Guest Mike Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 I hope this is the right place to post this... Has anyone considered natural gas conversion for their regular daily drivers? You can fill up right in your own garage for about a buck a galon. Does anyone now who is making conversion kits? Or maybe tech information for DIY? Check these out... http://www.cngaz.com/ http://www.fuelmaker.com/MediaCoverageWeb.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bschiltz Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Wow, that's pretty cool. Kinda OT, but what about making you own diesel for another DIY fuel. I know of a few guys in the UK who are doing/trying it, but I don't know about the legality of it her in the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240zV8 Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Wow, that's pretty cool. Kinda OT, but what about making you own diesel for another DIY fuel. I know of a few guys in the UK who are doing/trying it, but I don't know about the legality of it her in the US. yea it's legal. I don't know if u watch that show "dirty jobs", but they had a episode filmed here in my city where the guy went to different restraunts (one being Diego's, there burittos are good.. ) and got there grease, and then processed it in his garage. and get's like 45 mpg at like 45 cents a gallon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240zV8 Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 U can run straight vegetable oil if ur setup right. I really hate spending 3 bucks a gallon when my truck gets like 10 mpg, the gas just dissapears along with my money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexideways Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 U can run straight vegetable oil if ur setup right.For this, you need a small diesel circuit to start & shut off the car.I think it's to prevent from clogging injectors and sutch, you start the car on diesel, then you switch the valve to your vegetable oil system and when you shut the car off, you switch back to diesel to purge the lines of the vegetable oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240zV8 Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 it would get all Jelly like if it just sits there right? My excavator is diesel so i'd love to have some cheap fuel for that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240zV8 Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 I heard u can run vegetable oil straight out, but u can't let it sit for periods of time without driving it or it will clog like u said, i'm not 100% sure though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bschiltz Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 I think you can add some anti-jelly stuff to the oil to prevent coagulation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 I'm lazy so the natural gas thing is more intersting to me. It's cheap, clean, and easy with no problems of any kind. I think it's a pretty neat solution for a daily driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparks280zt Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 im pretty sure bio-diesel and vegetable oil will only coagulate if it gets below 56 degrees. We run it in a yard dog and another truck and have been for awhile, no problems yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 I hope this is the right place to post this... Has anyone considered natural gas conversion for their regular daily drivers? You can fill up right in your own garage for about a buck a galon. Does anyone now who is making conversion kits? Or maybe tech information for DIY? Check these out... http://www.cngaz.com/http://www.cngaz.com/ http://www.fuelmaker.com/MediaCoverageWeb.pdf That second link says the operating costs on the natural gas car is about 80% of what a gasoline car costs to run. That is a good bit more than a buck a gallon. Also says the in garage refilling unit costs $2k and takes 8 hours to give you enough gas for only 100 miles of driving. Seems like a tough sell to me, but will be good if it helps bridge the gap to hydrogen vehicles. BTW, JohnC posted a pretty funny story of some guy he knew that did several thousands of dollars worth of damage to his Duromax deisel when he forgot to switch over from the french fry oil before turning the motor off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 I didn't read too deeply into those stories. However, I read the $1 per galon cost somewhere in one of them. If the cost really is $1 per galon, then a $2K investment will pay for iteslf in two years or less in most cases. I'll read the stories and let you know where I found the $1 figure. EDIT: Okay... I found where NG actual running cost is about 80 percent of that of gasoline. Honda "expects" to have the cost of the filling appliances down to $1K. If both of these statements hold true, then the average consumer spending $2.5K per year on gasoline can pay for the appliance in two years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruez Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 If I am not mistaken, I think natural gas has less available energy per unit than gasoline... so I would think power would suffer and it would take more units per mile than gasoline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrayZee Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 There are some places that do sell natural gas right at the pump (in some provinces/states) However I always understood that the natural gas you got to run your car was more expensive than the natural gas to heat your home. The reason being is that a great deal of your cost goes towards road tax. (supposedly to build/repair roads) Anyway I would guess that is you did a setup to fill from your house you would have to keep it low-key Or else they will be looking for a way to tax you on it.. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 TAXATION... I presume this is why there is a dedicated meter for the appliance. They'll allow us to invest in these things and become accustomed to the convenience, then the feds will tax that meter. We'll soon have a federal sales tax on ebay sales soon too, I'll bet:icon56: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 Well being that I workde for the premier supplier of CNG in the Nation maybe I should chime in... http://www.cleanenergyfuels.com/main.html First the costs: 80% of gasoline? That is a marketing goal. Our company set the price for CNG at 80% of a gallon of gasoline, and it was dispensed in "gasoline gallon equivalent" meaning the gallon you read on the dispenser was energy equivalent to a gallon of gasoline. In reality CNG vehicles dedicated CNG vehicles actually outperform Gasolilne vehicles because they take advantage of the CNG's 120+ octane, but I digress. Back to pricing, while in the LA region the CNG was commercially available for 80% of the cost of gasoline, in Salt Lake City a competitor was selling CNG for just over 80 cents a gallon equivalent! (Read that as $2.23 a gallon in L.A. and 82 cents a gallon equivalent in SLC---each company has markup and operating profit in that sum, so guess who's going to buy who in a few years???) Currently according to the above website the cost is $1.89 a gallon in SoCal. What has changed in three weeks that makes it drop from $2.23 to 1.89? That is another story altogether. When it was over $3 a gallon in SoCal, the price was capped at $2.50. Outrageous profits notwithstanding to their credit and despite a marketing plan that says "80% of the cost" they said enough it enough and kept the price steady. At that point cabbies started realizing they were paying 33% less than a gasoline cost! Or more! Boone Pickens is one shrewd dude! (As you can tell, I'm a fan of his!) The ACTUAL cost of the fuel is around 40 cents per gallon. Amortization of the pumping unit is what will drive up the cost. The fuel is in reality only about 40 cents per gallon equivalent, and really that is up since the cost of NG went up this past year. For a commuter car, the CNG option is EMINENTLY practical. The 8-hour 'slow fill' is dependent on the size of the storage tank in the vehicle. My E350 Service Van took 30 gallons of fuel and could be refuled at a commercial fast-fill station in less time than a gasoline counterpart. Slow fill is the way to get the absolute most out of the vehicle. The key is to have a 3600psi compressor in there, and not the 3000psi units. Were someone to optimize their vehicle for CNG usage (using higher compression and spark curves) to take advantage of the fuels 120+ octane rating, fuel mileage in a Z-Car would be rather reasonable for commuting, and FAR more practical than any of the electric alternatives currently out there. Buying a surplus CNG vehicle would give you most of the bits required, cheaper than buying them new, outright from a conversion specialist liike AFV in Huntington Beach CA (on Gothard Street, between Warner and Ellis). Even the smallest CNG tanks would allow 5 GGE (gas gallons equivalent) in the vehicle, and I believe with the removal of the spare tire well on an S30, that you could fit two of those units in the vehicle. That's 10 gallons of fuel in an S30. About double the "projected" range of the article. Driving an dedicated CNG vehicle, after driving their gasoline counterparts is a STRIKING thing. The first thing you realize is the transmission doesn't downshift in top gear. The thing has TORQUE! I pulled Palomar grade in overdrive in my E350. The only other vehicle I had that did that was my F350 Turbodiesel. The E250 I had with the same Gasoline engine needed a drop out of overdrive to keep the 80mph speed going uphill without dropping out of cruise control. As for taxation, take a look out there for "Hurricane" compressors. They are converted Ford 460 blocks where half the engine is engine, and the other portion of the V is a four stage compressor! Portable CNG fueling, fueled off the gas main you hook it to! Currently in the USA (and Canada) the CNG is not taxed the same as other roadgoing fuels. This is due to heavy lobbying by the companies involved in trying to get an alternative CLEAN fuel source situated and the infrastructure in place. In Arizona there was a bill that PAID the TOTAL COST of any Alternative Fueled Vehicle bought within a specified timeframe! Man, they did NOT expect the response they got, and funds EVAPORATED while cities tried to go through ponderous bureaucratic sessions to retrofit their fleets of busses, private individuals ran fast to get a "Free Vehicle" and bought them like gangbusters. For once municipalities got screwed by their residents on a governmental program because their residents were quicker to realize a good thing than their elected officials! LOL Anyway, if you bump the compression (the stock Ford CNG engine in my E350 5.4 Triton had 13:1) and make for a big spark advance using EFI a CNG vehicle conversion will have MORE power than a conventionally produced gasoline only capable vehicle. The bad rap CNG and Propane vehicles get is from people converting GASOLINE engines to run on them---in which case they are not optimized for the fuel's characteristics and there is a power loss noticed. One other thing, you convert your car to CNG ONLY, and in California you get to run in the Car Pool Lanes alone. Oh man, the storie I can tell about CHP's that just got Sheepish at my best Cheech and Chong Voiced "Hey man, it's a CNG vehicle, man! Didn't you see the sticker, Dude?" Oh, priceless! Worth the cost of the conversion alone. BTW, I doubt I'd put the fueling unit at my house, there is a dedicated commercial CNG fueling station (one I formerly had to maintain) only 4 miles from my house. For the bother of installation and maintenance, I'll just fill up there. While I worked for the company my wife was eligible for free CNG for her vehicle...so that tells you how much markup there is if they are giving away "Free Gas"! I don't know of any Petro company doing that for their employees! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 BTW, there is the cost thing from the Phill Website: "The refueling appliance – marketed under the name “Phill” – is expected to cost about $3,500. Incentive funding offered by AQMD and the MSRC will total $2,000 per unit for a total of 400 units, lowering the cost of each unit to $1,500 for the consumer. Installation of a unit costs an additional $1,000 to $2,000. Driving a compressed natural gas (CNG) vehicle can cut fuel costs in half. On average, fueling a CNG passenger vehicle will cost about 4 cents per mile compared with 8 cents per mile for a similar gasoline vehicle. The refueling unit is a small, compact gas compressor capable of providing convenient overnight home refueling for CNG vehicles. The appliance is safe, lightweight, and can deliver 3,000 or 3,600 pounds per square inch gauge (psig) of natural gas. " Basically the cost of the fuel is half what you would use for Gasoline, and there are other decreased engine maintenance costs related to running CNG instead of Gasoline as well, reducing total operation costs more... I'm on a bandwagon! LOL I love CNG. No, I don't work there any more. Though I believe they went public a month or so ago...so much for my "Ground FLoor Apple Computer" opportunity... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 Tony... Thanks for the enlightenment. Let's say I decide to convert my V8 260Z to CNG. If I build a dedicated high CR engine properly cammed and advance my spark to accomodate 120 octane, I'll not only get great fuel economy but I'll experience signicant power gains too? I'll research what (if any) incentives Texas and San Antonio offer. BTW, do you have any suggestions where I might start looking for said incentives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 Tony... Any links or other tech info regarding motor design and HP/torque estimates for CNG? Imagine building a motor that's... 1. More powerful than a gasoline engine 2. Cheaper to run via fuel economy 3. Lasts longer (fewer deposits) 4. Safer/cleaner for the environment It's a "win-win-win-win" situation. It just doesn't get any better than that!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240zV8 Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 sounds great, but what about long road trips where most places don't have a natual gas refill place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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