E85

[Guest nx2000de]

Has anyone on this forum converted their cars too run E85???

just wondering i was watching fifth gear and came across a kick ass lotus exige running on E85 it has higher octane but lower milage less BTU's something like that.

[e_racer1999]

from what i heard, unless the vehicle is "flexfuel" (or comparable), the ethanol will cause the rubber and other gaskets to deteriorate. also, i think lubrication may be difficult because of the solvent properties of ethanol.

 

i'm always open to corrections in my information.....

[Tony D]

Meh... you can run synthetic oil to combat the diluition of the Ethanol. Newer synthetic rubbers compounded for EFI take in to account the Alcohol Content of current gasoline. Making changeout like in the old days un-necessary.

 

I converted a VW to run 100% Ethanol back in the early 80s'. Terrible mileage and hard to start when cold is an understatement.

 

EFI should take care of the starting, and some of the fuel consumption issue...

 

Then again...why?

[e_racer1999]

well, i suppose the "why" could be running fantastic compression on a renewable fuel. at least that would be my reasoning behind switching to e85/ethanol. doesn't ethanol run cooler, too?

[Tony D]

What part of the '85' is renewable?

 

M85 is a better alternative, IMO, but both are a lie when it comes to 'renewable fuel' most Ethanol is hydrocracked form crude oil here in CA because it's cheaper. In the midwest Ethanol is a good subsidy to keep people employed, but it's really kind of an irresponsible way to make people think it makes a difference.

 

You can run Fantastic Compression on CNG, and CNG truly IS a 'renewable fuel' as you can (and people do) recover medium btu CH4 from landfills. This goes through conventional stripping and refining processes, and the CO2 is recovered for use to put bubbles in beer, and the 1100 BTU / CF Methane is ready for use as pipeline gas, or vehicular fueling.

 

Alcohol makes for a neat subsidy for ADM, but the petroleum used to grow the corn kind of skews the equation. There is a lot more to it than the propaganda the AG Collective foists on the unwitting media.

 

I'm no conspiracy theorist, I was a TMEN Alcohol Fuel Seminar Attendee (by proxy--couldn't travel to NC when it was happening, so paid the full boat for all the materials, still have that orange folder aroudn somewhere...cost me $$$ back in the day!)

 

Alcohol is sustainable for Farm Usage---that is to say some sort of Mad-Max existence where people make their own fuel to survive. Enough can be made on small parcels using the correct feedstocks to keep you in fuel.

 

But without the freely available petroleum distillate of gasoline it takes a LOT of alky to go anywhere. I produced close to 500 gallons, which drove me close to 5000 miles over a period of a year. The only way it was even sustainable was for me to mix my own 'gasahol' and get the federal taxes back on the gasoline I mixed with it.

 

Without government subsidies, neither M85 or E85 is a viable fuel that would support their own refining and production costs in the open market.

 

You want "fantastic compression" propane and CNG have octane ratings in the 115-120 range! And having driven dedicated CNG and Propane vehicles, the torque you get is tremendous compared to gasoline engines....

[e_racer1999]

thanks for that information! ya, i must have brain farted on the fact that farms require petrol to operate

 

my dad had a '78 malibu that ran on propane. i don't recall it having much power, but then again those late 70s GM V6s are anemic at best!

 

i always thought that CNG was a lot more indepth of a conversion, though....

[Daeron]

You want "fantastic compression" propane and CNG have octane ratings in the 115-120 range! And having driven dedicated CNG and Propane vehicles, the torque you get is tremendous compared to gasoline engines....

 

 

I was fully aware of everything else you posted here, tonyD....

 

but NOT the octane ratings of CNG/LPG.. and I have been in love with the idea of converting a car to run on LPG for over ten years.. since I was thirteen or so.

 

you just had a major impact on my life. before I always thought that the idea of a Z on LPG was a pipe dream.. now, it may not be. Finally, a way to pass my Z on to my grandkids!!!

[Sparky]

One of the big problems with E85 is the hype that soccer moms and the bandwagon riders spew forth every day. E85 burns a little cleaner, but you have to burn more to make the same power, around 25% more is what I was told...its all in the BTUs.

 

Not only that, but it takes fuel to plow the fields (if its bio based), it takes fuel to plant the crop, fuel to fertilize it, fuel to water it, fuel to harvest it, fuel to transport it, fuel to refine it, and fuel to transport it again to the local outlet, the key words in the future of fuels is "embedded energy." same thing when you try and select materials to build a "green" or "sustainable" home or office...where was it made, how was it made, etc etc.

 

when it comes to long term reliabilty future fuel source, E85 is not it. Thats my opinion of course...

 

That aside, I will be converting my car into a "flex fuel" vehicle of sorts. the haltech has a dual map feature that I intend to take advantage of by running my turbo Zed on E85 most of the time. I don't intend to put many miles on her, and she is not my main vehicle. The alure of lower EGTs combined with a more affordable higher octane fuel and the cooling properties of E85 on the intake charge make it right for me and my hobbiest application.

 

It will be some time though before my conversion happens, my injectors will simply not do, my turbo technology needs an update, and I must swap out my steel fuel lines for an anodized aluminium version. My tank has already been coated to handle E85, and all my mechanical bits (fuel pump, pressure regulator, rubber hose) is already up to spec.

[JustinOlson]

Even if E85 isn't going to save the world, it is great for turbo cars. People are making great power on it. A local supra guy is putting down 800whp with it. Amazing "pump" fuel.

[Sparky]

Are you speaking of Michael and his very nize red ZG-type flared Supra?

 

I've spoken to him a few times about my conversion, very nice, and very knowledgeable, he even offered to help tweak my fuel and ignition map when I'm done with my conversion.

 

 

 

Even if E85 isn't going to save the world, it is great for turbo cars. People are making great power on it. A local supra guy is putting down 800whp with it. Amazing "pump" fuel.

[510six]

http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=47094.0

 

I am planning on converting my car over to E85 when it becomes avalable in my area.The results from the methanol injection sold me on methanol, the plan is to run E85 in the primary fuel sytem and suppliment with 35% methanol as the boost comes up.I am not planning on saving the world ,just running 105 octain fuel out of the pump is my idea of a good time.

[Guest nx2000de]

cool stuff guys maybe i will convert the VK45DE to E85 when she is in the Zed..

[Pop N Wood]

M85 is a better alternative, IMO, but both are a lie when it comes to 'renewable fuel' most Ethanol is hydrocracked form crude oil here in CA because it's cheaper. In the midwest Ethanol is a good subsidy to keep people employed, but it's really kind of an irresponsible way to make people think it makes a difference.

 

LOL. I like the way you think.

 

Of course, if gas hits $5 to $10 a gallon than ethanol might be cost effective without subsidies...

 

Flex fuel vehicles need some type of fuel sensor to analyze the fuel and allow the computer to properly set the fuel mixture. If you don't have this, then you will be forced to run only the type of fuel your engine is tuned for. Not a minor issue since E85 isn't available everywhere.

 

From the little bit of reading I have done on the subject, you need a different AF ratio setting at the O2 sensor with alcohol than with gasoline. Hence the need for the sensor.

 

CNG may allow higher compression ratios, but make sure you weigh all the trade offs with this type of fuel before converting your vehicle.

 

Does anyone know if tracks have safety restrictions for cars with CNG fuel tanks?

[myplasticegg]

I plan on running on E85 when it is in the area. I figure a Flexfuel Suburban fuel pump *should* be big enough for a 250-300whp L28et. 37pph injectors out of a flex fuel 2.5L dodge should be plenty of fuel. Stainless fuel rail seems to be the only problem so far... I just ordered my Megasquirt last night, I'll tune for gas and when the E85 is around i'll start the process again.

[76s30]

back before diesel became as popular as it is today, hell even now. farmers ran irriagation pumps on NG when the engine was designed for it not a "converted" gas engine, they made great power and lasted almost forever.

 

for now I'll stick with running a diesel DD the fuel is cheaper and you go farther on a gallon.

[Tony D]

The conversions in a CNG vehicle are safer than a gasoline vehicle. They are DOT compliant for fuel system integrity far better than liquid-fuel vehicles. If you were to hit a CNG vehicle hard enough to dislodge the fuel storage tanks, or break them free from their lines in the vehicle, they each have their own 'blowout' valve that seals the tank...letting it skitter along the highway shooting sparks, whatever, with absolutely no fuel venting. Watching the testing was very illuminating...

 

What is the cost of E85 anyway? For around $4.50 I get 100 octane at the pump (VP Racing Fuel at the local Circle K, about 2 miles from my house)...

 

I'm not sure what it is for the Propane at the tank there, I know it's about $10 for a five gallon refill up the street, so they have to be in that area. Propane, at 115 octane has the 'liquid fuel' mileage advantage---that is you can put enough onboard to not have any mileage penalty compared to Gasoline. If you prepare the engine to take advantage of the added octane you get a VERY nice driveable vehicle. The 'powerless' conversions are universally converted standard gasoline engines. I know the Ford Modular 5.4 Triton has a special CNG part number, Forged Slugs, and 13:1 compression from Father Ford's Factory! Makes for a sleeper gasoline engine if you swap some cams and run racing gas.... But I digress.

 

I'm thinking Propane was 115 octane, and CNG was slightly higher at 120. And those are R+M/2 numbers---pump octane. They do run extremenly clean in both cases. The only downfall I see with LPG (propane) is that if you live where it can get to -40, you end up with insufficient tank pressure for the car to do high speed runs before warming up a bit, so you have some heat in the tank to keep up pressure. LPG's condensing point is somewhere around -40... CNG is cryogenic. It's like -345 or some ridiculous number. You can get that, usually at Bus Stations for Metro Use, or Trash Truck Maintenance Yards. Waste Management in SoCal uses LNG on some trucks, CNG on others. Sad to say, LNG will probably not make it to pedestrian vehicular usage simply because of NASA style refueling procedures. The...uhm...'unskilled laborers' at the SoCal Truck Fueling Stations for WMI had 'issues' comprehending proper fueling procedures. It IS a cryogenic liquid, after all, and there is a modicum of safety steps you should observe! Maybe language was part of the comprehension problem...

 

Lots of vehicles out there to snag surplus parts from, as well as buying new stuff.

 

And remember, CNG is renewable! We make it from trash... 1100btu's per CF... I forget what it's selling for at the station by my house, but it's around a buck lower than Gas...and that's simply an ethical marketing price cap---originally the pricing was supposed to be 20% less than gas or diesel simply as a large enough incentive for fleets and taxis to use it without subsidies (T. Boon Pickens is behind this initiative in many states...). There was finally a point with the price of gasoline pricing moving continually upward that the corporate heads said 'enough is enough' and they pretty much haven't raised prices in over 18 months. Hell, you can fuel at home with a slow-fill system off your home's Natural Gas Line for the equivalent of about .40 cents a gallon equivalent. You just pay with your motnhly utility bill...

 

CNG just makes the most sense in my book, since infrastructure exists to do it NOW, and the fueling at home really appeals to me.

[Daeron]

TonyD, I hate to nag you about this.. but I HAVE to know where I can find information on building or purchasing a system to run CNG or LPG on a turbocharged Z. The idea of a propane powered vehicle has intrigued me since I first started picking up a wrench when I was twelve, and now that you have explained to me that its 115-120 octane.. I simply must know.

 

I have researched converting my old Subaru to run on propane; that would be a simple issue, since I could simply buy a venturi/regulator valve, restrofit that into my throttle body in place of the injector, and install the ignition system from a carb'ed subaru onto it.. but that is an econobox, TBI system that I would not be interested in high power out of. The Z I would want to be going for a mid/high compression, low boost turbo application (thinking about 10:1 comp, 10PSI boost, and see if I can get enough flow through the snails/intake/heads to let that combination steer me up towards the 300-400 horse mark)

 

All I can do on my car right now is read and learn; so I am not going to be buying or building anything anytime soon. I just want to know where I can go to find out more. My (pathetic?) attempts to find information on the web via google search have turned up nothing that wasn't either sinply an ad for a vehicle-specific kit, or a detailed write-up on how to basically make a propane carburetor. Nothing regarding potential high-power, sportscar type application; in fact, none of the "info" modern injection-type systems was any more informative than an advertisement.

 

Thanks in advance.. as I said, LPG/CNG have been my primary thoughts regarding "alternative fuel" since back in the days when I was a treehugger first, and a Z-car guy second. (in other words, for a very very long time. I was an idealistic kid at ten years old; we were ALL supposed to love the environment then. I have been a gearhead first for a LONG time now.)

[Flexicoker]

Sorry if this doesn't flow well, I just got my wisdom teeth pulled... and for some reason, this medicine is making it hard to concentrate.

 

 

We have a CNG truck that was converted back in... '93 I think. It has raised compression, different cam... and a Reher-Morrison ported head, haha. There is so much torqre that you can spin the tires so slowly that you can still read the words on the side on them while they're going. Its awesome! The range on it is not very good, but I'm not sure how big the tank is. Also, finding fuel for it is an issue, we have to go ~15 miles to get to the station. I have no idea how much fuel costs. I might be able to get my hands on a report that was written on this if there's interest.

 

 

 

E85 is sort of a pain in the ass. But has some real nice benefits that were already mentioned here. We ran a Honda CBR250, thats a 250cc 4 cyl, 20,000rpm redline, that we turbocharged and and ran on the stuff. Stock the engine made ~45hp, and afterwards made 72 which is where we choked our restrictor. That was non-intercooled with 11.5 static compression ratio. It has such a great latent heat of vaporization that depending on the amount of boost you're running, and how efficiently you're compressing it, you can probably get away without an intercooler if you're going forced induction and place your injectors right.

 

I saw an article a little while ago where they ran a flex fuel Tahoe on gasonline and then E85, and with E85 it got worse gas mileage of course, BUT, the 0-60 improved. I didn't think you would be making more power without raising compression first. But I was wrong. Here's the article:

 

http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.aspx?contentid=4024242

 

Also E85 is corrosive, so everything thats going to be in contace with it needs to be stainless steel, hard anodized aluminum, alcohol compatable rubber, etc. JB Weld is NOT compatable.

 

 

Here's some compatability information that was collected off the internet and condensed for our Turbo250 project. No gaurantees are made to its accuracy.

 

 

A √ indicates compatability.

 

Aluminum

Most Rubber*

Teflon √

Stainless Steel √

Natural Rubber √

Latex √

Brass

Cast Iron √

Tin √

Copper

Steel

Nickel √

Glass √

Fiberglass** √

Most Plastics*** √

Flex Pipe √

Anodized Aluminum Hardcoat √

Anodized Aluminum √

Zinc

Cork

Lead

Silicone √

Butyl √

Nitrile Latex √

Neoprene √

Titanium √

Carbon Steel √

Galvanized Steel √

PVC √

 

 

 

Fuel filters may clog because ethanol will break apart sediment in the tank. It also will pick up more water which stays suspended in the alcohol. There are fewer problems with higher concentrations of ethanol.

 

*O-rings and seals in some standard dispensers are affected by E85. Equipment must be specialized. Nitrile has been successfully used.

 

 

**Problems exist with single-walled fiberglass tanks. Double-walled tanks and piping are completely compatible.

 

 

 

***See next page

 

Plastic Durability

 

 

 

 

 

Type of Plastic

 

 

 

 

 

Extent of Durability

 

 

 

Conventional Polyethylene

 

 

 

 

 

Good

 

 

 

High-Density Polythylene

 

 

 

 

 

Excellent

 

 

 

Teflon

 

 

 

 

 

Excellent

 

 

 

Tefzel

 

 

 

 

 

Excellent

 

 

 

Polypropylene

 

 

 

 

 

Good

 

 

 

Polymethylpentene

 

 

 

 

 

Good

 

 

 

Polycarbonate

 

 

 

 

 

Good

 

 

 

Polyvinyl Chloride

 

 

 

 

 

Good

 

 

 

 

Excellent: Will tolerate years of exposure

Good: No damage after 30 days, should tolerate years of exposure

[Tony D]

I forgot the name of the at-home fueling system you can buy and hook up to your home's natural gas line, but it was around $1500 outright. Of course, there are state and federal tax incentives....this can seriously cut the price. It will take overnight (around 6-8 hours) to fill a smaller car's tank with about 12 gallons (gasoline) equivalent of CNG at aroudn 4100 psig (for operation to a temperature compensated 3600 psi)---slow fills always give you more range due to being able to go right up to the safety relief valve setting on the tank... Anyway, the amortized costs of the fueling is about 40 cents a gallon when you factor in electricity to run it. Your payback on the cost of the unit depends on how much you use it and how much gasoline costs locally...

 

Anyway, IMPCO is the OE supplier of Propane and CNG components to GM at least. I took care of their flowbench, testing, and R&D CNG Fuel Injector complex from 99 to 2002---right across from John Wayne Airport in Costa Mesa...Santa Ana, whatever...

 

I believe IMPCO is a parts/components suppler.

 

There was a company on Gothard Ave in Huntington Beach called "AFV" (Alternative Fuel Vehicles) which was a BIG converter of busses, cabs, and specialty vehicles. You may be able to see if they have a listed number or website and check them out for components as well.

 

My thoughts on the conversion were to buy a surplus government vehicle for cheap, and scavenge the major components onto another vehicle.

 

If you think about it, there are PLENTY of CNG Crown Victorias, and swapping that WHOLE 5.0 drivetrain (or even the new modular 4.6) into a Z would be fairly straightforward. The BEST part is that you can (after the car is converted) here in CA, apply for the "HOV" lane stickers.

 

CAN YOU IMAGINE: "Tree Huggers" in their cramped and generic Prius and Insights trundling along ALONE in the "HOV" lane (carpool lane) and being passed by a ROARING SNORTING HYBRID Z powered by CNG?

 

I mean, I drove a CNG truck with those Carpool lane stickers on it, and was continually pulled over by the CHP and Sheriff. I GOT OFF playing the 'hippie' with phrases like 'Hey, Duuuude, it's a CNG vehicle, Duuude. Didn't you see the sticker?' They always were shocked, and then apologized for pulling me over. One even said "Sorry, I'm an Idiot! I looked right at it, and it didn't even register! Have a nice day!"

 

When was the last time a cop apologized to you for pulling you over? I mean, many times I was doing 80 in a 65 when they pulled me over, and the DOH-Factor just made them run back to the cruiser with their tail between their legs!

 

I mean, really, that ALONE is worth the conversion hassle in my book! LOL

[Cable]

http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=47094.0

 

I am planning on converting my car over to E85 when it becomes avalable in my area.The results from the methanol injection sold me on methanol, the plan is to run E85 in the primary fuel sytem and suppliment with 35% methanol as the boost comes up.I am not planning on saving the world ,just running 105 octain fuel out of the pump is my idea of a good time.

 

Ditto.

 

I am waiting to build my next BBC to see if the E85 really comes around. If so I will build a higher compression motor and it will run better with no worries about race gas.