Bob_H Posted March 18, 2008 Author Share Posted March 18, 2008 ...that seems like the best solution for all types of lateral acceleration, does that seem right to you? Also that way i can keep the stock windage trays and then that would solve all problems with the dropping oil pressure I don't think its the end all solution. It is a good solution - hence why I chose it, but there are better options out there - dry sumping being one of the best, and most expensive. The windage trays aren't going to stop dropping oil pressure - they are only going to help from getting air in the oil - i.e. it gives the oil time to settle down before it gets in the sump, allowing the air to seperate from the oil - they are only one part of the solution. In the end, what you are talking about will help, but not eleminate the problem - nothing really will. But if your not tracking your car really hard - you likely won't have any issue at all. -Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattyice Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 I don't think its the end all solution. It is a good solution - hence why I chose it, but there are better options out there - dry sumping being one of the best, and most expensive. The windage trays aren't going to stop dropping oil pressure - they are only going to help from getting air in the oil - i.e. it gives the oil time to settle down before it gets in the sump, allowing the air to seperate from the oil - they are only one part of the solution. In the end, what you are talking about will help, but not eleminate the problem - nothing really will. But if your not tracking your car really hard - you likely won't have any issue at all. -Bob i would go dry sump if it wasnt so expensive but, i think the next best solution for me personally is what i stated, i will be tracking my car pretty hard in the redline time attack circuit next year so i will have to look into another baffle plate to help with oil flow to the pick up tube Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datsun dave Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Bob here are some pictures of my Thargard sump with modifications have added baffles and trap doors (still have to build the doors up) and have made the oil pick up pipe to fit the new sump design and have added a brace that bolts to the front windage tray, we only used the original new pick up end and the block mount and made the rest up. In the first picture you can see the pen marking the centre of the sump the baffles were then made to fit around this i did make up a template design first to see that it all fitted OK before we welded it up. The oil pick up pipe has 1/2" clearance from the bottom of the pan and in the last picture you can see where it fits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
synthtk Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Good to see someone else using the stock flange. My only concern with your design is under braking - that is a very long sump front-rear and under braking you can see lots of fluid movement away from your pickup under even moderate braking. I'd seriously look at that trap door and do what you can to ensure minimal to no oil will flow forward under braking. Maybe a rubber edge etc... You just don't see long fore-aft design pans for that reason. Just something to consider.BTW, nice drain baffle design. -Bob This is the exact problem I am currently having with my pan. I did a pan similar to Joel's with a single trap door, top drain backs and a rear external pickup. Oil pressure is great until I do a stop on a decline or a very hard stop on level surface, then it drops pretty hard, at first it would go near 0, but I have done some further modifications (changed pickup style and now 3/8th off the bottom and added a upper plate with fewer drain backs) which has helped but it still drops to 1 bar of pressure where normal idle is at 2 bar. In hindsight during the last modification I should have also sealed the gaps around the trap door to further help reduce the oil from flowing towards the front of the pan, but I still don't think this would solve my issue completely. Such a frustrating issue, at this point I kind of want to just gut the pan and start over, but I feel if I do that I should switch back to internal pickup... which then leads to wanting to go a new oil pump if I am going to go through the work pulling off the current N1 pump. Modified top plate, with fewer drains back and a lip overhanging the trap door Original top plate, way too many gaps and holes. Modified Pickup, still external Original pickup Bob here are some pictures of my Thargard sump with modifications have added baffles and trap doors (still have to build the doors up) and have made the oil pick up pipe to fit the new sump design and have added a brace that bolts to the front windage tray, we only used the original new pick up end and the block mount and made the rest up. In the first picture you can see the pen marking the centre of the sump the baffles were then made to fit around this i did make up a template design first to see that it all fitted OK before we welded it up. The oil pick up pipe has 1/2" clearance from the bottom of the pan and in the last picture you can see where it fits. Great start on that pan! This is the exact kind of design I want to do when I redo my pan. You may want to think about moving the trap door up a bit instead of right off the bottom to stop oil from going under the door. My current door is not sealed perfect along the bottom (to avoid it binding) nor the vertical surface between where the door rests and the side of the pan and its amazing how much oil leaks past on those small gaps. What are you planning to do for the top plate? how many drain backs are you planning to use and how large of an opening for the pickup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_H Posted March 21, 2008 Author Share Posted March 21, 2008 The oil pick up pipe has 1/2" clearance from the bottom of the pan and in the last picture you can see where it fits. Just make sure that the 1/2" clearance is from the actual pipe pickup point and not from the screen - as that has no effect on the pickup suction. Your design is exactly what I was going to do on my oil pan before I changed designs - however I was going to make the "diamond" smaller to keep the volume reasonable as with a big area, under braking it can still uncover the pickup. Intersting to see synthtk's pan has the loss of pressure under breaking issue. A big part of any design is the top plate - that can help direct oil into the pickup area vice dumping it into the areas outside of the pickup areas. There are good discussions on the V8 rX-7 forum where a new baffle plate was designed. -Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datsun dave Posted March 22, 2008 Share Posted March 22, 2008 Just make sure that the 1/2" clearance is from the actual pipe pickup point and not from the screen - as that has no effect on the pickup suction. -Bob Yes its 1/2" from the pickup point and not the screen. The diamond shape size was made so that when the trap doors open they did not hit the pickup pipe if the diamond shape was smaller then they would. Also remember that when both front or rear doors open if they are spaced too close together then they will catch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_H Posted March 23, 2008 Author Share Posted March 23, 2008 Something to consider on door design - the doors don't need to open all the way - I'd say up to about 30-40 degrees max. If you look at many aftermarket designs - they have travel limiters for the doors anyways which limit it to about 20-30 degrees total opening. I don't know if you incorperated that into your design or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datsun dave Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 Something to consider on door design - the doors don't need to open all the way - I'd say up to about 30-40 degrees max. If you look at many aftermarket designs - they have travel limiters for the doors anyways which limit it to about 20-30 degrees total opening. I don't know if you incorperated that into your design or not. Yes have built in travel limiter into the flaps, have taken out the original pin and replaced with metal rod that is slightly thinner, then at both ends it is turned in at a angle so it only open part way about 35 degrees the thinner rod also allows less friction between the two hindges the photos are the mock up and uses garden wire to see if it all worked OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 I'm about to embark on the RB pan odyssey for a customer. Did any of you guys finish yours and are happy with the results? FYI... I might make a production run of 5 or 10 or so if the cost works out unless there is a solution already made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datsun dave Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 I'm about to embark on the RB pan odyssey for a customer. Did any of you guys finish yours and are happy with the results? quote] Sump all finished engine is beening build up will let you all know results when its up and running. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB26powered74zcar Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 I'm about to embark on the RB pan odyssey for a customer. Did any of you guys finish yours and are happy with the results? FYI... I might make a production run of 5 or 10 or so if the cost works out unless there is a solution already made. John, any further work on this project? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 The pan and pickup are built and in the car. I'm waiting for the startup and for the car to be run for a while before I decided whether I'm building and selling the pan. Filling it with water it looks like its will hold 7 to 8 quarts but i need to check what the dipstick shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datsun dave Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 The pan and pickup are built and in the car. I'm waiting for the startup and for the car to be run for a while before I decided whether I'm building and selling the pan. Filling it with water it looks like its will hold 7 to 8 quarts but i need to check what the dipstick shows. Hi John any pictures of the pan/pick up before you fitted it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I uploaded some into one of my albums here: http://album.hybridz.org/showgallery.php?cat=942&ppuser=7945 Trap doors are Viton flaps similar to what BMW does on their motorsports pans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datsun dave Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 I uploaded some into one of my albums here: http://album.hybridz.org/showgallery.php?cat=942&ppuser=7945 Trap doors are Viton flaps similar to what BMW does on their motorsports pans. Great design work john can you tell me more about the Viton flaps please & what they are made from. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 1/8" thick Viton rubber. Oil and fuel resistant and good to 300+ degrees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EF Ian Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I'm having oil pickup problems with my RB when on track, current trap door setup is fine for acceleration and braking but sucks for cornering. So I plan to add another box around the pickup. Metal hinges or rubber flaps? Diamond or square? In my head square with the side of the sump works best but I see more at 45 degrees to the side (diamond shape if you will) so I assume this is bettter but I can't work out why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Just make sure that the oil in the head drains down efficiently eg external drains, electric scavenge pump in the head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_H Posted December 3, 2015 Author Share Posted December 3, 2015 I had to look back through your old build thread - you have a very big sump area so not very suprising. To answer your #1 question, diamond is what I would do - nearly every good aftermarket pan I looked at had it setup that way. For the "why", my best thoughts as a long ago mechanical engineer would be that rarely are the forces purely side to side - they often have a component of accel or decel - so some of that fluid will move forward or aft as well as to the side. The diamond better handles that situation vs a square parallel to the sides of the sump. In pure fore/aft acceleration/decelaration - the square and diamond should perform the same. Your problem is in turns at the track - so you have slight accel with side loading - so the fluid/oil is trying to go to the side and back of the sump. (or if braking/slowing, to the side/front). That is my best guess - but that is not my area of expertise. As you observed, I just saw many competition pans built that way, so I used my logic above, and went with the diamond since I couldn't run calcuations either way. Second - I personally wouldn't worry about the drain at the back of the head - read back on post 14 for some more background info on why I would say that. That is Chiefrd who used to post here among other places and still builds very high end/high power RB motors,(and SRs, etc..) over in Japan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EF Ian Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 I think I'll try to to for a diamond shape box with two rubber flaps per side and another straight baffle plate behind that with at least 4 of the rubber flaps. Not all that happy with my sump so I'm considering getting a new one made to my design. There a guy in Australia who's sumps look good. http://www.cjfab.com.au/?page_id=225 Thinking about one of those but with a larger tray and my design of baffling. It has a cnc flange so at least it should be level unlike mine which would make sealing it much easier. I'll upload some photos of the above sump and my current one and see who think it better to modify mine or start with a new one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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