240ZR Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 This bone head in a car club i hang out with SWARES that b.c his 4.6 Mach 1 mustang makes as much as my carbed 5.7 zz4 that FI must be FAR superior... I know this is not true... the reason his engine makes more power is b/c he has the 32 valve heads... and it breaths alot betters thats all...... Was there not a thing In a Main stream Maginzie recently about How FI Dose Not make more power over Carbs? and infact looses you some power? the only reason that the they use FI on everything is B/c its easyer to keep tuned... its cleaner... and you get better milage.... Also if Carbs where SO far inferior would they not just stop using them.... and last i checked most Drag cars dont use FI...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 I think EFI has the potential to make more power than a carbeurator. Remember, for instance, that in general, cabeurators are centrally placed and dont' necessarily always give the best, most even distribution of fuel, and they also tend to supply the fuel in droplets, a lot of that goes to waste in the combustion process. Fuel injectors are usually placed in the intake ports inches away from the intake valve of each cylinder, perfect distribution, and modern fuel injectors finely atomize the fuel ensuring a much complete burn and more power from the same amount of fuel. remember also, that carbs have no way to compensate for changes in weather, altitude, and all the other factors that can all affect the air fuel ratio... unless you're going to go out and tune your carb every day and night or whenever you change altitude? EFI is always going to strive for the 'perfect' air fuel ratio, giving most complete combustion, and presumably, best performance. Modern EFI, some of the smarter systems, can constantly adjust things like ignition timing as well, always giving you the most advanced timing it can w/o causing knock. And of course, it can pull back timing when you do get knock, saving damage to your engine. I have seen too many articles, or people talking on forums, talk about how they switched from carbs to EFI and gained significant power from it. Even 'carb loving' classic car mags like Hot Rod have been 'giving in to the pressure' and doing a lot more articles on EFI, and I think have said openly that a properly tuned EFI setup will always give better power, more efficiently, over a properly tuned carb. Not saying carbs are bad... carbs are great for their simplicity, and its not like you CAN'T make good power on carbs... of course you can. And for less money and time invested. Carbs went the way of the dino more for emissions reasons than anything else, but in the end, I think it is a fact to say EFI does hold the advantage. And by the way, I think you friends mustang makes as much power as your zz4 because of BOTH factors, the better 4 valve heads, and the more efficient running EFI. It's no secret that modern engines make the same power as engines of the past with way less displacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobythevan Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 oven vs microwave cassette vs CD analog vs digital camera carb vs EFI You can put EFI on a SBC for the same price as a new carb ($400) reasons to have a carb 1. You can bolt it on in 15 minutes and go (good if you don't understand EFI) 2. You race the car and don't care how it runs outside the race rpm band.(this is where most carb'd people are, I have to believe) IMO, if the car is a daily driver put EFI on it and you will be happier in the long run. Sometimes it sounds cool though when your carb is loading up, like you have a really lumpy cam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 There are 18 different arguements about this very issue all the time. My opinion is that for peak performance on a given platform, it depends on a number of factors. I can tell you this much though... I hate carbs. If you're tuning for max performance, there are a number of uncontrollable weather related factors that will impact how a carburetor performs in that situation. Fuel injection, when set up properly, will perform more consistand over a broader range of conditions. You simply can't get the same level of performance consistancy with carbs, without breaking out the tools and tweeking the carb, or cracking it opend to change something. Not worth the hassle in my opinion. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 I've had both. My 340 'Cuda was carb'd, as well as many other vehicles I've owned. Obviously all my Z's have been FI. I'll even take the FI of the old L28 over a carb just because of the reliability and that it stays 'tuned' when you have significant elevation or weather changes. I think the LS1 is a prime example of what a good FI/electronic ignition car can do. In stock factory form it makes equal or better HP than the carb'd sbc's and better fuel economy. The two go hand-in-hand. A better fuel management & spark control system will provide more efficient and complete fuel usage which will equate to more hp and better fuel economy. We can talk exceptions all day long but for a set and leave alone system you can't beat FI & electronic ignition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Here is a good thread referencing an article where they dynoed a FI LS engine, then swapped in a carb and dynoed it again. http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=106275&highlight=500 Like the guys said above, in the controlled environment of a dyno room you can dial in a carb to do pretty well. Throw it into the real world with bad gas, humid days, high altitude and the carbs needs to be manually retuned. Saw a thing on Monster trucks the other day and they said FI is what made the trucks real. All that bouncing around and free flight would make the carbs go bonkers whereas FI keeps the engine reving. Want a sense of history on this? Read some aviation books debating the differences in the fuel injected DB-109 and the carbed Spitfires used in the battle of Britian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobythevan Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 if you don't want to read the whole article here was the bottom line: Power wise, the two induction systems were equal at about 430hp at 5,600 rpm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 I'll even take the FI of the old L28 over a carb just because of the reliability and that it stays 'tuned' when you have significant elevation or weather changes. Now that is just plain crazy. The mid 70's FI the L28 has is really really bad, and I believe by some accounts you can gain hp by going to SU's. Go to something like triples and you can make a HECK of a lot more power. I'll take the funky cold starts anyday vs losing huge amounts of hp on an engine that doesn't make much to begin with. If I had an LS1 I might think otherwise. If you were comparing an aftermarket EFI to carbs I'd think otherwise, but that stock Datsun FI just sucks. Really sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speeder Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 A properly tuned modern port EFI setup will *always* outperform (in terms of power, economy, yes, emissions too,and driveability) the metered fuel leak called a carburetor, given identical engines. With differences between engines, and the fact that some intake manifolds may be optimised for carb'ed versus FI applications, it's very hard to run comparison tests. I once installed and tuned a Holley Commander 950 port FI on a local guy's strong running, Bo Laws-built 406 SBC, replacing a 1000cfm 4-barrel leak. After this was done, we saw ~50 more rwhp on the dyno, instant cold start/warmup, and vastly improved idle/part throttle response. The only change to engine configuration was the intakes with their respective fuel systems attached, which appeared very similar in overall design. There are people who are very talented at tuning carburetors, but the fact remains that they can come nowhere near controlling air/fuel under all conditions as well as with EFI. Note that I said "modern". This does not include the stock early Z's analog sytems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240ZR Posted February 13, 2006 Author Share Posted February 13, 2006 Still my question looms!!! WHY are drag cars STILL not using EFI? I'd think.... that if one team use it they would clearly have an advantage and run if not better 1/4 times... atleast more consistant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Why is NASCAR still using carbs and pushrods? IIRC only Chevy still uses pushrods, and none of them use carbs anymore. The answer is because everybody has been doing it for the last 50 years and they all know exactly how to make the carbs do what they want. It's kinda hard to change the formula like that on everybody, they have lots of cash invested in these classes as they are written. There ARE fuel injection classes for drag racing, but the big money goes to the fastest classes. I suppose you could ask them if they thought the FI was more consistent... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240ZR Posted February 13, 2006 Author Share Posted February 13, 2006 Bottom Line a Properly tuned Carb is as good as a EFI set up? Power make the same power... b/c you can NOT get more potential energy out of Gas bottom line gas in a performance engine is already burning as much gas as it can as efficiently as it can (as long as it breaths right)...... EFI makes better mileage and had a better range of operational values....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 You could ask the same question about NASCAR... WHY NO FI? Most likely it is RULES that are dictating some of these requirements to use carburetors. However, and this was recently a topic in Speedway Engineering Magazine (I think that's the name), the cost pros are experiencing in doing significant work to race carbs/ intakes/ fuel systems to get them to compete at the highest levels has now made them nearly as costly as FI setups. If you want to stay with a carburetor, that's fine. However, understand that technology is moving forward faster than ever before imagined. That comparison with the LS1 and the one about monster trucks are two excellent examples about WHY it's just a matter of time. Carbs are on their way out... Two decades or three down the road, maybe five, who knows... But Carbs are NOT on any production based vehicle to my knowledge. Now, Let me ask you this... WHY are there NO carbs in Formula One??? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wigenOut-S30 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Still my question looms!!! WHY are drag cars STILL not using EFI? I'd think.... that if one team use it they would clearly have an advantage and run if not better 1/4 times... atleast more consistant that question was answered.. thoes fuel leaks are tuned to work at WOT and thats all NHRA drag uses. just basically dumping fuel into a engine.. now drive one of thoes on the street.. Drive ability is far deminished. not all drag cars are Carbed.. Here is a 350Z drag car running 6's with TT set up and EFI.. http://www.theexperience.com/recordrun.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrus Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Several articles all found there to be no real difference in Peak HP. Drivability and emmission is another issue. But the real lesson I have learned is DO NOT argue with dumb people, you will always lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Ding ding ding ding! Cyrus, Move to the front of the class... If someone wants to believe something, you can only take them to the fountains of knowledge... You can NOT make them drink from it! MIke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNeedForZ Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 There is nothing that hasn't been said about EFI vs carb. I want to run BOTH, carb to benefit from good atomization, and EFI to fill the lag between transitions, and to spray as the "accelerator pump" and to help cold start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240ZR Posted February 13, 2006 Author Share Posted February 13, 2006 Bah no more fights with bone head mustang kiddies then >_> like what 8 days and the only person i care about is my 1st SGT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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