hoohaa Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 I am posting this because it is a topic that interests me very much. I understand that some folks feel it is not worth discussing, but I hope they will have enough respect to allow those that do have an interest in the topic to discuss it. I have always had an interest in protecting stuff from EMP. One of the negatives to owning a newer car for me is the delicate computer that controls the engine versus a simple carb/points ignition of the older cars. Adding the MS has lots of gained benefits, but the susceptibility to EMP is a drawback for me. I am trying to explore the possibility of protecting the MS and as much of the related wiring and sensors as possible from EMP. A couple of notes: EMP can be caused by a variety of devices, including, but not limited to, nuclear weapons. A very strong EMP would probably fry everything no matter how well I tried to protect it. I don't even know that it would be possible to protect the MS from a relatively small EMP. I might find that it's just too difficult to do. At this point I am just tossing ideas around. My plans so far are to build a sheet metal box that will house the MS and to use some sort of conduit to shield the wiring harness as it leaves the protected box. In my opinion the most difficult aspect will be shielding the wiring harness, since the various wires will act as antennas and pick up damaging charges regardless of how well protected the MS is. I know that some of the more sensitive wires in the harness can be easily shielded from RFI by simply running a shield along the wire and then grounding the shield to one of the MS grounds. One of the things I wonder about is whether it would be a good idea to tie the EMP shielding to MS's grounds or whether to leave it separate. Let's say I did tie the shielding to MS's grounds; what could possibly happen? Another question I have is how to terminate the shields on the wiring harness. Should the shielding terminate to the engine block in the case of, say, a knock sensor, or should it be floating, only attached to the box? Flexible steel conduit seems to me like the best option for shielding. The stuff is cheap, flexible, thick, and comes with connectors that would allow me to easily attach it to the MS box. I have seen zippered shielding though, and it's supposed to be pretty good. That might be something to look into as well, it would certainly be easier to use. An example of the zippered stuff can be found here: http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/24222 This is an example of the flexible conduit I'm talking about: http://www.easternwire.com/flex-home.html Again, I know some folks don't see this as an appropriate topic for discussion. I simply ask that you show the same respect to me that you would hope for if and when you have a more off-the-wall question for the forums. Discussion of movie science will probably come up and that's fine, just realize it is probably meant jokingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted October 8, 2006 Administrators Share Posted October 8, 2006 I have always had an interest in protecting stuff from EMP. One of the negatives to owning a newer car for me is the delicate computer that controls the engine versus a simple carb/points ignition of the older cars. Adding the MS has lots of gained benefits, but the susceptibility to EMP is a drawback for me. I am trying to explore the possibility of protecting the MS and as much of the related wiring and sensors as possible from EMP. You know you're going to get asked this so, I may as well be the one... where does this interest come from? I mean no disrespect, I'm just trying to understand why this is so important? What are the 'other' reasons you cite besides nuke's? Do you have a method of testing your success's or failures? If your reasons are good enough, maybe you can convert a few of us Really, no disrespect intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 I think the problem with emp is that if it's strong enough, nothing will protect you except distance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoohaa Posted October 8, 2006 Author Share Posted October 8, 2006 You know you're going to get asked this so, I may as well be the one... where does this interest come from? I mean no disrespect, I'm just trying to understand why this is so important? What are the 'other' reasons you cite besides nuke's? Do you have a method of testing your success's or failures? If your reasons are good enough, maybe you can convert a few of us Really, no disrespect intended. I just find the topic interesting, that's all. I am not out to "convert" anyone. A "success" in my mind would be designing a good shielding system, one that should work in the event of EMP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted October 8, 2006 Administrators Share Posted October 8, 2006 I just find the topic interesting, that's all. I am not out to "convert" anyone. A "success" in my mind would be designing a good shielding system, one that should work in the event of EMP. Never pursue a career in sales Best of Luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 Hoohaa, Haven't we done this already? I believe your other thread was locked... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoohaa Posted October 8, 2006 Author Share Posted October 8, 2006 The only other thread I have started in this section was about me getting banned from MSEFI. That was locked "because (it was) not a megasquirt topic". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritech-z Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 I feel partially responsible for the prior thread getting locked down, since I was the one that jokingly brough up the movie science. Sorry about that one, hoohaa, didn't mean any harm. I think if anybody that was taking part in a car-based forum was going to know anything about EMP shielding, you will probably find such a one is a member of Hybridz. Hopefully somebody will be able to give you a real answer this time. Also, I have not yet heard anything about your situation with msefi from the guy I asked, but if I do, I'll PM you with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 I had occasion to pull into a 1968 VW Type 3 Squareback in the JY the other day, and all sorts of memories came flooding back, not the least of which was a MAP sensor that was calibrated by a screw and a about the size of a Beer Can! What does this have to do with EMI/RF? When first working in the Auto Mechanic Trade, there was a terrible propensity for the Type3 Models to just shut off without any reason whatsoever. One such incident was immortalized in "The Idiots Manual" by John Muir, where the car would die every morning at the same corner, but never on the weekend, or any other time. Turns out a leaking Amana Radarange was in operation warming coffee, and that the leakage was enough to kill the early Type 3 Electronics! No AMP Connector on the ECU, a tab-sealed box with the EFI pigtail coming out of it. Steps to shield the box involved a big aluminum envelope with a ground tab on one end... Just to make the point that interference ONCE was a serious (if not intermittent) problem with electronics in mobile vehicles. Cadillac had one hell of a time when they decided to put a CB in the car as a STOCK option. Shielding on those cars was in the strangest places! Grounding and interference shielding IS a valid MS topic. When my initial tach issues were going on, I found that the AC powercord for the laptop had to be routed DIRECTLY out the passenger's window or interference would be picked up. Same goes for if I powered it from an Inverter powered off the Cigar Lighter. Wether we like to admit it or not, shielding is not the MS's strongpoint! Anything to advance that knowledge is a good thing. Wether it's against Nuke Blast or the Cop Zapper Guns, who cares? At this point I think if someone used a Zerostat within 20 feet of my car it would freak the ECU and cause problems... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted October 8, 2006 Administrators Share Posted October 8, 2006 Tony, Entertaining reading My questions were targeted more towards EMP than EMI/RMI... should have made that more clear. If we're talking electronic 'noise' then yes... please... lets talk, its not one of my stronger points (nor MS's). The fascination with EMP stumps me, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Yeah, it is a bit obscure, but shielding is shielding, right? Taking it to an extreme, EMP-Proofing something would pretty much have to make it impervious to a coiled CB Antenna Lead stuffed under the dashboard next to the ecu, right? (Terrible story there... Guy key his mike, and when he does car stumbles... Talk about a diagnostic nightmare....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritech-z Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 I was thinking about this earlier this evening, and I was wondering if it wouldn't be more worth Hoohaa's time to attempt to shield his garage? It would probably be much easier to do, and from what he's posted about his concerns, he is primarily interested in having a running vehicle should the need arise, so perhaps making a shielded garage with a running vehicle inside would be something to consider? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoohaa Posted October 9, 2006 Author Share Posted October 9, 2006 I was thinking about this earlier this evening, and I was wondering if it wouldn't be more worth Hoohaa's time to attempt to shield his garage? It would probably be much easier to do, and from what he's posted about his concerns, he is primarily interested in having a running vehicle should the need arise, so perhaps making a shielded garage with a running vehicle inside would be something to consider? That is funny. I laughed when I read that. To me the project is the fun part and since I am planning a MS install anyways, what better time than now to do some heavy duty shielding? If I am not able to shield the electronics I am not going to lose sleep, so shielding the garage is out of the question. haha, I did laugh at that though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted October 9, 2006 Administrators Share Posted October 9, 2006 I was wondering if it wouldn't be more worth Hoohaa's time to attempt to shield his garage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Not sure if it will help, as EMP is definitely not a low frequency thing, but you might look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu-metal Have you searched the NACA/NASA archives? I don't think it's really worth worrying about though. If you could have the only drivable vehicle around after a nuc blast, How would you buy fuel, get food, water, etc. I'd be thinking about a survivalist kit with shelter, food and water that's shielded from fall out before worrying about a car. JMO. A motorcycle in a shielded cover and extra gas cans to strap on would be more practical for getting out of an effected area. But if your in an effected area, will you be healthy enough to be able to drive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 I would be thinking about finding a living woman to have, and some beer to toast the end of the world. But that's just me I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoohaa Posted October 9, 2006 Author Share Posted October 9, 2006 I don't think it's really worth worrying about though. If you could have the only drivable vehicle around after a nuc blast, How would you buy fuel, get food, water, etc. I'd be thinking about a survivalist kit with shelter, food and water that's shielded from fall out before worrying about a car. JMO. A motorcycle in a shielded cover and extra gas cans to strap on would be more practical for getting out of an effected area. But if your in an effected area, will you be healthy enough to be able to drive? Well this isn't specifically about nuclear EMP's, it's more about shielding from any source of EMP or strong EMI/RFI. I will respond anyways, I just hope we can keep it on topic. If we get off track in talking about nuke EMP maybe I will start a new thread in general chat to keep this thread on topic. That being said, I do think a discussion of one of the possible sources of EMP will allow us to better understand what we could shield from. I don't know what type of EMP air burst would be the most likely, but the higher the air burst, the more widespread the EMP, and the lower the potential radiation dose. IIRC an air burst at 300 miles altitude would create an EMP which would effect the entire contiguous United States from coast to coast. At that altitude the effects of fallout would be much less severe than a ground burst or even a lower altitude air burst. Of course, if an EMP attack were to occur, would it be more likely to come from a low tech organization with a nuke or EMP bomb delivered by a cruise missile or something like that, or would it come from a country with an ICMB that would be capable of a 300 mile air burst, or maybe it would be the result of an accident? I don't know. I do know that the types of protection and shielding are similar either way. In the event of a high altitude air burst, the EMP would be very widespread, but it would also be less powerful than a low altitude burst, assuming the same size warhead. I think that being able to shield the MS from a high altitude EMP from a lower yield device might be very possible. Something localized, whether some sort of a RFI gun or a low alt. burst or some other source of strong EMI or RFI would probably be tougher, if not impossible for me. Either way, it's still an interesting topic to discuss (well, for me at least) even if I can't be 100% certain that I am shielded from everything possible. One of my questions is whether or not to tie the shielding into MS's grounds as you would for low power RFI shielding. What do you guys think? I would be a little worried about doing that, maybe it would be better to leave the heavy shielding isolated from the MS as much as possible. Maybe even two layers of shielding would be good, one of them being the normal type of low power RFI shielding tied into the MS grounds, and then heavy shielding tied into the sheet metal box but left isolated from MS. Again, let's keep this on topic. This thread is not about disaster prep, it's about shielding the MS. If we need to let's start a thread in general about disaster prep to keep this thread clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 I worked at white sands missile range for a few years and got to see alot of testing of simulated Thermo nuclear explosions (Minor scale, Major Scale), and testing on EMP. The problem is that they could never simulate EMP cause it wiped out the test equipment. I was wondering how you would test it and what with, simply from the standpoint that how would you know if your work was futile or worthwhile. Seems it would be rather expensive to find out it didn't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Sources of information: http://www.euro-emc.co.uk/electromagnetic_pulse_protection.htm http://www.military-information-technology.com/article.cfm?DocID=1185 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritech-z Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Yeah, you would end up going through several MS boxes AT LEAST, not counting F*d up sensors and control modules and wiring, assuming you were able to test it out. Would it be possible to modify a microwave oven to this end? According to the military technology website that John posted, a smaller device like a computer that was not plugged in to anything would likely have its operation interrupted, but might not be critically damaged by an EMP since it didn't have as much circuit material to build up a damaging charge. That statement gives me some hope that your MS would make it. Also it suggests that a vehicle would offer some inherent protection since it is composed of a large amount of metal that would act as a partial shield. Really, without a testing apparatus, you won't have any idea what would work... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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