JoeinCA Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Timz To answer your question, no i wasnt on a track when i got into my accident in my Z. And my 4th to 2nd shift wasn't the reason i lost control of the vehicle. After going from 4th(low RPMs), I applied enough brakes to lock the wheels and throw the car sideways, then i revved to around 4-5 k and dropped the clutch in second to light the tires up a bit, and when i went to shift into third and end the idiocy, my left rear tire touched one of the reflector dots in the center of the road and there wasn't much i could do from there but make sure that i didnt hit the curb with the front and back at the same time... SO, I dont know why i posted that, because i know i screwed up and i'm not trying to justify anything. I think my message is... everyone can be stupid, and learning lessons can be painful. But you should only have to learn respect for cars once, and hopefully you dont hurt yourself or anyone else when you learn this lesson. I can't tell you how many times I've run the memory of my accident through my head and thought how lucky i was that my stupidity didnt hurt me or anyone else, and taught me that the street is not a place to do stupid show-off manuevers. I gotta go buy some suspension busshings, and pay a little more for my accident, lol.... later, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Originally posted by joeinCA:SO, I dont know why i posted that, because i know i screwed up and i'm not trying to justify anything. I think my message is... everyone can be stupid, and learning lessons can be painful. But you should only have to learn respect for cars once, and hopefully you dont hurt yourself or anyone else when you learn this lesson. Joe - sorry I kind of singled you out, but I was seeing an awful lot of harsh critisism of this guy, but if you think about it, he apparently understood that his skills were not up to the capabilities of his new car, and was trying to improve his skills in as safe a manner as possible. At least he wasn't like many of the poseur assholes that buy these cars and just assume that they can drive fast. The message that I was trying to get across was pretty much the same as you mentioned above - IMHO, everybody should have looked at that video and said "Wow - look how quickly things can go bad - what if something like that happened to me?". But instead, all that anybody was saying was "That guy has no skills - what an *******", which struck me as being pretty arrogant. Things happen really fast at speed on a track, and the slightest lapse of concentration, or miscalculation can cause big problems. At first glance, it looks like the guy just downshifted for no reason. But if you read the report, and put two and two together, it's not too hard to think of a scenario where a 2 gear downshift at that point might have made sense at that moment in time to the guy driving the car. For instance - this was the first time down that straight at speed. Every other time through that section, his speed was regulated by slower traffic. So, it's quite conceivable that every other time through that section, he exited the turn in second gear. He was doing 100mph in the straight, but if he was braking for the entrance to the turn, he could have been well into the viable speed range for 2nd gear. His only real problem might have been simply a poorly executed heel and toe downshift. If the slide started after he had initiated his turn-in, then there was literally no time for him to recover - it took slightly more than 1 second for him to hit the wall. As I mentioned before - human physiology pretty much dictates reaction times for unexpected events to about 1 second. So yes - this (or something like it) could have happend to most of us. Also, I agree that there is a great deal of innate ability required to become a Fangio or a Senna. However, the argument that I was seeing was this guy will never be a Senna, so he had no business being there (a performance driving school). If that's true, then we all had better sell our Hybrid Zs and buy Tercels, because I'm pretty sure there aren't any Sennas on this forum, either. Sorry if I kind of went off on everybody, but this just rubbed me the wrong way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinCA Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 No worries. I think that the problem people had with the guy was not that he made a mistake while trying to learn how to handle himself on a track, it was that he was doing it in a viper. If the guy has enough cash to go through 2 vipers, then he certainly has enough to buy himself a lessor car and hone his skills with that. I raced R/C cars for a good portion of my life, and i was (if i may say so myself) pretty talented. But i'm not saying that i had no learning curve, i wrecked and broke and crashed numerous cars by making reckless, or just stupid decisions. Luckily, repairing an r/c car is alot less expensive than real cars... seeya, Joe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Originally posted by joeinCA:I think that the problem people had with the guy was not that he made a mistake while trying to learn how to handle himself on a track, it was that he was doing it in a viper. If the guy has enough cash to go through 2 vipers, then he certainly has enough to buy himself a lessor car and hone his skills with that. Well...I can't argue with that. At least he wasn't wrecking Zcars... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinCA Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Ouch... heh, you know what i did after the accident? I bought a new unibody and enough suspension components to completely rebuild it.... and then spent 5 months rebuilding and trying to restore it... i just drove her again a few days ago, I still have a ways to go before i can take her out to a racing instruction course, but i'm working towards it.. The sheer amount of work that less than 2 seconds can cause is enough to steer anyone away from driving like a maniac....if they cant afford to have the work done for them . Joe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Even experienced folks goof up. During last year's OTC I was braking for turn 1 at Willow Springs, which is a 4th gear turn in an ITS 240Z, and I put the clutch in and down shifted to 3rd. Luckily, I realized what I did as the rear started to lock up and I put the clutch back in. I went way wide on the corner and almost ended up in the dirt. I wasn't paying attention and was looking in my rear view mirrors at a Lotus 340R that was right behind me. I almost wrecked that poor guy and his brand new race car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Originally posted by joeinCA:Ouch... ...oops - didn't realize that your story was in a Z - didn't mean to add insult to injury. Sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Damn! That's why I rarely drive a student's car. And even when I do, I drive conservatively and shift slowly. If I want to give a student a fast ride, I'll take them in my own car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Now that's stupid. Never have let an instructor drive my car for just that reason. If I crash it, no problem, someone else, BIG problem. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_H Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 TimZ, I'm with you. First, I applaud the guy for wrecking one car and having the courage to come out on the track to try and improve his skills. That still doesn't change that it is an unfortunate accident. As John pointed out, it still happens to those of us who have lots of time on the track. Try loosing your brakes going into a corner at 110mph+! A quick shift to third then second to lock up the rear tires was all I could do to keep from going off. Saved the car, pulled right in. Changed underwear and went out again. And Dan, you don't want to get me started about driving students cars. Bad idea all around, and for exactly the reason you posted. I can think of no legitimate time to drive a students car. Not saying they won't learn something, but if I need to show them something, that is what my passenger seat is for. If I have a full blown race car with one seat? I do have a tow vehicle and friends who are instructors with two seats. Again, I see absolutely no reason to drive a students car and no good coming from it. Period. If I know the student, I might consider it, but only as John pointed out, very slowly and conservatively. But even then, the worst can happen. A fellow M Roadster type was at his first event ever and the instructor was driving his car in the first session,(on the second lap). The car in front of them dropped coolant on the track, the instructor spun and lost control. Over $12k of damage and that guy will likely never go on track again. There are just too many unexpected things on track when it is not your own car. -Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Baldwin Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 A few months ago at a COMSCC event at NHIS, an instructor accidentally "upshifted" from 3rd to 2nd (trying for 4th) while accelerating out of turn 12 which leads onto the front straight. In his student's brand new 2002 M3. Totalled. I don't know the insurance/legal outcome. In the words of Steve McQueen, "It can happen". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Yea, it is kinda hypocritical to hammer the guy if you've never been on a course with an instructor. It can be overwhelming... People react to presure differently... When I was an Glynco (Federal Police Academy) we tried to help this student learn to drive agressively. The guy got his license at 16 and never drove again. He lived in Washington DC and took public transportation everywhere... He was 26 when he got into the academy... We worked with him for 4 weeks and tried to get him to PASS them minimum requirements, but after he tore up one car his confidence just plumitted. He failed out of the course... That is an extreme case, but I've seen guys come completely unglued at the track... It can be very stressfull. Crashing an $80K car and then having to explain it to your family and friends... Think about it. Would you want that stress?? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synlubes Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 It`s one thing to be in the drivers seat and totally different to be in the pass seat! I`ve gone out for some "hot" laps with friends that are racers and instructors and to tell the truth It`s a bit scary! To sit in the pass seat and have NO control over what`s going on, kinda makes your a$$whole tighten up. It gives me a whole other view of the track driving thing! Next time you go to a track event, get your instructor to take you out for some "HOT Laps"(even if you have to give up some of your drive time). Things do happen quikly and mistakes are made(been there, done that)! So once again, Hats Off To The Racers & Instructors ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 I do not find humor in someone else's misfortune. We all make mistake and will make more. I do not think it was in good taste for the "instructor" to post his student's accident. I have completed 4 track days with an instructor and was moved up to the solo status. I have a tough time driving within my limits and have spun out at 100mph too. I was fortunate enough to have a wide run off area and the luxuary of experienced drives on the track with me. I was lucky he was not. He was driving in a controled safe environment and only damaged his property. That is his business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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