mudjr12 Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Ditto, Dan and BfO Glad to know this is an active board. I bought my VR in June of last year from a broker out of LA, I think he started it and just got bored. I love doing these kind of projects, this is my favorite to date. With the IROC-Z 350 engine this thing runs like a bat out of hell. I am very interested in the Knott's show when my VR project is completed. I plan to be finished by August. John, you are a legend, thanks for responding. Hope you guys keep updating. Once again, l would like to see any pics of your projects. dj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerrari GTO Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Hiya, Fellers,I am not offended at all by those who think body filler of any type is not acceptable for their particular installation. I never said my way is the best way...it is simply a good compromise between labor, expense, and durability. I use the aerosol urethane foam from Home Depot myself. I've had good luck with it, it forms a nice closed-cell matrix that keeps water out of the foam, and if sealed at the perimeter you shouldn't have to worry about water getting between it and the metal. I'm sure the marine, two-part stuff is great. However, like with epoxy it is expensive. Plus getting it in all the voids is tough compared to squirting in the aerosol stuff. Again, I think aerosol foam is a good compromise. Hey guys, I hope you don't think I am trying to slam John in any way by what I'm about to say. He is a very nice guy who I have had several phone conversations with and exchanged countless emails. The key word in John's post is "compromise" and his suggestions are meant to be an alternative to products that are more expensive. As you all know, this project is not a "cheap date" by any stretch of the imagination. The cost of the kit, installing frame rail connectors, countless suspension mods, engine swaps, etc., etc. etc., so the last thing I personally would want to do is create a "weak link" in the construction. I am still very weary of using body filler as a bonding agent. If you ask any of the auto body guru's on HybridZ they will probably cringe at the idea. Steve Graber's V/R was the one that really got my "motor going" for this project after seeing his V/R website and photos of the completed car. Fortunately for me his car was sold to someone here in Atlanta and John was nice enough to contact the new owner so I could see the car and take a ride in it. When I arrived, the car looked good from a distance but once I got close I could see some bad stress fractures/delamination on the body were the tub was bonded near the rocker panels. I have no idea what Steve used but whatever it was... it did not last. The cost of the 3M Automix product that is specifically made for bonding fiberglass to metal is more expensive (about $200 for the whole car: door skins, windshield cap, tub) but I will happily pay the extra money for the peace of mind it gives me. Here is a good thread on the subject: http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=80057. The key to using this type of adhesive is having enough surface area for it to be effective. I wound up fabbing a 3" fiberglass lip inside the tub for this purpose. As far as spray foam goes; I would not touch the stuff. I have experimented with the various types: "Great Stuff" etc. by bonding pieces of fiberglass together and was not impressed. When I heard it has a tendency to retain water, there was no way I was going to use it. The thought of foam full of moisture held next to the steel body of the Z car (even one painted with Por15) was not what I had in mind. The two part marine foam is more expensive...but not too much, and will give you superior performance (see page 15 of this thread). I simply have way too much money and sweat equity in the building of this car to use products that could significantly compromise the structural integrity of the body (especially when products exist that are perfectly suited for these applications). Once this thing is done, I do not ever want to second guess the choices I made...and I definately don't want to see any cracks or delamination like what developed on Steve Graber's car. My two cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Brio Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 I am too the point where I am ready to put the latches in the hood, I have Chrome pin latches, but they don't pull the sides of the hood close to car. I see that the old GTO's used straps, anyone got any ideas?? TIA. DJ mudjr12, I had a set of hood pins on my car before the rebuild. The same problem bothered me about the sides flexing out. I used a set of engine cowls latches from a King Air 100. I fabricated a set of brackets and cut the required holes. They work great and are fully adjustable. They both hold the hood down and have eliminated hood shaking. The bolts I used are too big for my liking, I'll change them out for some smaller button head bolts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boy from Oz Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 I agree with Zerrari that there is no substitute for quality and I think John's background information will let each of us make an informed choice. Foam - I'm wondering if there is an alternative to expanding spray foam. I suspect that it has little shear strength and with the vibrations of driving I doubt that it actually retains a bond between the metal of the car and fibreglass panels. What is this process supposed to achieve? Does is provide strength or rigidity, or is sound deadening process, or both? I'm wondering if a more flexible material might not be better. Would, for example, firm seat sponge/foam adhered in place to the metal and compressed when the fibreglass is applied, or stuffed in afterwards, achieve the aim. Even fibreglass roofing insulation material. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudjr12 Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 So many choices... Thanks Con Brio for the feedback. I had been checking out the cowl latches used on some experimental planes. I dropped a line to John Washington last night and he emailed me with a possible suggestion of using Triumph Spitfire bonnet latches. They are very similar in design to your King Air latches. I asked him last night how many VR's were ever produced, interesting enough he said 30 - 40. I thought this to be very cool. Are any of you guys building VR's? As far as saving a few bucks, I for one don't want to cut corners, I do have a lot invested, and my name goes on every car I have ever built (figuratively). I appreciate the info you's guys are putting out keep posting. dj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerrari GTO Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Foam - I'm wondering if there is an alternative to expanding spray foam. I suspect that it has little shear strength and with the vibrations of driving I doubt that it actually retains a bond between the metal of the car and fibreglass panels. What is this process supposed to achieve? Does is provide strength or rigidity, or is sound deadening process, or both? I'm wondering if a more flexible material might not be better. Would, for example, firm seat sponge/foam adhered in place to the metal and compressed when the fibreglass is applied, or stuffed it afterwards, achieve the aim. Even fibreglass roofing insulation material. Any thoughts? Boy from Oz, I really don't think there is a better alternative to filling the void between the Z body and the V/R with expanding foam. If done properly and the void is mostly filled with foam it creates a very, very strong support for the tub. As John Washington mentioned in his V/R manual; it is the same process used on aircraft wings. The foam spreads the load of the tub evenly and does a lot more work than the connection point of the tub to the body. Even if at some point if the foam separates from the Z body, the fit conforms so closely to the Z sheet metal that I don't think it would effect the structural integrity too much. Because this is such an important aspect of the tub mounting, my biggest concern is with the quality of the foam used. You definitely don't want something that will break-down over time or retain moisture. Con Brio, I've been thinking about the same thing. I like your idea of the side latches and have been contemplating those. I've also seen some cool pin locks for the top of the bonnet but they don't lock (to keep curious spectators from checking things out) and then there is the issue of the bonnet bowing-out when you button it down. What I was thinking was to use the pin locks up top and then use a couple of key locks on each side of the bonnet to lock it down and keep everything in alignment. I have seen some retro key hole covers that would hide the key hole and look very respectable on the car. Here is one for an old VW Bus: http://www.bfyobsoleteparts.com/Bus-Engine-Lid-Lock-Key-Hole-Cover-&-Seal-ca-0-pr-3456-pg-4.html. There also were some neat ones used on the old Chevy Corvairs (they show up on ebay fairly often). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Brio Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 mudjr12, I looked into the Triumph Spitfire latches, along with others. I couldn't make them work. I'd be very curious if you figure something out. Please keep me informed. Although the end result with the Kig Air latches was positive. Price and availability is a drawback. Zerrari GTO, I don't have anyway of locking my hood either. I like the look of those locks. Thanks for the link. The only thing I could think of is to leave the factory hood release in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Juday Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Have you guys considered using two of the stock hood latches? You may remember the C4 Corvette had a "clam shell" type hood (bonnet) very similar to the VR. GM used two hood latchs to secure the rear of the hood, one in each corner. You could make a similar type system using stock Z car hood latches and a couple of JTR hood latch relocation kits. I was just out poking around under the hood of my Z and I think it could be done fairly easily. The hardest part would be locating, and glassing in threaded metal plates in the bottom of the hood to screw the latches to. With a system like this there would be no visable latches and the hood would be much more secure than with only one center latch. The JTR latch mounts could be screwed to the firewall at each end or possibly in the cowl area on the other side of the firewall. My car has a cowl panel installed so I couldn't say for sure if there's room but you VR guys could check. Just an idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerrari GTO Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Hi Dan, I'm glade you have started participating on this thread. The knowledge you have from your Z build (extensive bodywork and V8 conversion) is a welcome addition. I have already taken from some of your ideas and incorporated them in my V/R. My removable panels in the trunk floor are a result of reading about your battery, fuel tank, exhaust install. Please keep the ideas coming. In the past I've read a couple of your comments where you mentioned you would like to build a V/R...are you thinking about taking the plunge???!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Juday Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Hi Dan,I'm glad you have started participating on this thread... Glad now, you may be sorry later. ...I have already taken from some of your ideas and incorporated them in my V/R... Imitation is sincerest form of flattery. Thank you, now that will be $5 in royalties. ...In the past I've read a couple of your comments where you mentioned you would like to build a V/R...are you thinking about taking the plunge???!!! I have the sweetest wife in the whole world. Stuck with me for 25 years come June. She says I can have all the project cars I want... sequentially. So, I have to finish the blue one first, and then there's at least one other that'll come between this Z and a VR project. But maybe, if I live long enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclark999 Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 I was wiggling the hood a little today to see how well it lines up and the whole thing broke free from the mount. It was fiberglassed with some layers to the mount. I'll email John Washington and see what the best way to line it up is before I reglue it. Any ideas? What should I use to refasten it? I'll post some pics tomorrow. The adventure continues.... QUOTE] I emailed John Washington and found out I have the new style hood hinge which should have not failed. I'm attaching some pictures. Biggest question is how to get this thing lined back up to reattach it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerrari GTO Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 QUOTE] I emailed John Washington and found out I have the new style hood hinge which should have not failed. I'm attaching some pictures. Biggest question is how to get this thing lined back up to reattach it. To get things perfectly lined up I would put the bonnet on the car in exactly the position you want it and then attach/bond the hinge. You will need to use something to hold the bonnet in position. If you car hasn't been painted yet, duct tape or even brackets and dry wall screws will work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share Posted January 28, 2008 mclark999 Good thing you weren't traveling at speed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclark999 Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Dan - Are you the one that wrote the thread on cutting out the fenders so you can put the wide body on without welding up the mess left behind? See the pictures below. Most people weld these, but either you or another experienced builder on this site gave a complete method for taping/bonding the fender back together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Juday Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 It may have been me. That's how my car is done and I've done write-ups on that method here on hybrid before. There was a a nice long one that went into great detail and included pics but it was lost in the site change-over. That car in the pic you posted is not mine though. The way he did it he will not have the maximum tire clearance possible. I can tell this because the gaps in his tabs are too small. To get the maximum possible tire clearance you end up with pie shaped gaps between each tab that need to filled in later. Each wheel house consists of an inner and outer section spot welded together on a flange. To achive the maximum tire clearance the outer fender skin must be cut to a radius that matches the wheel house radius at that flanged seam. Then each slice of the outer wheel house must go almost to that seam, within a 1/4". Bend each "tab" out and fold it over the fender skin. Trim each tab so there is about a 1/2" overlap (like in the pic) and screw it to the fender skin with drill point sheet metal screws, two or three in each tab. What you have done is changed the shape of the outer section of the wheel house from a somewhat spherical shape to a cylindrical shape. Seal up the slots and gaps with foil backed butyl tape you get at the HVAC supply house. This stuff is pricy, about $25 a roll and you'll use nearly a whole roll on each side. Here is a pic of my cars fender after it was sealed up with the butyl tape. http://www.zparts.com/showcase/djudayv8proj/shoot2/pages/14DJ_R2_.htm About your hood breaking loose from the hinge. If it were me I'd use 3M's product for bonding steel to fiberglass first and then epoxy and glass mat over the top. To secure it while the stuff dries I'd run screws through the hood and into the steel hinge. This is the only way I see of getting a good fit without voids in the bond. After you're done bonding the hinge back on remove the screws and and fill and finish. JMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerrari GTO Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 About your hood breaking loose from the hinge. If it were me I'd use 3M's product for bonding steel to fiberglass first and then epoxy and glass mat over the top. To secure it while the stuff dries I'd run screws through the hood and into the steel hinge. This is the only way I see of getting a good fit without voids in the bond. After you're done bonding the hinge back on remove the screws and and fill and finish. JMHO The 3M product I have used is 3M Automix SMC/Panel Adhesive #08219 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dsail56 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Mike I've seen real GTOs with side exit exhaust. Although not side pipes like us Americans are used to seeing like on vettes and cobras. They give a real race car look to them. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espeery Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 I have been looking around for the right gauges that have the vintage race feel as well as gauges that resemble the original six gauge layout - one large gauge in the center and five smaller gauges. I decided to go with a 5" speedo in the center as opposed to the tach and five 2.25" smaller gauges. I drilled the holes and mounted the gauges in the removable Nacelle. Its taken me a lot of time to finalize the dash and gauge setup but I am happy with the results. Here are some preliminary photos of the fiberglass dash, gauges and Nardi steering wheel. I will be painting the dash crinkle coat black. I will also have a switch panel as seen in the pics which hangs from the dash. This panel will have the key ignition and various toggle switches. The only column switch will be the turn signal. The next step is to finalize the heater/fresh air dash vents. I took the car for spin the other day. That LS1 really moves! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerrari GTO Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 I have been looking around for the right gauges that have the vintage race feel as well as gauges that resemble the original six gauge layout - one large gauge in the center and five smaller gauges. I decided to go with a 5" speedo in the center as opposed to the tach and five 2.25" smaller gauges. I drilled the holes and mounted the gauges in the removable Nacelle. Its taken me a lot of time to finalize the dash and gauge setup but I am happy with the results. Here are some preliminary photos of the fiberglass dash, gauges and Nardi steering wheel. I will be painting the dash crinkle coat black. I will also have a switch panel as seen in the pics which hangs from the dash. This panel will have the key ignition and various toggle switches. The only column switch will be the turn signal. The next step is to finalize the heater/fresh air dash vents. I took the car for spin the other day. That LS1 really moves! That looks great! Thanks for the pics and please keep them coming as you progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudjr12 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Still waiting for the snow fall in NY to drop to less than 4 ft before building again. I am ready to start looking for seats for my VR. I know its a matter of what the builder wants to put in them, but curious what some of you's guys did. I still have the OEM 280Z seats and could dye black, but am looking at maybe something like Recaro seats or similar clone with 5 point harness. The original GTO seats did not have much safety designed in them. Possibly a question to keep the board moving. dj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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