So please don't race on the freeways!

[Two40MuscleZ]

FYI - Here is some interesting facts you might want to consider before you think these two will be skating through their current problem. I am posting this after reading a few of the last posts. Unless your involved with the Criminal Justice System and/or are fimiliar with Prison Inmates and how things really are, you have "NO" clue as to what these two "young men" are about to face. Yeah, they are alive, but not in the sense most people know and understand. Contrary to what most invision, the Prison setting is nothing like you would ever imagine. I'm not talking County Jail, which is nothing compared to the State level, and which only deals with Felons. These two are "fresh meat" in the grand scope of things. They are about to discover a whole new set of rules to live and die by, set upon them by the "Inmates Code of Ethics and Conduct"! Case in point...if these two were not affiliated with a gang on the streets before going to Prison, now they will be forced into one. No choices given...you will be in one, period end of sentence. They will do exactly what the shot callers tell them to do. If the caller wants someone shanked, be it this kids life long friend...the kid better do it by the next day or its simple...he will be killed instead by another of his own group! He can be bought and sold for a few cigarettes, used, abused and then turned out to whomever wants him next. The cycle repeats without change or question. No one ever really sleeps in Prison, its your weakest time. Lots of things happen during those hours of darkness. Due to the severity of their offences, I'm projecting some where around their 50th birthday...something like 30 years with at least 85%, By that time their lives will have been reduced to nothing more than a stubbled waste. Once out they face society and all of its uglyness. Job...forget anything substantial...they will be fighting age, health problems (perhaps Hep, Aids and a host of others), and having to be labled a Felon when and wherever they apply of employment. So, with respect to looking more at the overall picture, these two really don't have lives anymore. They are just grouped in with a whole sea of Preditors, perverts, sadists, rapests, addicts, and assorted other lost souls. No, her death was not right, fair, just or anything else other than unnecessary. Nothing can right the wrong caused, in any measure. But, don't think that these two will not escape the laws of reality. They are just beginning a very long and hard journey. 'nough said!

 

VAN

[280z1975]

Thank you Two40MuscleZ for your post. These two men (if they are boys, they are about to grow up real quick) face a long road no one ever wants to travel.

 

I almost lostmy two cousins in a freeway accident 4 years ago, not street racing, just a speeding 18 wheeler and an SUV. They still aren't recovered to this day. One of them couldn't come to my wedding because she can't go into a plane because of the confined space.

 

And to those of you who are waiting for people to "flame" on this post I would ask WHY WOULD YOU EVER LET SOMEONE FLAME A RIGHT THING. Street racing, is ILLEGAL, STUPID and DANGEROUS. There is no place for it. If you support illegal street racing I will be the first to label you a moron and sign you up as an organ donor. If you got the need for speed take it to the track.

[bjhines]

I am so sorry to read this.

 

Damn idiot kids. Yes they are all still children at 22 years.

 

I am willing to vote for ANYONE who will raise the driving age to at least 21. I also believe that ALL drivers should go through a mandatory car handling course on a skidpad and at speed.

 

People of all ages should be forced to go through an intensive course that details moving with traffic, how to merge and exit on freeways, as well as general awareness of traffic around you.

 

I was trailering my 240Z back from Road Atlanta this weekend and passed scores of idiots. One minivan full of people with an older lady driving almost lost their lives trying to merge into 80MPH traffic at ~40MPH. I was unable to move over to avoid them and all I could do was to lay on the horn and flash my lights and slam on my brakes as that idiot lady tried to mege with 40MPH closing speeds. She has NO RIGHT to a license and I would have enjoyed bitch slapping her for endagering my life.

[twoeightythreez]

BjHines,

I totally don't agree with raising the driving age.

That would make things even worse (how would kids get back and forth to college, employment, etc...thier parents?)

You would simply have people driving illegally then. (Especially if you're in the military and married, how would you get to your home from the base? Public transportation isn't allowed on the base!)

If you're gonna vote for a change in teh licensing policy, vote to make it harder to get one, not to raise the driving age!

If the license was somthing you had to work at to get and was easy to lose people wouldn't chance it by doing stupid crap.

If you're gonna change a driving age, implement a "maximum" driving age.

after, say age, 55, make drivers requalify every year, and if they're caught doing stuff like going 40mph less than surrounding traffic, I think it's time to rip it up.

I mean, yes kids do stupid stuff intentionally but just because some old fart who can't see and respond well enough to drive does them unintentionally does not make it any better.

[twoeightythreez]

Two40muscle,

I also thank you for that post. I never meant to imply that they get to skate out of what they did, but how come they get a chance to fight for thier lives while she doesn't. Fate is such a motherfucker.

[280z1975]

Changing the driving age limit won't change things. Stupidity is a chronic condition which affects all age classes. These two kids were just stupid. Look at how much affect the drinking age being 21 has on alcohol related problems.

 

Kids need a check in reality. Two years ago I meet an 18 kid here in Belgium and he was all "I love America, I want to go there!" I asked, "Well where would you go?" He said, "I want to go to Los Angeles and be and illegal street racer! I want a fast Honda!" I had to stop the coke from coming out of my nose when I heard that. Man, this kids idea of America was skewed, bits of flashy movies and bad 90's sitcoms that lasted less than a season. He thought To Fast to Furious was real life.

 

The next line he uttered even made me more disturbed. "Then I want to go to Harlem and play basketball with the (a famous n word)." I will say in dutch, the common word for a black person sounds a lot like it and isn't derogatory, just like saying Caucasian. I set the kid straight about that dream (and use of that word in English, especially in Harlem when you are white) and possibly saved his life at the same time.

[Mikelly]

I'm sorry you lost your cousin due to someone being an idiot.

 

Your post is some serious flamebait man...

 

I dare someone to flame this thread... Go ahead if you want to get banned... Got it?

 

Mike

[bjhines]

I agree that imposing more age limits on the driving age will cause trouble for young and old.

TwoeightythreeZ has a good point about making certain age groups re-certify their driving abilities every year. That would keep people serious about good driving and thinking about the fact that they drive under a low tolerance provision. That way people who MUST drive have the opportunity while those who abuse their privelages will have to walk.

 

There is a serious problem with the attitude of people on the roads. They are completely unaware of ANYTHING going on around them. They seriously don't care.

I think younger and older drivers should have a camera mounted in the cockpit that monitors their every move. If they so much as take their hands off the wheel to pick their nose... points are scored against their driving privelage.

Change lanes without turning your head to look scores more points against you,

Failure to signal,

late braking,

failing to look in the rear view every 30 seconds,

deviations of more than 5MPH from the speed limit,

monitoring of eye movements showing lack of awareness or sleep,

traveling in the passing lane,

and a thousand other violations of common sense driving.

 

You could also limit the times of day that people drive,

You could also limit access to certain roads during busy times.

 

Make the provisional drivers pay for the monitoring equipment. Mass production of these systems and their monitoring programs could get the price down to <$1000. These people are increasing ALL of our insurance rates. They should foot the bill for their own monitoring.

Even a lack of defensive driving should count against these provisional drivers. Any accident even if it is not their fault should count heavily against them.

[JMortensen]

I agree that imposing more age limits on the driving age will cause trouble for young and old.

TwoeightythreeZ has a good point about making certain age groups re-certify their driving abilities every year. That would keep people serious about good driving and thinking about the fact that they drive under a low tolerance provision. That way people who MUST drive have the opportunity while those who abuse their privelages will have to walk.

 

There is a serious problem with the attitude of people on the roads. They are completely unaware of ANYTHING going on around them. They seriously don't care.

I think younger and older drivers should have a camera mounted in the cockpit that monitors their every move. If they so much as take their hands off the wheel to pick their nose... points are scored against their driving privelage.

Change lanes without turning your head to look scores more points against you,

Failure to signal,

late braking,

failing to look in the rear view every 30 seconds,

deviations of more than 5MPH from the speed limit,

monitoring of eye movements showing lack of awareness or sleep,

traveling in the passing lane,

and a thousand other violations of common sense driving.

 

You could also limit the times of day that people drive,

You could also limit access to certain roads during busy times.

Or we could just enforce the laws that are already in place...

[bjhines]

I don't like big brother in my mess, Dont get me wrong. I am not a commie.

BUT!

I think the MAJORITY of drivers need a tight knot jerked in them. Driving is more dangerous than ever with ever increasing amounts of traffic. I have absolutely ZERO tolerance for the majority of bad attitudes and sense of entitlement drivers have these days.

[bjhines]

These data aquisition systems are popular in hobby racing. Many of these systems are less than $1000. Data Aq. is a wonderful way to enforce the laws with ZERO tolerance and absolutely consistant application of the laws.

 

Make it mandatory for high risk drivers and it will keep them in line with NO tolerance for mistakes in judgement or awareness.

[savageskaterkid]

Getting your license later in life isn't gonna help significantly. If anything, Germany has a good idea (I have a teacher that was stationed in Germany for about 10yrs so he goes over this alot) Germany has less accidents per mile then the US, even on the autobahn, and noo-its not because there used to driving fast its because there better drivers all together. To get your license its something like 1 year of driving school, and costs about $1500 to obtain your license. The left lane is for passing only, you get caught riding in the left lane, you loose your license(for good I believe), the police will give you about 5 over the speed limit or whatever it is in KM/H, but after that, your done-unless its the autobahn. You NEVER down talk the Polizei and tell them there wrong, because they will beat you, and then you'll loose your license, the Polizei are never wrong-There ALWAYS right.

 

Maybe we have some Germans that could elaborate on this?

[240Z_Master]

This isn't a flamebait, and this isn't a discussion for the driving age. Please bear with my bitching because this thread has gone in a direction that I had not seen coming (to $hit basically). Please do realize the few things I've had to say. Bear with me while I rant for just a sec because I do have to go to a funeral this week.

 

1) People make stupid mistakes in life, some worse than others. I'm sure no one in their right minds would want to kill their friend nor did they ever conceive of the idea that this would have happened (unless it was planned murder, in which I hope not). I do realize that this is an accident due to stupidity and I wanted to share a story from my own point of view so that it may not happen to anyone you know, or even yourself.

 

2) If you have a problem with the laws, please contact your congressman or congresswoman, that's what they're there for. Take advantage of it! I'm always open for discussion on the driving laws if you want, but please make a new thread and we'll have tons of discussions on it. I don't think this is the proper discussion about who can drive or who can't.

 

3) I would like to thank all of you who took the time to respond and share my grief. I respect each and every one of your opinons and the thought and time you have put into all of your posts.

 

4) Please feel free to send me a PM about all your concerns if you wish when this thread gets locked.

 

 

Admins... if you wish to lock this thread at this point in time, you may do so before it gets off topic any further. Thank you.

[bjhines]

Savageskaterkid has brought up a great point about how they do it in Germany. That sounds like it would be a great first step here in the US.

[z-hag]

having been critical care area nursie for many many years, and having held cal club and sfr scca memberships --years ago--i know the value of good car control and focus on the driving. so many things happen that are irreversible when the attention drifts--conversing on cell, whatever--and then i got to have to tell parents/children/whomever.....about the problems and progresses and such , of their icu/ er/ pacu patient-family member. very not cool. the accidents are so easily avoided just by paying attention and knowing how to drive and keep control of the car.

i survived many (5) accidents learning car control-the hard way--not in a controlled setting. ouch. no one was huirt and the dents were not large.....but the principle is that should not have happened--i think kids would pay better attention in drivers ed if the program included HOW TO DRIVE.........not just how to make a straight line and turn the wheels without hitting anything. parents need to instill into their kids a responsibility factor.

HAY--I YAM OVER 55 and i drive well. the seniors with BLUE HAIR are the ones ----and the men over the age of ability to see over the steering wheel.........

[G.I.jonas]

My condolences as well,however i just want to teleport everyone back a few years or more.Because of the circumstances it is easy to immediately call someone stupid or ignorant,but i guarantee everyone here at one time or another has done things that could have or should have had the same or worse results but luck won over.Unfortunately these kids did not have the luck at the right time to prevent this horrible accident.Most people i know would consider me a reasonably responsible and inteligent person but if any one of the many stupid things i did when i was younger(especially in the presence of girls)had gone differently i would be labeled an idiot forever.What happened to this girl is horrible but as has already been touched on,these kids are by no means off the hook,just imagine what they will live with from now on.I realize i do not know these two and it is entirely possible that they are complete useless morons,but accidents happen regardless.As far as laws are concerned i definately agree with the comment made that stupidity is rampant and does not discriminate,for this reason people really should have to be practically race trained to get a license,imagine how many accidents would be avoided if we all learned on a track with 400hp before even being able to drive to the store.

[bjhines]

My attitude is more about awareness and common sense and courtesy. I really don't want to harp on car control skills. I value them highly, But I don't think a 400HP track car has any relevance to daily driving skills and awareness.

 

Awareness of the universe around you and awareness of the RULES! are what matter. Car control is important but should not be the focus of a driving program.

 

I instruct at HPDE schools regularly, and I see more value in awareness than actual handling skills. People who lack handling skills can see improvements in lap times by increasing their awareness of what they are doing. At no point do they HAVE to be able to recover from a loss of control. The goal of HPDE instruction is to make drivers consistent and aware of what they are doing WITHOUT getting into a slip situation.

 

If you want to learn about slip angles and recovery then do it on a soaped down SKIDPAD FIRST.

[Mikelly]

You can actually do something like this with a simple GPS monitoring tool. It wouldn't be as extensive as Data Aq, but would at least show you where the individual has been and the speeds traveled...

 

And Chris makes some very good points that should also bleed over into motorcycle licensing.

 

240Z_Master, Sorry to hijack the thread. I'm dealing with a family tragedy as well, but involving a semi-truck driver not paying attention to her rig and the road. Lot of people out there on the road doing other things besides driving.

 

Mike