Chewievette Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Alright, I've REALLY fallen off my rocker this time. I found out that one of my instuctors has 14 Lycoming GSO-480-B1B6 engines in storage. That's a Geared, Supercharged, Horizontally Opposed, 480cid (7.8L), six cylinder, aircraft engine for those that aren't airplane people. I am in the process of prying one or two of them away from him. If I succeed one of them will be going into my 240z. I am starting this thread to help solve some of the issues that I might encounter with this swap. The engines come from a Military Beechcraft U-8D (civil D-50 Twin Bonanza). It is rated at 340hp stock but aviation is very strict about reliability, hard to pull over in an airplane, so I can get that up to 400hp without braking a sweat, or the bank. Now 400hp and weighing 500lbs (all aluminum) should be perfect for the Z. The gearing will have to be removed from the engine, since with it the output redlines at 3,400rpm, without redline is around 5,300rpm. Without the gearbox it will be much easier to adapt the engine. I am planning to use the 5 speed transmission from my '79 280zx with a custom adapter engineered in house. Since the engine uses a pressure carburetor I would like to switch to fuel injection so it is easier to operate. Just need to get a 900cfm throttle body. I can use a stand alone system for both fuel and ignition. The stock ignition is dual magnetos but I found a stand alone distributorless setup that can operate a dual spark six cylinder, perfect for this engine. Now for the problems; First things first, these engines are known for their cooling problems so I would like to convert to liquid cooling by fabricating a stainless steel shrould to cover both cylinder banks, does anyone see an issue with this type of setup? The exisiting cooling fins should help the cooling process and will keep the engine cool at any speed. My only concern is the added weight of the coolant and trying to seal the shroud. The other option is to employ spray bars around the cylinders to keep the temps down. I'm not a huge fan of this method since I would still have to carry a coolant reservoir that needs to be filled periodically and dumping coolant on the road might be frowned upon by the police. The only other option is to use multiple radiator fans to keep air blowing over the cylinders at all times. Problem is that if these engine had issues while doing 200mph+ in the air how much help will a few little fans be? If aircooled I will make ductwork to channel the formerly radiator air to the topside of the engine and then out the bottom of the car. These engines use what is known as pressure cooling, pressure is built up above the engine and then channeled between the cylinders to the bottom side and overboard. I would have to use a very similar setup to have any chance of keeping it cool. Next issue, steering. This is a very long and wide engine, while I have yet to measure I am fairly certain that the steering will have to either tuck under the cylinders or go foreward then over the top of the engine I am sure I can swap the steering rack and emply a gear system to get it up and over but if you have any ideas, my ears are open. Congrats, you made it through! I have been pondering this swap since friday so its no where near fully thought out. I am open to all comments, and ideas. I know I'm not the only one to think of putting an air cooled engine into a Z so let me hear your ideas! Here's some food for thought: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Obviously you have never witnessed a failure of the cylinder mounting studs on that Lycoming. If you had, you would seriously reconsider the project. Put it in an Air Boat, instead, then when it goes, the debris flys around BEHIND you! This is a hopped up version of the Continental Packette PE175. They sound pretty good, but water cooling? Forget it! They DO make a flywheel mounted fan conversion for these engines in stationary generator usage (probably out of the inventory by now, the units I worked on were being converted to Diesel quickly, and that was over 20 years ago now!) Problem is, the fan is 3 to 4 feet in diameter. Not your quickest revving engine... You want a 400HP Air (Oil) cooled engine for your Z that packages MUCH better? Go pick up a 930 Turbo Porsche engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CruxGNZ Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 I'm not going to say "don't waste your time", because similar things have been done. For example, take an engine from a P-51 and build a car around it. Then, go drag racing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikolai Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 ...or an LS2. Original it would be, but damn, so complicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aarang Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Those engines are definetly not the best out there. Just wait until you see the destruction from one of those compressors when it lets go, and it will let go! Also, like TonyD said, The cylinders on that ( and many other turbo/supercharged Lycs) have a tendency to "pop" the mounting studs for the cylinders, letting all kinds of fury loose! There is a reason those engines are burgeoning in the schools. Just my .02 *Also on another note, if you are currently in A&P school, take everything your instructors tell you with a grain of salt. IMO it seems they teach things a certain way to cover their behinds when the FAA comes around. I have been in the A/C industry going on 15 years and have seen alot! Aaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 I opened an access panel once, and literally had the failure occur at THAT moment. As I pulled the panel back, something went FLYING out missing my laft hand by inches, and a terrible racket ensued. I dropped the panel, my helper and I ditched and waited for everything to come to a stop (which, with that flywheel took a while...) It is very disturbing when you see big dents from INSIDE a piece of equipment while hearing it come apart. The thing that flew out? The entire piston/cylinder/rod/head combination, minus most of the rod cap, and one pushrod tube... Blew right off the gearcase, and flew away. We found it by the trail of oil it left on the clean flowthrough parking area concrete. Oh yeah, it was a long day at safety... Until that VERY moment, that very exact, specific moment, I was trying to figure out exactly how to make that engine fit mid-engined into my 62 Microbus. It ended when I saw that. Similarly, the usage of the -60A GTC Turbine powerplant and gearbox reducer in the Z was the next thing I moved onto....until one of those chucked an exducer up through the roof of the hangar, and out onto the flightline one day. It was then I decided to do safe things like Land Speed Race instead... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewievette Posted March 7, 2006 Author Share Posted March 7, 2006 Obviously this is not the best aircraft engine for installation in a car. but when you hear the words, free, engines, and 300+hp in the same sentence, you tend to take notice. Even if I choked the thing down to 350hp and ran with a blow off valve permanently dumping X amount of boost overboard would it still shed cylinders? I'm not building a race car here I just want something fun and unique to cruise around in. I dont even care what hp numbers I get, I like this motor because its very unique and when it comes apart since its not in high demand, I'll have plenty spare parts around to fix it or replace it. Would it help to run something like blower straps to hold the cyl jugs on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240Z_Master Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 Anyone ever think of the "hmm my Z tranny can't handle this" possibility? What about shifting with this motor, letting the revs down or downshifting for that matter. From what I know on the 152 Cessna's (Lycoming flat 4's), this isn't a real smart thing to do. Unless you plan on keeping it in 3rd the whole time? My two pennies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proxlamus© Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 um.. Subaru WRX motor?? still Horizontally opposed 4 cylinder.. or you can get a Subi Legacy motor .. HO 6 cylinder... parts are easier and cheaper to find.. also .. Airplane engines are designed to run around 2,600 RPM for long long periods of time... having an engine which will rev to 2,600 RPM is BORING and 100% useless... I think they have a 2,500 TBO (to be overhauled) time anyway... but still.. dont waste your money.. a Subi motor.. then yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewievette Posted March 7, 2006 Author Share Posted March 7, 2006 If the lycoming engine doesn't go in there then I'm sticking with the L6, simple as that. Yes the trans can hold it, L28et's are putting out more than this motor can and I dont hear many gripes from them. I'm definately NOT putting a subaru engine in there, I have no interest in them so why would I put one in there? If you read all the way through my first post you will see that since this engine was designed to be geared the engine acctually spins much faster than the prop (5300rpm vs 3400rpm). Aircraft engines are not known for their responsiveness to rapid throttle changes, but this is not going in a race car, I just want a fun car to drive around in during the summer. For that matter, why cant this engine rev as fast as any other piston engine? It's only a bit larger than the average big block v8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240Z_Master Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 If the lycoming engine doesn't go in there then I'm sticking with the L6' date=' simple as that. Yes the trans can hold it, L28et's are putting out more than this motor can and I dont hear many gripes from them. I'm definately NOT putting a subaru engine in there, I have no interest in them so why would I put one in there? If you read all the way through my first post you will see that since this engine was designed to be geared the engine acctually spins much faster than the prop (5300rpm vs 3400rpm). Aircraft engines are not known for their responsiveness to rapid throttle changes, but this is not going in a race car, I just want a fun car to drive around in during the summer. For that matter, why cant this engine rev as fast as any other piston engine? It's only a bit larger than the average big block v8.[/quote'] Yeah, I see where you're going, I think the major problem is the cooling, like that's what the cowling was for! If it didn't have it, the motor would be gone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewievette Posted March 7, 2006 Author Share Posted March 7, 2006 If I stick with air cooling (most likely) then I will install duct work to channel the formerly radiator inlet to the top side of the engine then use the stock baffles to channel the air to the bottom side where it will flow out under the car. Its really not that difficult. Even with cooling fans I will still probably have to shut it down in traffic, but if I run a spray bar system with the cooling fans then I should be able to get through most stop and go traffic situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbk240z Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 In my opinion, this engine would be a radically cool swap. However I don't think the Z is well suited for it as the chassis design would make the swap VERY difficult. Maybe an old Datsun 510 station wagon or an old Daston mid 70's Datsun pickup, either with a robust transaxle would be so cool. THe truck would ease the cooling issue. Maybe you could get ARP to custom make some cylinder head studs. Any, just ideas, Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 Well, some of the other people here obviously know MUCH more than me when it comes to airplane motors, but I'd like to give a few words of encouragment. I think it would be awsome. Sure it won't win races, or even be let into them for that matter, but it will be unique and have that wow factor. An extreme that you might end up having to go to is totally tubing your front end. I've never done it but i've seen several on the board, so you wouldn't be alone there. Even if you have to lower the HP down to 250-300 to make it reliable with the air cooling it's still neat. And right now I'd be thrilled with 200hp in my ZX.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nismopu Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 when I was on the flightline we used to see how high the -60's would shoot our gloves up in the air. yeah, it was a big FOD hazard but fun nonetheless. sorry, I dont think this idea of putting a very unpredictable airplane motor in a Z a smart idea either. However you would get some serious "cool" points if you did do it and would probly enjoy the heck out of it until it grenaded. peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtcookson Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 the thing may "only" make 350 hp but it displaces 7.8 liters... how much torque does that sucker make?? i would think it would make an insane amount of torque, which is where the tranny and clutch could have issues. Other than that (and the thing blowing to pieces) that would definitely be a unique and cool swap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twoeightnine Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 Dude! Air cooled:nono: Designed primarilly for thrust loading and not for direct torque loads:eek: Did you know that if a prop so much as even strikes an object that the bearings have to be replaced! Bolted to a tranny will cause the main bearing to go in a hurry:confused2 Way too wide!! Shaft miss-match:shock: And the 480 is not a "derated" engine. In fact, thoes engines are on the brink of their capabilities at full power. They are very particular about going out of there design parameters. Ever heard the term "woofed a jug"? "Thermal shock"? They even have a limit on how long they can be run at full power with out flying apart!! From a pressure carb set up to fuel injection!! Yep I would say that you have lost your mind:mrgreen: I do like the air boat Idea! But dont let me stop you, I only hold a Airframe and Powerplant certificate and an Aviation Science Degree. I may be looking at it the wrong way:2thumbs: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boobala Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 ... I think they have a 2,500 TBO (to be overhauled) ... TBO = "Time Between Overhaul" Yeah, I know. I'm being nit-picky. <--- A&P Mech. (Jets only thank you ) Anyway back to the original post... How would you mount a transmission? How much torque does that Lycoming have? How quick is the throttle response? Can it handle repeated, rapid, speed (RPM) changes? Bad idea all around if you ask me. Get yourself a Suby 2.5L boxer and slap a turbo on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 73Turbo240z Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 I'm going to come at this from a totally different angle, have you considered your responsibility to the public when you'd be operating this car/engine? Consider that if you were in traffic when this engine lets go, it's 6 cylinders are now projectiles pointed at the people to either side of you. If this engine has such a nasty dark side like folks are saying, you could very likely kill someone, or if it let go on the highway it could take out another car entirely... Lawsuits that would follow aside, think of the human ethics involved... if you were landspeeding it or somthing where stuffs expected to grenade that'd be fine, but in a close quarters situation where your motor could let go next to a pregnant woman in a kia... I dunno man... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtcookson Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 very good point indeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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