article.php?title=Expanded+Welding

 

 

http://www.autobody101.com/articles/article.php?title=Mig+Welding

 

http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/gtwelding.html

 

http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=284481&Main=276563#Post284481

 

http://www.millermotorsports.com/mboard/index.php?

 

as an example the exhaust on my corvette is full length 3"stainless with dual (X)s and would cost me in excess of $1000 to buy and have installed, I purchased the parts and installed /welded it up for under $300....it does not take many projects like that to more than recover the cost of the welder and knowing its done correctly and exactly how you wanted it done has a benefit of its own! btw when you go to purchase a welder

 

http://www.weldplus.com/tig-welders.htm

 

http://metals.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aws.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmwf%2Fforum_show.pl%3FmarkRead%3D1

 

http://store.cyberweld.com/tigwelders1.html

 

http://www.htpweld.com/

 

http://www.hobartwelders.com/mboard/

[Mikelly]

I have the Lincoln SP125 which is a couple of steps down from that 135 pro and mine is fabu... Loveit.. Great welder for less than $600 new... If you can get the 135 Plus or pro for under $500, you can't go wrong so long as the voltage control is a sweeping potentiometer and not a clicker with 4-5 settings... My lower end unit has a sweeping potentiometer, so I'd suspect the two you mention do as well...

 

I love my lincoln.

Mike

[johnc]

I would choose between the three based on the best deal I could get from the dealer. I wouldn't necessarily choose the cheapest price, just which dealer threw in the most "stuff" that you will need to get started. A good auto-darkening helmet for 50% off list would probably seal the deal for me.

[JaysZ]

thanks for the tips guys, i'll definately keep looking then. hopefully a nice used unit will turn up. i'll be looking for a 180amp unit (MIG)

 

btw, another great link:

http://www.aussieweld.com.au/arcwelding/index.htm

[Jolane]

I know that others opinions are different, but I would seriously consider getting a tapped voltage unit, and not an infinitely variable machine. This will save a lot of headaches when learning, and is just not needed in most cases.

 

Besides going to classes, read up on both the hobart and the miller boards. There are many expert welders on the miller board who are very helpful. There is also a lot of good discussion about infinite variable voltage there. Appearantly most race shops use the MM210, which is not infinite variable voltage. Not only will the machine be easier to use, but the welds will probably be better quality with the tapped unit, unless of course you weld for a living and can really dial in a machine. One person to search about on the miller board is "Dan", who has many pictures/hints/tips/settings/etc posted.

 

Sorry if this sounds like a rant, I don't mean for it to be. In the end what you really want is a capable machine that you can use effectively for a reasonable price. The most important things in my mind are ease of use and maximum capability/usability. For automotive related work, any of the big brands will work work great (ESAB, MILLER, LINCOLN, HOBART, HTP).

 

Finally, I do agree that if you have 220V available, buy the bigger machine (~185A range). It will cost more initially, but should be much more useful if you decide to do heavier stuff later on.

 

Joshua

[Mikelly]

Two hours welding with a tapped vs. infinately adjustable machine, trying to weld 35 year old sheet metal to new metal will change your mind. With those tapped units, you are stuck with a few basic settings. Tuning the machine to the material being welded, especially if this is your only machine and you want to weld thin 20-22 gage sheet steel and .120 DOM tubing/ 1/8th inch plate steel, and most other metals we work with on Zcars.

 

Welding isn't rocket science so long as buy a book or two, read, learn to clean your materials and prep them properly, and use the right gas for the material being welded and understand how to adjust the machine and the gas to that of the materials being used.

 

Think about it... With mig welders You've got two knobs... The wire speed and the voltage/ heat and you've got a regulator with one knob on it. Most decent welders come with decent manuals to walk you through the steps and what setting to use for which materials and why.

 

If you can't figure that out, you probably shouldn't be welding in the first place.

 

Just my $.02

Mike

[Here comes trouble]

Agree with Mike.......... MY Crapsman has a high and low heat range No dial. I know of no small wire size avaiable that will weld on the low setting because the smallest wire will only weld on the the high heat setting. To lower the heat setting, I ues a 50 foot extension cord between the electrical outlet and the "Crapsman". Everytime I weld , I am still learning to adapt to this welder's limitation of an absent heat range dial. My liitle Lincoln that was stolen had the heat dial and when it souded like bacon frying....I was welding. I learned real quik to set those dials

[grumpyvette]

"Think about it... With mig welders You've got two knobs... The wire speed and the voltage/ heat and you've got a regulator with one knob on it. Most decent welders come with decent manuals to walk you through the steps and what setting to use for which materials and why. "

 

thats why I prefer TORCH and TIG welders over all the others, you can EXACTLY and instantly controll the heat and feed rates INSTANTLY by moving the feed rod of material or the heat source distance or angle plus the heat source temp is finely adjustable on a TORCH and both the pollarity and to a large extent voltage are trigger controlled with a TIG welder, plus the dials allow the basic range to be set

 

yeah, I weld with STICK,TORCH,TIG and MIG, and while most guys prefer MIG ,for the ease and speed, Ill take a TIG or a TORCH in most applications, simply for the more precise control on the weld process, speed is of little concern to me VS controll of the weld process

[Jolane]

I agree with Grumpy here. I much prefer using my TIG over the MIG when I can. Unfortunately though, the TIG is not practical for chassis stuff IMO. It is hard enough to get in a good position with good view to put down good MIG welds. When I can take the part off though, TIG here I come. I used TIG for engine mounts, tranny mounts, diff mount, some body work, on and on.

 

As for tapped output versus infinite, I have used both. I own two tapped machines, my dad has an infinite one (big older Lincoln). You can get quality welds from either. There is a lot more to it though than two knobs, regulator, etc. IMO, when Miller added WST to the infinite voltage model, that just made the infinite control less useful. It is one (wire speed) or the other (voltage) to fine tune the arc. You don't need both as long as the voltage is close and the arc is the type you want (short circuit, globular, or spray). Stickout also greatly affects these things, as does wire diameter.

 

With these small machines, you are not going to be in the spray mode. This narrows it down a bit. On a taped machine, set the tap to the recommended setting for material thickness, adjust the wire speed and fine tune the wire speed until you get the arc you want. This is not very hard to get a high quality bead. Travel speed will change slightly as wire speed is changed, not a big deal. On infinite voltage, set voltage to the recommended value, adjust wire speed (if you can independently) until you get a quality arc. Fine tune with voltage. Not a whole lot of difference here. What if the wire speed is completely independent of voltage? Set voltage to recommended setting, adjust wire speed. Fine tune with either, most likely wire speed. Sounds the same as a tapped machine.

 

It is generally stated that a lot of professional weldors like the small Lincolns for dirty metal work. The arc is usually more tolerant of the dirty. Search the Miller Forum for more info on this. Also look for WST. Most tend to not like it much. The whole point is to make the machine easier for the user. This is odd since they changed the machine from tapped to infinite. But why? Well, from the horses mouth, because of the (mis?) conception that infinite is better from the competition. They were taking hits from the competition in feature comparisons. It was basically marketing, and the fix was/is WST. Hobart seems to sell A LOT of machines though using a tapped setup, and MANY people love them. They are also lower priced.

 

I don't think that infinite voltage is bad, but I do think it is highly overrated on the small machines. Use a good tapped machine (NOT a high/low only like the crapsman referred to above) and you need nothing more for what we do. When you get into spray transfer, that is another story, but then you are talking MM251 and up. I can spray with my MM210 with 98/2 gas, but haven't needed to. Globular is plenty good enough, just requires more cleanup of spatter. BTW, spray is really for heavy structural stuff, not automotive type things (except maybe axles perches on 4X4's).

 

It is your money. If you want an effective, "inexpensive" machine, look at the tapped Lincoln's or Hobarts. I own three Miller machines and a Lincoln, and the little Lincoln is awesome considering its size. Past the "175 Amp" range though, I choose Miller.

 

I can perform great welds on very thin steel (20 -22 gauge) to thick steel (1/2") with one machine, one wire, one gas. I can even weld medium aluminum (1/8" - 3/8") with the same machine and my spoolgun, argon bottle. The MM210 is perfect, if not slightly overkill, for most people. It is no bigger in footprint than a 175A machine on a stand with a bottle strapped to the back. It is more costly, but also has more power and probably a better resell value.

 

Finally, look at Cyberweld.com. They might not be the absolute cheapest, but are typically within $20 of anyone else, and have EXCELLENT service!

 

Good Luck!

Joshua

[JaysZ]

i just signed up for a class for MIG (though TIG is available) and will hold off on buying until I try the course out to see whether I'll like a MIG or TIG better. There are 3 courses available, which would you take?

 

1) Intro to welding through various processes

2) Intro to MIG

3) Intro to TIG

 

ALSO, concerning helmets... anyone have an opinion of the chin strap controlled helmet? http://www.accustrike.com/

[Mikelly]

Jay, that is the smartest thing you could do. My guess is you'll learn what all the fuss is about in that class and be able to draw your own conclusions... Bottom line is there isn't a wrong answer... It's preference!

 

Mike

[OlderThanMe]

I prefer the Miller machines since that is what my welding school is completely outfitted with. Right now you can buy a Miller 135 MIG at www.cyberweld.com for $604 with free shipping. you just have to get the bottle and flowmeter...and it plugs into a regular wall circuit...I am looking at a Miller 175 MIG to have more penetration welding on thicker material such as frame or suspension sections...Lincoln has just been very resistant to donating welding machines to our school.

 

but always use ESAB for plasma cutters...those ROCK!!! way better than the school's Miller plasma cutter...or Thermal Dynamics...very good.

[Boobala]

I know jack about welding, but I have a co-worker who has been doing automotive welding for 40 years, and when I showed him the Millermatic 135 I was considering, he said it look like a good product and a good deal. He uses a high end Snap-On unit, but likes many features of the Miller, specifically the "INFINITE VOLTAGE CONTROL with WIRE FEED SPEED TRACKING," and "STANDARD BUILT-IN SOLID STATE CONTACTOR CIRCUIT."

 

Millermatic 135 with Cart and 60 Cu Ft Cylinder (free shipping) $735.00 (eBay stores)

[JMortensen]

FWIW I have the Miller cart, and I think it's designed for the 175. My 135 is loose on the cart. I've seen some in the Harbor Freight catalogs that look like they would fit my welder better. It's a mild annoyance, but the Miller cart was 2 to 3 times the cost of the Harbor Freight cart IIRC.

 

Then again, maybe I should just weld one up!