JMortensen Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Some of this might be a bit basic, but since this is my first paint job please bear with me. Since I stripped my car all the way down I'm a bit concerned about repainting with Rustoleum direct to the bare metal. I filled some dents with a quality marine grade filler straight on the bare metal, but I know that it's not absolutely totally smooth yet. I don't care too much about getting it perfect, but I also don't want it to look completely crappy. Bottom line is it will need to be better than it is now for me to be happy. The idea I'm getting from reading tech info online is that I really need to add filler primer so that I can sand it and look for high and low spots, and then maybe do some more small filler areas on top of the primer to get it reasonably flat. I just want to know that the primer I use will work with the Rustoleum. I had found Transtar 6464 http://www.shopforpaint.net/cart.php?target=product&product_id=570&category_id=73 and it is a roll-on primer, which sounds perfect. I also found a different website which said that you can add microballoons to the primer to make it a deeper fill. I have microballoons that I used for filler, so I could do that as well if it would help. I'm not sure if that's a safe thing to do on ALL primers though. Also one of the really nice things about the Rustoleum for me was the lack of isocyanates. I don't have any rebreather gear, nor do I have one of those full suits, so I'd rather just avoid that crap if I can. I guess the questions are: 1. What primer can I use safely with Rustoleum? Transtar 6464? 2. Does primer have isocyanates? Is there one that doesn't? 3. Can you add microballoons to any primer? 4. Should I just keep adding Rustoleum and wetsanding? (This one seems like a no, but I thought I'd ask...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olie05 Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 One of the things I remember being a highlight for rustoleum was that you could apply it directly to metal. Sounds like you want to use a primer to get the surface in better condition though. Why not use rustoleum spray primer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted December 10, 2007 Author Share Posted December 10, 2007 Yeah, I've been doing a bit of research (probably should have done that before posting) and it appears Rustoleum makes a spray can primer and also one that you can buy by the quart. I think I'm going to try the quart, and if it's not thick enough I'll add some microballoons to it to give it some depth, then go from there. All in all, this was a pretty stupid post... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Go to the classroom section of this site. Has some of the most direct answers I have found. http://www.autobodystore.com/home.shtml I used PPG Omni epoxy primer. From what I have read, epoxy primer does an excellent job adhereing to and sealing raw metal. It contains no isocyanates. You need to top coat it within 3 days of spraying it, but if that doesn't happen all you need to do is reprime it. And from what I have read the epoxy primer does a pretty good job of protecting the metal if it has to stay in primer for a period of time. I don't know if it is compatible with rustoleum. A call to a real body shop supplier should answer that question. I sprayed a few pieces I had fabricated and it sprays beautifully. The parts look good enough to leave as is. And this was spraying it at night in my backyard in 50 degree weather using a spray gun I had never used before. Plus the stuff I used comes in black. Perfect for the underside of the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 The high fill primer is designed to be easy sanding. The rustolium primer is designed to be an adhesion promoter. I would go with a DTM primer like the one you posted or Turbo 2k primer from southern polyurethanes which is also roll able. http://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/Product%20lines.htm I'm no expert but this is how I would do it. Roll on a couple of thick coats of 2k primer, spray on a guide coat. hand block with 180 or use 180 on a 6" DA and hand block the body lines, then hit it with 320 to get rid of the scratches (might be over kill for the Rustoleum) then go for the Rustoleum. Derek Yeah, I've been doing a bit of research (probably should have done that before posting) and it appears Rustoleum makes a spray can primer and also one that you can buy by the quart. I think I'm going to try the quart, and if it's not thick enough I'll add some microballoons to it to give it some depth, then go from there. All in all, this was a pretty stupid post... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted December 10, 2007 Author Share Posted December 10, 2007 Roll on a couple of thick coats of 2k primer, spray on a guide coat. hand block with 180 or use 180 on a 6" DA and hand block the body lines, then hit it with 320 to get rid of the scratches (might be over kill for the Rustoleum) then go for the Rustoleum. That answers another question I had. I was using 150 on my 5" DA and thinking, how much better does this really need to be before I can paint it? It looks pretty damn smooth as it is.Apparently the surface finish is pretty close already... On that link you sent, the Turbo 2K info is dead. Any idea what the difference is between the 2K and the Turbo 2K? Faster drying or builds faster, I'm guessing. Does it seem weird that I'll spend 5x as much on primer as paint??? Makes me want to try microballoons with the Rustoleum primer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Click on the tech sheets link and then you can download a pdf. most 2K primers take days to cure shrinking as they cure. Turbo 2K cures in 4 hours. Also the primer needs to be a DTM product. I agree with you on the prices. I'm doing a very basic base coat clear coat job on my Z and I have over $400.00 in paints and primers so far. Derek That answers another question I had. I was using 150 on my 5" DA and thinking, how much better does this really need to be before I can paint it? It looks pretty damn smooth as it is.Apparently the surface finish is pretty close already... On that link you sent, the Turbo 2K info is dead. Any idea what the difference is between the 2K and the Turbo 2K? Faster drying or builds faster, I'm guessing. Does it seem weird that I'll spend 5x as much on primer as paint??? Makes me want to try microballoons with the Rustoleum primer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janaka Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 primer is where its at. bad sealing of any substraight means that no matter the quality of the top coat/clear coat it has a great propensity to fail prematurely (lots of paint experience, just not automotive) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metallicar Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Rustoleum makes an epoxy primer. You can order thru a good paint store or even WWGrainger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmogSUX Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Just a note, I'm pretty sure with most paints it's highly reccomended that you use self etching primer on bare metal before applying an other primer or paint. My Rx7 was taken down to the metal and one of the guys at the body shop primered it and when the guy in charge of body work realized it he nearly fired the guy, redid the car and used etching primer..I guess it etches itself into the metal so it won't let go easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlderThanMe Posted December 15, 2007 Share Posted December 15, 2007 Just if you didn't know... Rutoleum is Lead based... Remember that when you remove it from the car you had better use some kind of liquid remover to not get paint dust in the air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmogSUX Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 ehh...yeah. I'm not the smartest and spray painted my car without a mask....black snot and black spit...needless to say I'm alive and learned my lesson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted December 16, 2007 Author Share Posted December 16, 2007 Just if you didn't know...Rutoleum is Lead based... Remember that when you remove it from the car you had better use some kind of liquid remover to not get paint dust in the air. I checked the MSDS sheets, and none of the products I'm using (Zero Rust, Rustoleum Clean Metal Primer, Rustoleum Stops Rust Protective Enamel) have lead in them. I did finally decide to do the Rustoleum primer. I came to the conclusion that its a friggin race car and it's more important to get the damn thing together than to keep sanding it and painting it over and over. I'm guessing this won't be the last time this car gets painted. I painted the underside and the engine compartment today. I painted most of it with a brush using the Zero Rust. What a PITA. Eventually I switched to a touch up gun that I bought a while back, and it was MUCH easier to deal with, even though the gun is tiny and I had to refill the cup over and over. After this experience I think I'm going to spray the Rustoleum, because I'm convinced it will be so much smoother and easier to wetsand. I also tried to spray the Zero Rust into the frame rails with a gun I got from Eastwood. It didn't work for crap. I think the problem may be that I lowered the air pressure on my regulator to 40 psi. I'll try again tomorrow and see if I can't do any better. If not I'll just spray some oil in there and hope for the best. The plan was to do the Zero Rust and then the oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted December 24, 2007 Author Share Posted December 24, 2007 Changing air pressure in that undercoating gun didn't make any difference. The Zero Rust just wasn't going to come out of that thing with anything like uniformity or regularity. It did make some HUGE runs, luckily they are on the underside of the car so I don't really care. So I just gave myself a white Christmas by priming the shell with the Rustoleum primer. I used an HVLP gun that I got from Harbor Freight. It was on sale for $29.99. The gun worked great with the primer thinned about 15% with Acetone. So far so good. Now that the car is one color its much easier to see the blemishes and the dents that I filled, but didn't sand correctly. I'm just going to leave it as is, because again, its a race car and I'd like to drive it before I hit retirement age. This paint job would not be passable for a street car. At least not my street car... Here are some pictures: Rt side: See the wavy body line? What to do with old HF catalogs: Windshield area: Shaved drip rails: Wavy B pillar: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 2, 2008 Author Share Posted January 2, 2008 Some more progress to report today. I explained to my wife how I couldn't get the rear quarter body line straight and she came up with a pretty damn good idea. She suggested I use tape to mark the line and then sand up to the tape. I had to remove most of the primer for that quarter to fix the body line. I took her suggestion and it worked really well. Then I sprayed primer again, and paint. The first coat of paint I thinned 80/20 with Acetone, and this was not thin enough. Not knowing WTF I am doing, I went ahead and sprayed the car, but the paint was really rough. I went back and wetsanded most of the paint off and cleaned off the surface, but I had a lot of dust around. Like an idiot I used my air gun and blew off the surface and then repainted with a 60/40 mix of paint and Acetone. Apparently blowing off the surface with compressed air is a bad idea because my next layer of paint had quite a few fisheyes. Much wetsanding later (just about took the whole coat of paint back off, I talked to a friend who has done some paint work before and he suggested I clean the surface before I shot the next coat. I didn't have any of the special solvent that he uses, so after the wetsanding was done I just wiped down the surface with Acetone and then sprayed the coat shown in the pictures here. This coat which was 60/40 as well layed down really flat. There is some dust in it since I didn't bother to make a booth, but it will come out with some wetsanding fairly easily. This layer looks REALLY good. I'd say that the part of the car that is currently painted looks a hell of a lot better than the old paint job that was on it. Granted, I got severely butt raped on the last paint job and the paint was cracking under the clear coat where the clear wasn't flaking off, there were runs in it, etc. But this really does look presentable. After rolling the interior, I'm glad I sprayed the exterior. Now that I know which is my ass and which is the hole in the ground, I'm confident that I can do the rest of the car with a minimum of drama and do-overs. Here are a couple pictures: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeatrpi Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Is it possible you accidentally had some oil in the air lines or blow gun when you dusted off the surface? And, does acetone leave a residue? I know lacquer thinner does, and therefore you shouldn't wipe the surface with it. Use a wax and grease remover, a 50/50 mix of rubbing alcohol and water, or aerosol glass cleaner followed by a tack cloth. I know that PPG MP170 epoxy primer is incompatible with rustoleum, when the epoxy is applied over rustoleum. I cannot tell you if the reverse is true. I know you're not using epoxy, but maybe someone who searches will find this info helpful. Oh, and to the etching primer guy - not to start a holy war but epoxy is generally accepted as superior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Some more progress to report today. I explained to my wife how I couldn't get the rear quarter body line straight and she came up with a pretty damn good idea. She suggested I use tape to mark the line and then sand up to the tape. She's a thinker. THAT is the correct way of doing it! She came up with that on her own? She must have been reading a paint & body book when you're out I'm impressed. I had to look it up... Davy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 3, 2008 Author Share Posted January 3, 2008 Is it possible you accidentally had some oil in the air lines or blow gun when you dusted off the surface? And, does acetone leave a residue? I know lacquer thinner does, and therefore you shouldn't wipe the surface with it. Use a wax and grease remover, a 50/50 mix of rubbing alcohol and water, or aerosol glass cleaner followed by a tack cloth. I don't know if it was water or oil in the air line, or if I just didn't get it clean enough or what. I don't think Acetone leaves a residue, but even if it does, it's what I thinned the paint with, so I don't think it would be a problem. I had read about wax and grease removers and tack cloth but I totally brain farted when I was actually doing the work. Now that it's come out this good, I think I'll stick with this system so I don't have to buy more supplies for my cheap ass paint job. She's a thinker. THAT is the correct way of doing it! She came up with that on her own? She must have been reading a paint & body book when you're out Daughter of a contractor and smart too. Pretty good combo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMWHYR0HEN Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 The paint looks great Jon. I'm sure after you wet sand, buff, and wax it, youl get the look you were looking for, maybe even more! Oh and great choice in color. It really does hide alot of imperfections, not that you did bad work or anything, but makes sence because you weren't going for that show quality finish. At least that's why I chose white. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Oh, and to the etching primer guy - not to start a holy war but epoxy is generally accepted as superior. I have read the same thing. Actually the quote was etching primer just isn't needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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