Derek Posted March 24, 2009 Author Share Posted March 24, 2009 Before I go for a reservoir I'd like to find out if that is excessive pulsing. Anybody........ Bueller..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 This pulsing is common in ITB's because you have such a strong vacuum signal. Usually it's more of an issue when it's in a manifold runner, and not when it's vacuum-logged. Use a small engine fuel filter, one for a Briggs and Stratton. The paper element and small capacitance of the filter housing (these things are about the size of a nickel or a quarter, and looks like a vacuum chack valve that nissan used) will smooth it out. There is talk waaaay back during the original builds of the MS on how to combat that pulsing. Some use a carburettor jet, but the little filter works well and many people have used it. The pulsations will make the fuel jump around, and you should work to get it slightly smoother than what it is so the computer is not correcting for such a big consistent map jump. You DO NOT want a 'big' reservoir! You want something that allows the MAP to be read relatively close to the actual manifold pressure. The filter or a small orifice in the MAP sensing line (or simply using a longer line with a couple of loops to add volume) can dampen it out. But like I said, one of those small, plastic, gravity feed fuel filters for a Briggs and Stratton or even a weed whacker will work wonders on that pulsing. Keeps intake backfire smudge out of the MAP sensor, as well as any condensation that may accumulate as well. What injectors did you end up using sizewise again? I see you ran 6200 rpms, and the PW max was 73%, that seems pretty close on sizing, not much room for any breathing improvements and you will be out of injector! And your engine is STOCK now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Use a small engine fuel filter, one for a Briggs and Stratton. The paper element and small capacitance of the filter housing (these things are about the size of a nickel or a quarter, and looks like a vacuum chack valve that nissan used) will smooth it out. There is talk waaaay back during the original builds of the MS on how to combat that pulsing. Some use a carburettor jet, but the little filter works well and many people have used it. Ron Tyler clued me into using a welding tip for the same purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted March 24, 2009 Author Share Posted March 24, 2009 This pulsing is common in ITB's because you have such a strong vacuum signal. Usually it's more of an issue when it's in a manifold runner, and not when it's vacuum-logged. Use a small engine fuel filter, one for a Briggs and Stratton. The paper element and small capacitance of the filter housing (these things are about the size of a nickel or a quarter, and looks like a vacuum chack valve that nissan used) will smooth it out. There is talk waaaay back during the original builds of the MS on how to combat that pulsing. Some use a carburettor jet, but the little filter works well and many people have used it. The pulsations will make the fuel jump around, and you should work to get it slightly smoother than what it is so the computer is not correcting for such a big consistent map jump. You DO NOT want a 'big' reservoir! You want something that allows the MAP to be read relatively close to the actual manifold pressure. The filter or a small orifice in the MAP sensing line (or simply using a longer line with a couple of loops to add volume) can dampen it out. But like I said, one of those small, plastic, gravity feed fuel filters for a Briggs and Stratton or even a weed whacker will work wonders on that pulsing. Keeps intake backfire smudge out of the MAP sensor, as well as any condensation that may accumulate as well. What injectors did you end up using sizewise again? I see you ran 6200 rpms, and the PW max was 73%, that seems pretty close on sizing, not much room for any breathing improvements and you will be out of injector! And your engine is STOCK now! Hi Tony Unfortunately that pulse is with a small Kohler fuel filter in line. I have it right at the Megasquirt unit. I'm not sure if it matters or not. Should it be closer to the manifold? I think I have an old multi chamber bong I built in the early 80's that might do the trick though. Boy that bad boy smoothed out the pulses! I'm using 24LB injectors. I used the "required fuel calculator" in Megatune to get the fuel amount. I'm not sure if that play's into duty cycle or not as I'm a Megaidiot when It comes to Megasquirt. But I'm improving. Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Usually the pulsation damper is closer to the source of the pulsation, and then put the orifice on the outlet to the MS like KTM mentioned. A welding tip will work, that's a good one. Beats using number drills on 1/4" brass rods chucked in a lathe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accurate Injection Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 (edited) We are working on this as well with the NEW Electronics! We are working on "Window" Based Vacuum Sampling, Basically sampling only 1 runner with a TMAP at only a small portion of the 720 degree engine Cycle. TMAP is totally ignored except for this Window in time. Not sure if the Mega Squirt offers this or if some of you could write the Code to make it work! May be a solution for you, the jury is still out on our testing at the moment! Quote: Hi Phar Well now that you mention it I've been wondering if I saw the two inner horns off would they work on a L20? Those 510 guys have a lot more money than we do! Derek I would not count on the above statement being true! Kevin Edited March 25, 2009 by Accurate Injection 510 owners Will NOT BUY ♥♥♥♥ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xnke Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Well, pour a second set of castings, and lop off the #1 and #6 cylinders and find out! might need 1+2 and 5+6, but it's just aluminum... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 Usually the pulsation damper is closer to the source of the pulsation, and then put the orifice on the outlet to the MS like KTM mentioned. A welding tip will work, that's a good one. Beats using number drills on 1/4" brass rods chucked in a lathe... Alright then. I'll move the filter closer to the source and I certainly have plenty of mig tips around as a reducer so I'll give it a try. We are working on this as well with the NEW Electronics! We are working on "Window" Based Vacuum Sampling, Basically sampling only 1 runner with a TMAP at only a small portion of the 720 degree engine Cycle. TMAP is totally ignored except for this Window in time. Not sure if the Mega Squirt offers this or if some of you could write the Code to make it work! May be a solution for you, the jury is still out on our testing at the moment! That sounds pretty cool. I don't think there will be any code written by me though. Well, pour a second set of castings, and lop off the #1 and #6 cylinders and find out! might need 1+2 and 5+6, but it's just aluminum... Well at some point that may happen! Well I just got back from a 2 hour round trip to Tampa and back and the car never missed a beat. Averaged about 75mph the whole time. My new cruise control worked like a champ. I didn't check the mileage but judging by the usage on the gas gauge I got a lot better MPG. The only problem I'm having is with the IAC. It seems to get confused as to which direction it needs to go when I fire it up. I've been dealing with it since the beginning and I guess it's about time I got it figured out. Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
74Adam Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Derek, are you using that cruise control made by audiovox? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted March 26, 2009 Author Share Posted March 26, 2009 Derek, are you using that cruise control made by audiovox? No I'm using a Rostra unit. http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?p=1004361#post1004361 Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted March 29, 2009 Author Share Posted March 29, 2009 Here's what I have. 1/2" hose running from the balance tube to the vacuum log. I have a T fitting in the 1/2" line with the master vac hose and the MAP hose attached. when the IAC is closed all is well with the world. But when the valve opens it reduces the vacuum at the MAP sensor and makes the car run way richer. I need to pull the map signal from another spot. Or I need to start investigating Alpha N. Any ideas on this. Thanks Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted March 30, 2009 Author Share Posted March 30, 2009 I moved the map sensor over to one of the runners. Underneath of course. WOW! Now we're getting somewhere. Not only does my IAC operate as it should but the MAP signal is a lot steadier. It's also operating in a wider range of the table. Now yet another re-tune. I ordered a decent microphone from amazon so I should have some in-car video's to post soon. I shot a few already but the built in microphone just doesn't cut it. Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pharaohabq Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I know this is a little off from our current topic in this thread, though it's still the right thread... But... Derek, what do you think of making instead of triplets, or dual horns, just making single horns that have mounting holes predrilled, or dempled for different intake bolt patterns. this way you could sell, 4 for 4 cyl, 6 for 6 cyl, or 12 if someone has an old jag engine. hmm I guess dual horns work just as well, but singularly they have a better chance of fitting multiple engines, or at least being made to fit... linkages may be difficult though, unless you can come up with n easy standard configuration for them. Separately, have you looks down inside to see how the plates and that goo stuff are holding up? all the screws staying tight? Interresting lessons learned on this about the MS tuning.. Keeping the Map away from the IAC, you wouldn't think was a big deal, but apparently there's enough vaccuum variance at that point to really make a difference. Phar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrariferg Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Glad to hear you got that worked out. Good stuff to know since I'm trying to MS my own car. Can't get the dang thing to register on the computer though. Can't wait for better videos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted March 31, 2009 Author Share Posted March 31, 2009 I know this is a little off from our current topic in this thread, though it's still the right thread... But... Derek, what do you think of making instead of triplets, or dual horns, just making single horns that have mounting holes predrilled, or dempled for different intake bolt patterns. this way you could sell, 4 for 4 cyl, 6 for 6 cyl, or 12 if someone has an old jag engine. hmm I guess dual horns work just as well, but singularly they have a better chance of fitting multiple engines, or at least being made to fit... linkages may be difficult though, unless you can come up with n easy standard configuration for them. You just keep thinkin' Butch (Phar). That's what you're good at. I did give that some thought but hadn't gone any further. The tricky part would be the angles (and probably a host of other things I haven't thought of) Separately, have you looks down inside to see how the plates and that goo stuff are holding up? all the screws staying tight? Interresting lessons learned on this about the MS tuning.. Keeping the Map away from the IAC, you wouldn't think was a big deal, but apparently there's enough vaccuum variance at that point to really make a difference. Phar I periodically pull the air cleaners and check things out. Everything looks AOK. The goo still looks exactly the same. I put the screws in with red loc tight so they shouldn't be a problem. I really thought I was going to have to tear it apart so I didn't stake the screws. I'm at mile 750 or so. I'll probably pull them around 1500 -2000 and check everything out. If all is well I'll stake the screws and call it a day. I was really surprised about the MAP as well. That's why it took me so long to move it over to the manifold. I just didn't think it would matter.WRONG. Glad to hear you got that worked out. Good stuff to know since I'm trying to MS my own car. Can't get the dang thing to register on the computer though. Can't wait for better videos. Man the learning curve for me was steep. At the suggestion of Daniel (Zmanco) I switched over to the latest beta extra code. I'm glad I did. My IAC is finally working as it should. I'm actuall tuning the closed loop idle settings today. The 16x16 table helps the tune as well. The funny thing is though, the car has driven better than the SUs regardless of what tune I had! I still can't believe how drivable these things are. I was lugging through my neighborhood in third gear last night and it just was smooth as silk! No bucking, farting or sneezing. The car ran pretty good too. Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noddle Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Derek, What code are you using that has 16x16 cells ? Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted April 1, 2009 Author Share Posted April 1, 2009 Derek, What code are you using that has 16x16 cells ? Nigel Hi Nigel I'm running MS2/Extra. I'm running the 2.1 beta. It's almost ready for lockdown so it's stable. I upgraded mainly for the IAC control but it seems to run better as well. Only the VE table is 16x16. Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 The runner is an interesting swap. That works different than I would have thought, but my experience is in taking stuff from the Manifold runner. The MAP going screwy with the IAC is a good bit of information. It makes sense in retrospect. This is why I don't like IAC's. There really is no reason for them, but it does make the A/C easier than a fabricated Pulloff. Though, to play the Devil, no 'works rally car' would EVER have an IAC...it would have a fabricated zinc-coated bracket and a pneumatic pull-off! muahahahaha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accurate Injection Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Not to steal the Thread, but hopefully to help! This may interest some in the future! Derek you may want to look at Extrudabody Electronic's as well in the future! There's no Vacum Log, vacuum sampling is done on the last runner of a 4 or 6 cylinder, uses a TMAP sensor mounted directly in #4 Runner. This engine only has a 60-2 Crank Trigger, no CAM SENSOR! Wideband self tune control is working excellent on the itb's, as is the 4th runner MAP sampling – shows idle MAP as 30 kPa, exactly the same as with a manifold! Also, it’s synchronizing with the engine for sequential injection, and – SEQUENTIAL IGNITION (we made a small box that splits the signals, and as long as the dwell doesn’t exceed 50%, it can double the number of outputs, and fire 4 or 6 coils sequentially)! With ITBs, the VE is a little different though, at the medium loads - probably from the runner length changes, and the hack-job adapter that we made for the ITB's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted April 1, 2009 Author Share Posted April 1, 2009 Though, to play the Devil, no 'works rally car' would EVER have an IAC...it would have a fabricated zinc-coated bracket and a pneumatic pull-off! muahahahaha! Or Air conditioning, power windows, central locking, cruise control or an on-board computer. It's called "artistic license" The IAC symbolizes modern mans desire for convenience yet struggling with the dichotomy of the myth of simpler times. Or something like that. Not to steal the Thread, but hopefully to help! This may interest some in the future! Derek you may want to look at Extrudabody Electronic's as well in the future! There's no Vacum Log, vacuum sampling is done on the last runner of a 4 or 6 cylinder, uses a TMAP sensor mounted directly in #4 Runner. This engine only has a 60-2 Crank Trigger, no CAM SENSOR! Wideband self tune control is working excellent on the itb's, as is the 4th runner MAP sampling – shows idle MAP as 30 kPa, exactly the same as with a manifold! Also, it’s synchronizing with the engine for sequential injection, and – SEQUENTIAL IGNITION (we made a small box that splits the signals, and as long as the dwell doesn’t exceed 50%, it can double the number of outputs, and fire 4 or 6 coils sequentially)! With ITBs, the VE is a little different though, at the medium loads - probably from the runner length changes, and the hack-job adapter that we made for the ITB's. You low down dirty thread stealer!!! You couldn't have come out with this a few months ago? Derek How'd the goop work out for ya? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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