Ethics vs Performance

[Tony D]

"What I actually said is "Up against your reputation is that my buddy is willing to offer me certain financial terms, and will warra..."

 

That's not what you meant, but it is what you said. CalPoly says you're overanalyzing the phone call, and I'd agree. But that is what I was referring to as 'a lie, intentional or not intentional'. If you meant warranty issue stick with it, financials are something totally different.

 

You seem offended that the guy exercised his perogative to be done with you. You couch it as him 'acting like a bag of c*ck'...

 

We all tend to take ourselves with too much importance. You seem offended that the guy acted like he needed you less than you thought he should have.

 

He has the right to refuse service, and though abrupt, gave you his reasons to be done with the situation. Doesn't sound like he was interested in pursuing what he saw as more trouble than the job was worth. It's his decision to make.

 

Then again, it may be his way of rationalizing to himself 'he doesn't need my level of prep work, and is already trying to screw me down on price, so I don't need this right now!'

 

Any of the reasons are valid. Nobody ever said everyone you deal with will play games. Some people get to a point in their life where they are done with it, and if it's a particularly bad day...then they are really intolerant of any gamesmanship. You say it was mis speaking, but he didn't know that, and has the right not to care, either.

 

You don't need (as you have discerned) a 'built' engine for only 300HP in a turbo application. So go with your buddy, and quit dwelling on the fact that the guy didn't need you as much as you thought he should. He could have been a lot more abrupt, at least he gave you a reason. Mis speak or not, it's not worth dwelling on, it's his right to work for who he chooses. You don't need to save him from his own (in your apprasial) rash actions.

[dr_hunt]

For those of you that don't know the pinks engine had a braap head on it and it was a work of art!

[Forrest]

I would not do business with anyone who cut me off and hung up on me. If you weren't being rude, then there's no excuse for that. In the specialty market, customer service is extremely important.

 

I also think Robello gave you some solid advice. A 300whp goal on an L28ET doesn't warrant race-prepping an engine. Nissan did right by us to begin with.

 

Good luck!

[badjuju]

I love you guys. You folks ever in Seattle, I'll buy you a beer.

 

Braap, you build an l28et and I'll wear a sticker on my car. And pay for the motor.

 

Tony, wasn't thinking you were actually calling me a liar, but thanks for clearing that up. Honestly, it does offend me that he was so rude, and I don't think it's a good business practice. Bad day or not, I'm holding him accountable for the way he spoke to me. Think about how many guys have knocked up some chick while drunk. "I was drunk" isn't a good enough excuse to get out of child support. or something like that.

 

Whether or not he cares that I'm holding him accountable is a different story, lol

 

Thanks for your opinions guys.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

("I'll buy you a beer" offer applies only to Hybridz members not currently residing or visiting Seattle. Member must be in Seattle at time of redemption. Standing on the border of the city with one's member within city limits does not warrant redemption of "I'll buy you a beer" offer. Limit one beer per member. "Beer" in question is of brand and brew of BadJuju's choice. No cash value. Non Transferable, must be 21 or older, or a really hott (with two t's) chick. Note, BadJuju lives on UW's campus, hott means hott. If you've read this whole text in an attempt to get one free beer, offer is void in Washington state.)

[Daeron]

Member must be in Seattle at time of redemption. Standing on the border of the city with one's member within city limits does not warrant redemption of "I'll buy you a beer" offer.

 

 

Wow......

 

 

 

 

 

[e_racer1999]

("I'll buy you a beer" offer applies only to Hybridz members not currently residing or visiting Seattle. Member must be in Seattle at time of redemption. Standing on the border of the city with one's member within city limits does not warrant redemption of "I'll buy you a beer" offer. Limit one beer per member. "Beer" in question is of brand and brew of BadJuju's choice. No cash value. Non Transferable, must be 21 or older, or a really hott (with two t's) chick. Note, BadJuju lives on UW's campus, hott means hott. If you've read this whole text in an attempt to get one free beer, offer is void in Washington state.)

 

LOL

[JSM]

I've seen many posts in support of Zsports position, but Bottom line, if you have all the tallent in the world, but don't have the people skills to run a business, you really shouldn't be in business.

 

As a business owner, part of YOUR responsiblity is dealing with rude, dumb moochers who want something for nothing. If you don't think this is your responsiblity you won't be in business for long, your living under a rock, or you have such a high profit margin that you need so few customers.

 

As a customer, I don't care what kind of day your having, unless you communicate up front with me your having a bad one. I'm looking for information or a service.

 

In most business, there is ALWAYS someone else you could use, there is ALWAYS somone better than you, there is ALWAYS someone smatter then you.

 

Please have a nice day!

[smoorenc]

This is why I went wih Speed Designs Inc. They understand my budget and advise me of how to achieve my goal within my budget. They work and communicate with me every step of the way. They even let me help.... I think they are charging extra for that though LOL

I went with a company that has good work ethics and produce great product. I think the extra you pay for quality work is worth it.

[WizardBlack]

I used to own a speed shop and I can say that I understand the issues that all the other shop owners are bringing up. I try to be helpful and answer a lot of technical questions. At the end of the day, if someone says "why aren't you as cheap as my buddy" just burns you up. Do you really think your buddy will pay parts and labour if something happens? Really? The other kicker is when you deal with one of the 30 minute technical teaching calls only to find out that the part you helped him select is 5~10% cheaper on ebay so they buy it there.

If you want the serious, golden relationship with your shop; stick with the ppl that take the time and money to teach you everything and help you learn. By window shoping their service against a less informed, less experienced or less thorough alternative you indirectly insult the value of their services. It would be like price comparing a 321SS mandrel bent race exhaust with dyno testing from a speed shop against a 'parts bin special' crush bent mild steel clamped-together exhaust from your local Meineke or equivalent.

[WizardBlack]

 

As a business owner, part of YOUR responsiblity is dealing with rude, dumb moochers who want something for nothing.

 

 

Not saying the OP is rude or dumb or a moocher, but I humbly protest the facts about a business owner having that responsibility. They can easily determine they don't wish to do business with you just as the reverse is true. I think this is very important for the customer and business to determine up front to avoid unpleasantness further down the road.

I have had customers in the past that are simply a PITA and will never be happy. Not unless it's bombproof, makes twice as much power on half as much gas and was free to boot. Once you have been in business for a while you start to develop a radar for those ppl and do what you can to AVOID selling them any part or service.

My guess is the $2400 quote was an indication that the OP had somehow set off the shop's alert and they were trying to price themselves out of the job.

[BRAAP]

.......I understand the issues that all the other shop owners are bringing up. I try to be helpful and answer a lot of technical questions. At the end of the day, if someone says "why aren't you as cheap as my buddy" just burns you up. ......

 

...... The other kicker is when you deal with one of the 30 minute technical teaching calls only to find out that the part you helped him select is 5~10% cheaper on ebay so they buy it there.....

 

If you want the serious, golden relationship with your shop; stick with the ppl that take the time and money to teach you everything and help you learn. By window shoping their service against a less informed, less experienced or less thorough alternative you indirectly insult the value of their services. It would be like price comparing a 321SS mandrel bent race exhaust with dyno testing from a speed shop against a 'parts bin special' crush bent mild steel clamped-together exhaust from your local Meineke or equivalent....

 

...and the lords good people said, "AMEN!"

[JSM]

They can easily determine they don't wish to do business with you just as the reverse is true. I think this is very important for the customer and business to determine up front to avoid unpleasantness further down the road.

 

I agree 100% with you, however, your job as an owner is to tell them, politley to F__K off. You need to do it politey though.

 

Hanging up is not polite, period. It is unprofessional, rude and leaves a bad taste in a potential customers mouth.

 

It is a very fine line and a difficult one at best and sometimes it is okay to burn a bridge or two, in the extreme cases, but your job as a owner is too sell, sell, sell and to kiss arss.

[JSM]

I always bring up Gene Berg in these instances. When you called for technical assistance, he immediately asked two things: What is your customer number, and what is the invoice number for the parts you are asking about? If you had neither, it was 'call back when you have them'.

 

This is perfect, professional, vauge and sparks enough info for a potential new client.

 

If the information they seek is really that important, they will buy.

[badjuju]

He pissed me off, and I have money to give him, so I'm not giving it to him. His product is not worth being treated as such, as I've been told by two professionals whose opinions (i would think) are more highly valued in this community than his. He treated me like an ass, without hearing my story. I don't think he was having a bad day, as about a month ago I came into his shop to buy a slave cyl, and he did much the same thing to me in his shop. That is to say he was rude, not that he hung up on me. However, before he talked to me, he got another call, and was an ******* to the person on the phone as well.

 

It was then that he originally quoted me $2400. I asked "how much does it cost to have you guys rebuild an l28et?"

"are we installing it?"

"no, I'll bring the motor in, have you guys do your thing, then pick it up and install it myself"

"$2400."

 

Doesn't seem to me that he was trying to price himself out, $2400 seems like a decent deal for a .020 rebuild. Given, I don't know a LOT about what would need to be replaced, and at this price he would probably be reusing some things.

 

During the call in question, I was planning on asking him all about what his rebuild entails.

 

Dave at Robello told me his rebuild is more of a remanufacture, and I'd be lucky if they reused the intake valves. He also told me it'd be $3800, plus about $50 to ship each way, and like $400 more if I wanted a 3.0L instead of just .020 or .040 over. He did NOT hang up on me. If my motor doesn't go out before I have the money to have Robello do the job, I'll gladly ship it down there and have them do it for me. It is currently shaving one or more pistons down though, meaning I might need to do this sooner (this car is my dd).

 

Any econ guys in here? I took 1 200 level course: The marginal cost to me of buying a motor from z sport exceeds the marginal benefit.

[Tony D]

This is perfect, professional, vauge and sparks enough info for a potential new client.

 

If the information they seek is really that important, they will buy.

 

I don't think you ever talked to Gene! LOL What I quoted there was an exchange that took MAYBE 5 seconds after he got on the phone!

 

Gene came on the line, said 'Customer Number & Invoice Number?'

 

If you did't have them, it was:

 

"Call back when you get them, CLICK!"

 

It was EXTREMELY RUDE!

 

Seriously, I would have LOVED to have someone take the time to tell me 'Well you've priced me out of the market, I was looking for an excuse not to build your engine anyway, GOOD BYE! CLICK!'

 

I am getting at the 'sensitive' nature of calling the guy rude. He gave a reason and hung up. FAR more than Gene did. Everybody runs their usiness in a different way, but Gene had good products, and was simply sick of rip-offs getting free advice. He was downright RUDE to people when they called, and turned A LOT of people off by that veneer.

 

Thing is he is STILL one of the originals in the VW scene. He survived because of this, so arrogantly thinking you are somehow doing him some terrible harm by not giving him your business is foolish.

 

"Bad day or not, I'm holding him accountable for the way he spoke to me."

 

LOL

 

I'm thinking the only accountability he will see is that he has time for someone who is not going to try and dick around on warranty or pricing.

 

We ALL take ourselves MUCH too importantly! We don't ammount to squat, really. To think we will somehow show some great impact on a business that does likely hundreds of thousands of dollars of business in a year if simply hubris or arrogance.

 

It's why a lot of business owners simply don't dwell on people they P.O., if they are a GOOD business, and occasionally you P-O someone, their impact will be deminimis at best. And going out of your way to 'make someone happy' who is niggling on the front end is probably a bad bet for further business, as it will only subject you to more pain.

 

Some customers you DON'T want. Let the next guy deal with them.

 

I learned that the hard way. Just let some go, and don't bother loosing sleep over their loss. It's not worth it.

 

I am laying money this is part of the reasoning behind not wasting any more time. Irrespective of what others did... Like I said earlier, it wasn't the first call to this place, but it WAS to the other places from what I can see.

 

The FIRST call is always the long and nice one. Try it once a week for six months and see if you get the same response from the guy giving out the advice. And there are people who will do that! Especially in MY business!

[JSM]

I don't think you ever talked to Gene! LOL What I quoted there was an exchange that took MAYBE 5 seconds after he got on the phone!

 

Gene came on the line, said 'Customer Number & Invoice Number?'

If you did't have them, it was:

"Call back when you get them, CLICK!"

 

It was EXTREMELY RUDE!

 

Oops! I understand.

 

I was very impressed with Electromotive. I bought mine on ebay, but the Tech support person (Nick) has been wonderful on the phone. I'm tempted to send him a gift just for all the FREE advise he has given me thus far.

[badjuju]

Tony, the chances of 1 voter impacting the outcome of a presidential election are something like those of being struck by lightning while masturbating in a ditch in the rain. I'm not sighting a source, but you catch my drift.

 

That being said, I still vote. My not doing business with him, will have an effect. If you say it won't, you're either lying or don't understand capitalism. Whatever minuscule effect his not having my $300 of profit will have on his business will be less than that of all these people reading these posts.

 

THAT being said, we're still discussing it. He's a prick. Your guy from CA was a prick. If this is the way these two particular businesses are run, that's fine, this is America, but this guy's still a prick, and I'm not gonna buy his ♥♥♥♥.

 

I would have had the patience to pay full in cash at the time of service, had his deal made me want his motor more than this other deal.

 

If discussing price and warranty is dicking around, I would say they're unimportant to the deal at hand. Being that the price of an automobile is always the biggest print in an ad (possibly aside from the name of the vehicle), I'd say it's not unimportant. I might even go so far as to say it is important.

 

This was the first phone call longer than "what does your slave cyl cost?" And he blew it. On the flip side, I talk to the other guy about twice a week, and have a 5-10 minute conversation with him about this stuff. To boot, I pay his cost.

 

Gary might not care, and that's fine, but my money is worth money to him, and he's not getting it. "I don't care" is a good argument I suppose, but I haven't spent the $5 here and there to do this and that for the last two months, and those little expenditures have added up to about 23 of the cost of a new motor for me.

 

In closing, little crap (that would be me, in this case) adds up quickly. While I know I'm not making a big impact, I also know I'm not supporting an assbag's delusions about his market power in my auto community.

 

-off to jerk off in a ditch

[Daeron]

honestly, I had figured that this thread moved WAY PAST the actual incident that sparked the thread, and had become a discussion purely about the ethics of doing business, both as a customer and as a seller/businessman/engine builder, in this case.

 

 

I think that it might behoove us all to take any and all "personal" voice out of the comments made in the last fifteen posts or so.. and consider it all to be a discussion about abstract concepts rather than the literal transaction (or lack thereof) that took place... in other words, I don't think it is so personal anymore

 

In the end, a man whose business comes in chunks of $5-15K, does NOT have to pander to everyone the same way *I* get to smile and deal with every jerk I bring a pizza to. That is a fact.

 

badjuju, you also, do NOT have to deal with someone who treated you gruffly; your opinion is your own and your damn right to stand by it... BUT, people vary on how they react to situations like this. Some of us are big tough alpha dogs, some of us are quiet, recessive little geeks, and theres a random handful of us Gammas out there who just wanna hug trees and make everyone happy.

 

Can't we all just... get along?????????????????

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA im a hippy.

[Tony D]

Don't speak ill of the Dead. Gene Berg was 'a dick' if you were trying to rip off his expertise, and I understand exactly why he did what he did. You call him names, but in a cutthroat business where everybody was ripping off his products, stealing his copyrighted instructions and enclosing them with THEIR Taiwan Made Knockoffs, and then simply filing B.K. when sued for infringement to duck sanctions and reopened a week later under another name.... And you asked about ETHICS? Gene didn't do any of that crap, his COMPETITORS did. Read your states local business practices code about what can happen to people who operate like that. Rarely if ever does.

 

Yeah, I go no grasp of capitalisim. Neither did Gene. That's why his business is still around with devoted customers that have been going there for 20+ years and all the rest with 'happy and engaging' counter people are all out of business. None of us (me,the late Gene Berg, etc)understand capitalisim, nor the business owners perogative to deal with those who he so chooses.

 

"If you say it won't, you're either lying or don't understand capitalism. "

 

Yes, I don't understand capitalisim. Agreed.

 

Let's also agree you don't understand volume distribution fundamentals. Your business simply is not that important to his business plan. There will be plenty of others. If not being important to a business is that unsettling to you I don't know what to say.

 

Not to rain on your parade, but personally, I'll now check this guy out just to see what kind of guy he is compared to your characterization of him. Never would have before. There's an old axiom (not capatialist I guess) that says "Negative Publicity is Publicity Nonetheless"...

 

You went from a position of asking about the business ethics into taking offense to someone who elocuted a position from the business owner's perspective. You may not want to hear it, but it's as valid as your side of the story. I don't know you or he, but from a general discussion of business ethics what you did was unethical. You (intentionally or unintentionally) misrepresented your position on purchasing the product from him. He did the most ethical thing (though CULTURALLY unacceptable in your CULTURAL context:) he abruptly hung up on you after a cursory reason for not continuing commerce with you.

 

What the problem is here is a CULTURAL context. You have a problem with HOW he terminated the transaction. ETHICALLY you were in the wrong by wasting his time and misrepresentation of your intentions. In come cultures (Korean, for instance) many times a shopkeeper will not say 'thank you' simply because it's implied, and they don't waste the time.

 

Argue all you want, but ethically you were operating in shady territory with your 'mis-speaking', but ethically he was in his rights to terminate for any reason, and in any manner he so chooses.

 

Am I clearer now?

 

Daeron makes a GOOD point when he says there is a big difference between the forces (CULTURAL) that force a businessman to interact depending on purchase size. EThically you should treat the $1 sale the same as a $1000 sale, and from the SOUNDS of what is being said, the business owner DOES treat all purchases and purchasers the same way wether small parts of large parts.

 

Probably not what you wanted to hear, but from an impartial look from someone unrelated to either participants in the transaction, that is what I'm seeing.