EZ-E Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Well here is my Centerforce Dual Slipping Clutch, talk about a waste of 300 dollars. This is the removed clutch after only 2k miles. Burnt up disc, pressure plate and flywheel. Just look at the carnage of it all it's really amazing that they describe these as holding 90% over stock capacity. What I am running is a T3/TO4E, Stage III compressor wheel, using 36# injectors and 12 sometimes spiking to 15# of boost. I wouldn't think that I am out of Centerforces so called range, where they place this clutch at. Though I haven't dynoed my car, I would think that its not over 350 ft lb or torque. Well here are some photos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB26powered74zcar Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 I been saying that for years. The same thing happened to me when I bought one of those Duel Slippin clutches..... a total waste of money... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK-Z Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Ouch. So are you goning to have to replace the preasure plate and flywheel? So what clutch are you going to rreplacing it with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruez Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 I have heard that also... Won't be putting one in mine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 I have to ask this, because tech staff at Midway Engineering will... Did you follow their breakin procedure? If not, you'll kill it for sure. Nothing wrong with centerforce clutches. I know guys with well over 600WHP running them with no failures. Sorry you experienced this... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EZ-E Posted March 11, 2006 Author Share Posted March 11, 2006 Yes I followed they're procedure to a T. No boosting at all. Just regular driving, with speed changes, resurfaced flywheel, and actually went to 600 miles before having fun with the car. Like you Mikelly, I have heard the good and the bad, and unfortunately I have suffered the bad. The thing is though, when you contact CF, they seem to not know of what you speak. It is like well YOU JUST HAD TO DO SOMETHING WRONG, for the clutch to do that. My new clutch install is going to be from Spec clutches, it is pretty nice, I have heard nothing but good from them, and they claim 425 ft lb of torque holding capacity. I believe that will be more then enough for a good time to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Well be forewarned, We've seen spec clutches fail pretty spectacularly as well... Maybe even worse... But You might want to go back to CF and speak with them again. I have had them warranty clutches for me... I had a clutch disc rip the center spline out years ago on an autoX car I was champainging in a series and Centerforce was not a sponsor. They covered the shipping and the part. I think the guy I've worked with at Midway is Brian... Going on faded memory here, but the guy I constantly deal with seems sharp and is reasonable... Also, from the pics, I'd re-use the flywheel and the Pressure plate... Take a 3m scotchbright pad to both to resurface them. I'd replace the disc with something else and call it a day... Currently I'm using an Exedy Hyper Stage 3 in my Vette, and I'll be using a Centerforce disc and PP in my Datsun 383stroker setup. Good luck and keep us posted... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannji Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 I used CenterForce back in the day too..... and being young and dumb, I doubt it was broken in even remotely properly. I never had a problem at all. Of course, I was only 30 or 40 hp over stock... I was so noob, I reinstalled the clutch 3 or 4 times, because it was jammed or something. I couldnt get the clutch pedal to move at all. Got real good at yanking that tranny solo and putting it back in. Finally had a friend come over who had already installed one. Turns out, I hadnt paid attention to basically anyone, the pressure plate was just a lot stiffer than anything I had ever used, and I wasnt pushing the pedal hard enough. My friend never shared that story with anyone, or at least they were kind enough to never laugh at me to my face. Live and learn, even if it is the hard way, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speeder Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 I have never known anyone running over ~275 hp/300tq on a turbo L that has had good luck with the "Dual Sliption". I would be curious if any turbo inliner members reading will report different. May be something specific to the 240MM Datsun setup from Midway - But all I've seen have the some pressure plate and flywheel hot spots as in the pictures above, with a crispy clutch disc. I personally smoked two of them, the second of which was a replacement under warranty by Midway. I didn't ask for the second replacement because I didn't want one even for free. I scrupulously observed the adjustment and breakin procedures each time. My personal opinion is that the CF Datsun pressure plates don't have strong enough diaphragm springs, relying too much on the centrifugal weights for clamping force at high rpms, leaving low rpm grab weak. CF clutches have great feel and grip for lower performance applications, and that's all I run in my na (185 rwhp on a good day - L28/E31/Haltech/header/moderate cam) beater 280Z. I also had bad luck with the SPEC Stage 3 at the 400hp level - According to the reps that 475 tq rating is a "little optimistic". They provided a modified Stage 3 with their "dual diaphagm" pressure plate that seems to hold everything I can throw at it now. Again, this is personal experience and direct observation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twoeightnine Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Seems some like it some don't. With such a division of opinion it makes one wonder why the disparity? How could it be good for one and a disaster for another? Is it as Speeder said about the diaphram springs lacking adequate low RPM pressure. Are the failures based on a torque threshold? I would like to know the root cause/causes and what to do about it so that after breakin, (motor) I wont be scared to put my foot in it! That being said, is there an all around clutch assembly that everone could agree on. You know, get er done, no horror stories, mucho love, don't leave home with out it clutch assembly!! I'm weak in the clutch dept and would love to know!! Many thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 A number of us west coast 240Z racers instructing at MSA's West Coast Nationals were given Centerfoce baseball caps as SWAG. We all handed them back because we were convinced they would just slip off our heads. The following is pure conjection on my part: I think the issue with CF clutches is high rpm usage and Speeder touches on it in his post. CF runs lighter diaphram springs to get a softer clutch pedal and they compensate with the diaphram spring weights. Those spring weights tend to slow the clutch release when shifting at higher rpm (over 6,000 rpm). This causes the clutch to drag and creates heat. Over time the clutch just wears out quicker. At lower rpms (Like in most V8 applications) the design works fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 That being said, is there an all around clutch assembly that everone could agree on. You know, get er done, no horror stories, mucho love, don't leave home with out it clutch assembly!! I'm weak in the clutch dept and would love to know!! I recommend the Nissan Motorsports pressure plate and clutch for L6 applications. Or for those on a budget, a well rebuilt or new stock pressure plate and Nissan Motorsports clutch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twoeightnine Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Thanks for the shout John. So if I get it correct, your saying that for V8 aplications, 6500 rpm max with average shifts between 4500-5000, the centerforce works fine? The weights, I presume, continually increase clamping pressure all along the RPM curve which hinders high RPM shifts. Are they exponential or one to one? In V8 apllications, hydraulic, do you know if their pressure plates are adequate? In close, what would you do with a torque-ish V8 small block? Many thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 So if I get it correct, your saying that for V8 aplications, 6500 rpm max with average shifts between 4500-5000, the centerforce works fine? No, I'm not saying that. My post above was conjecture. My only direct experience with CF has been in a L6 application. The V8 applications I've had experience with have all used OEM or OEM motorsports clutches and pressure plates. The weights, I presume, continually increase clamping pressure all along the RPM curve which hinders high RPM shifts. Are they exponential or one to one? Don't know. In V8 applications, hydraulic, do you know if their pressure plates are adequate? Don't know. In close, what would you do with a torque-ish V8 small block? Use an OEM pressure plate and clutch or something from that OEM's motorsports division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twoeightnine Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Thanks John. Didn't think that you would throw any theology on me! Can count on some things! Yes OME Motorsports is a safe bet. Was looking for the Holy Grail of small block clutches I suppose. Been out of the build scene for a long time, other than NASCAR, and was basicly searching for the latest and greatest. In the day, at American Muscle- Old School Central, it was BorgWarner and a plate that nearly took both feet to mash the pedal down hanging on a cable retract. Did like to hear the "Boing" when doing a clutch drop. ha! Seems like sufficient Boo's to shy away from the C/F regardless. Thanks again, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Pretty well everone I know uses upgraded later design Nissan clutches, with heavier diaphragms for higher output engines. Providing the diaphragm gives sufficient clamping force clutch problems basically then don't exist. Exedy plates feel good and seem up to the job. A mate with a RB30ET engine in his S30 is upping the power to ~400hp at the wheels and is going with a locally designed and made twin plate, very heavy diaphragms lead to overdeveloped muscles in the left leg plus a stressed out release mechanism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 I know on the cars I'm refering to, they are all V8s and all in the 11-12inch diameter range. The Exedy Hyper Stage3 I'm using in the vette is supposed to be good for over 650#ft. torque, but it is MASSIVE and the pedal is pretty damned stiff... Maybe JohnC is onto something...I don't know. All my Datsun Centerforce experience was with 245Crank HP or less. Mike Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speeder Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 I think the issue with CF clutches is high rpm usage and Speeder touches on it in his post. CF runs lighter diaphram springs to get a softer clutch pedal and they compensate with the diaphram spring weights. Those spring weights tend to slow the clutch release when shifting at higher rpm (over 6' date='000 rpm). This causes the clutch to drag and creates heat. Over time the clutch just wears out quicker. At lower rpms (Like in most V8 applications) the design works fine.[/quote'] After thinking about it ,I agree with John - Sounds right - I had it backwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 Many years ago, with only 10,000 miles or so on the car, my 92 Eclipse GSX's clutch started slipping in 4th gear when the boost came on (modified wastegate control was installed). At the time, there really wasn't much support in the Aftermarket for Hi-Po clutches, except for Centerforce. The local DSM hotrod shop (ExtremeMotorsports) sold Centerforce, but was already working on a design of their own. The owner's father told me that the Centerforce Dual Friction pressure plate was simply a stock pressure plate replacement - no difference except the orange paint. This pressure plate did not have the weights. Now, mind you, my Eclipse is running maybe an extra 20 hp or so over stock. It's all stock except for the spring-relief type of wastegate control valve. I run about 14psi. But the Centerforce Dual friction setup has lasted over 120,000 miles. I'm not saying it's a good candidate for high performance use though. My point is that the Centerforce Dual Friction (but not with weights) pressure plate in at least this application looks, measures, etc. to be just a stock replacement pressure plate. Speeder : What do you think of the Spec Stage 3 clutch pedal effort, compared to stock? I'm considering that for my next clutch, or even the Stage 2 or 2+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speeder Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 Pete, The SPEC stage 3 with the standard pressure plate has a firmer than stock (or CFDF) , but not excessive , pedal effort. Nice feel and control , despite having a ceramic 6-puck disc. My dual diaphragm upgraded pressure plate (I think it's called a Stage 3+), with McCleod hydraulic TOB and 5/8" Tilton Master, is really firm. Maybe too firm. But it's lasted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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