woldson Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 My engine is pretty fresh, 87k. Give them to me;) Can't believe you running without a hitch. Not to bring murphy down on you but, there were soooo many things that could of caused a failure, that makes it an amazing success!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pharaohabq Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Hey Derek, Yeah, glad to hear it's still running well after 500 miles. I was worried about the heat shield, but I guess you got that all worked out. You forgot Req #4, You're happy with it. 120HP on a tired engine is pretty good, I know mines currently a lot lower than that. When I can get mine started it smokes up the place a bit. that's the main reason I'm going for a swap rather than rebuild. If I could afford your horns I'd be all over rebuilding my L28. But I'd wager I'm poorer than you these days. I'm certainly keeping you in mind though if it turns out I need anything fabricated. Once I pull my engine, I might have it sold, but if not I'll have a cheap candidate for you for rebuild. One thought I had on your production versions of the manifolds. you might look at some other I6's like the AMC 232/258 and the GM 4.0 Jeep engines among others like early chevys or fords and get their bolt patterns/spacing and see how possible it would be to swap these to other engines. that way you'd expand your base and maybe sell a few more. Perhaps even make it a 4pc set separating cyl 1 and 6 for width. I dunno, without measuring, I guess that might be difficult. Phar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted March 19, 2009 Author Share Posted March 19, 2009 WOW Thanks for the support. And believe me I'm much more than happy with this setup. I guess I was looking for higher numbers so that I could get enough interest to go for version 2.0. Originally I had no intention of selling these. But now that I have probably $20,000 in time (seriously) and materials in this thing I'd like to pursue actually selling a few. Not to mention the ego boost it would give me! Mea Culpa time. I had an itch in the back of my head since I left the dyno and I just used my data logs to scratch it. I FORGOT TO TURN THE A/C OFF!!! I was so nervous and jerky as I was a dyno virgin that I'm sure I left it on. When i have the air on the data logs show 12.5 or so voltage. With the air off it reads 13.5 or so. Both data logs on the dyno pulls show in the 12.5 range. As the great philosopher Homer (simpson) said.... DOH! So whats that like 40 or 50 HP? Seriously, it's a SD508 so it's probably good for 4 or 5. Derek, Given the condition of your motor, you'll make about the same power with your custom TBs vs. the stock SUs given the same AFR at the peak power RPM point. The RPM where it makes the most power might be slightly different between the two setups, but the power will be approximately the same. You need to build yourself a new motor to really take advantage of your TBs (hint, hint...). I suspect that your TB setup would be comparable to a set of Mikunis or Webers as for as power potential. A budget upgrade would be some flat top ITM pistons, a fresh valve job and a medium cam. If your cylinders are in good shape, you shouldn't need to bore the block. This would yield a 10:1 CR, and at least 180WHP. Time to upgrade! Pete Must....Resist....Increasing.....Need....For speed!!! Actually I was looking at the engine calculator and slapping in a set of flat tops and a cam is going to be the cheapest solution to upping the HP. And I think that will put me right where I want to be. The car is great but I wish (boy we've heard this before) it had a little $$$$$$ more grunt. My engine is pretty fresh, 87k.Give them to me:wink: Well Pete made me that offer about a year ago so he's first in line!If I do the motor upgrade I may try and put them on a known engine that's been dyno'd Can't believe you running without a hitch.Not to bring murphy down on you but, there were soooo many things that could of caused a failure, that makes it an amazing success!! Nor can I. They have never come off the car since the first install. The only thing that has given me trouble was the TPS. Everything else has been tuning issues and minor hose changes. Hell I even slapped cruise control on it! Here's how I know it's making more power. I've got a whole new set of clunks and noises coming from the rear suspension! Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted March 19, 2009 Author Share Posted March 19, 2009 Hey Derek, Yeah, glad to hear it's still running well after 500 miles. I was worried about the heat shield, but I guess you got that all worked out. You forgot Req #4, You're happy with it. 120HP on a tired engine is pretty good, I know mines currently a lot lower than that. When I can get mine started it smokes up the place a bit. that's the main reason I'm going for a swap rather than rebuild. If I could afford your horns I'd be all over rebuilding my L28. But I'd wager I'm poorer than you these days. I'm certainly keeping you in mind though if it turns out I need anything fabricated. Once I pull my engine, I might have it sold, but if not I'll have a cheap candidate for you for rebuild. One thought I had on your production versions of the manifolds. you might look at some other I6's like the AMC 232/258 and the GM 4.0 Jeep engines among others like early chevys or fords and get their bolt patterns/spacing and see how possible it would be to swap these to other engines. that way you'd expand your base and maybe sell a few more. Perhaps even make it a 4pc set separating cyl 1 and 6 for width. I dunno, without measuring, I guess that might be difficult. Phar Hi Phar Well now that you mention it I've been wondering if I saw the two inner horns off would they work on a L20? Those 510 guys have a lot more money than we do! Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woldson Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 All things work together. If you went with flat tops, cam and maby exhaust, put the old intake on, then the new, at the dyno. Money permitting. Getting rid of that fan will surprise you in sound as well as throttle response. Any one thing can help, but really inproving the entire top end of the air pump (engine) can produce significant results! The potential of the horns is still sitting there, just needs to be tapped!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted March 20, 2009 Author Share Posted March 20, 2009 All things work together.If you went with flat tops, cam and maby exhaust, put the old intake on, then the new, at the dyno. Money permitting. Getting rid of that fan will surprise you in sound as well as throttle response. Any one thing can help, but really inproving the entire top end of the air pump (engine) can produce significant results! The potential of the horns is still sitting there, just needs to be tapped!!! Fan...fan...fan That's all you guys ever talk about! Electric fan is absolutely on my list as is probably head work, pistons and a cam. But the key phrase was "money permitting". Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted March 20, 2009 Author Share Posted March 20, 2009 Well I had a break in my "limited" action today so I decided to take a stab at redoing my linkage. When I did the conversion I ended up using a cable. I really wanted to use rods and continue them from the existing bell crank to the manifold but time issues forced me to use the cable. The cable sucked. It was like a leg press getting it off idle and then it was normal the rest of the way. It was really hard to drive that way. Here's what I ended up with. Smooth as buttah! What a difference. I ran out of hex stock so I'm temporarily using round. The cable on the factory bell crank goes to the cruise control. The bracket on the firewall bolts into the two holes from the pivot on the carbs. I know I should be driving it from the center linkage instead of #6 and I still might when I redo the rods but I'm going to run it like this for while and see how it goes. Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-ya Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Being in Florida, and having AC, I would keep the stock fan and shroud. It will push more air than any single electric fan. You will need to run dual electric fans to equal what a single engine driven fan can do. And then you will be drawing a lot off the electrical system causing more of a load on the alternator, and therefore the engine. You don't get something for nothing. Just make sure your fan clutch is working properly. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted March 20, 2009 Author Share Posted March 20, 2009 Being in Florida, and having AC, I would keep the stock fan and shroud. It will push more air than any single electric fan. You will need to run dual electric fans to equal what a single engine driven fan can do. And then you will be drawing a lot off the electrical system causing more of a load on the alternator, and therefore the engine. You don't get something for nothing. Just make sure your fan clutch is working properly. Pete Hi Pete I have a 12 or 13" pusher in front of the condenser that comes on with the compressor. Right now I'm not running a shroud. This is the same setup I ran last August and had zero overheating problems. If I run 2 smaller fans the drivers side would blow air across the manifold. This may be advantageous in the summer at an idle. Or not.... Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-ya Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Put the shroud back on, it makes a huge difference. I've taken an old nasty shroud, cleaned it up, and painted it and it looked great. I did this on my wife's 280Z as she NEEDS AC! Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted March 20, 2009 Author Share Posted March 20, 2009 Put the shroud back on, it makes a huge difference. I've taken an old nasty shroud, cleaned it up, and painted it and it looked great. I did this on my wife's 280Z as she NEEDS AC! Pete Me no usey shroud because me no havey shroud! Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8ZRACER260Z Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 I Got a shroud just ask for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garvice Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Ok, Who would be interested in putting in a little $$ to help this project along? (I know how it feels. I always seem to have the time and not the money, or the money and not the time). I am thinking of throwing in a 50 (although at todays exchange rate that comes to about 35) to help with getting derek some more dyno time. I would like to see a dyno run with stock manifold and new manifold. Not sure how this would be accomplished though as it isn't a five minute swap. You guys can think of it like the wind tunnel testing $ pledges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woldson Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Fine;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted March 21, 2009 Author Share Posted March 21, 2009 Ok,Who would be interested in putting in a little $$ to help this project along? (I know how it feels. I always seem to have the time and not the money, or the money and not the time). I am thinking of throwing in a 50 (although at todays exchange rate that comes to about 35) to help with getting derek some more dyno time. I would like to see a dyno run with stock manifold and new manifold. Not sure how this would be accomplished though as it isn't a five minute swap. You guys can think of it like the wind tunnel testing $ pledges. Yea Baby now that's what I'm talkin about!!! My own stimulus plan. I think we'd be better off spending the money on "Teach Derek how Megasquirt really works" class. I just spent the morning redoing my VE table. I had everything so screwed up I'm surprised it ran as well as it did. The EGO control was really getting a workout. I was trying to fix VE problems with acceleration enrichment's as well. I'm not smart I'm determined. Rick I believe I'll take you up on that shroud offer. Thanks. Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zmanco Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Derek, just a suggestion on tuning MS, turn off AE, Over-run fuel cut, MAT correction, etc when you do your datalogging. Even though Megalogviewer ignores records where those are active, you'll see artifacts show up on the edges of those settings, especially since MLV only works with a single fixed delay for the O2 sensor. In other words, it isn't always ingnoring the records that it needs to ignore. If you turn those off and do a variety of driving (get data all over the map), you'll be pleasantly surprised with how well MLV will tune it. Once you're happy, then turn all the other gizmos back on. You'll find that you need very little AE too. BTW, if you want to really fine tune, try using MLV in 2 passes. Here's a thread where we're discussing that with the developer: http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=26021&sid=552c2dcfce598cd233369af0d77bfd92&p=212159#p212159 My suggestion is at the bottom of the first page. Sorry for the thread hijack, but hope this was helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pharaohabq Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 New linkage looks good. Pretty cool doing it w/ no cable. I guess that's one more bug worked out. Yah, I guess a longer hex tube to the middle would work better, but I think what you've got is fine, especially if there's no slop in the linkage. I could probably send you $20 via paypal, if you wanted to do more testing. I ain't got much, but this is an awesome project. Phar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted March 23, 2009 Author Share Posted March 23, 2009 Derek, just a suggestion on tuning MS, turn off AE, Over-run fuel cut, MAT correction, etc when you do your datalogging. Even though Megalogviewer ignores records where those are active, you'll see artifacts show up on the edges of those settings, especially since MLV only works with a single fixed delay for the O2 sensor. In other words, it isn't always ingnoring the records that it needs to ignore. If you turn those off and do a variety of driving (get data all over the map), you'll be pleasantly surprised with how well MLV will tune it. Once you're happy, then turn all the other gizmos back on. You'll find that you need very little AE too. BTW, if you want to really fine tune, try using MLV in 2 passes. Here's a thread where we're discussing that with the developer: http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=26021&sid=552c2dcfce598cd233369af0d77bfd92&p=212159#p212159 My suggestion is at the bottom of the first page. Sorry for the thread hijack, but hope this was helpful. Hi Daniel. I was actually combing through your msq when you posted this. I'm getting a much better handle on everything. I'm finding that it likes to be around 13.8 or richer when I'm cruising around. Any leaner and it just feels a little erratic. I can see where turning off the gizmos is helping. As I got my VE closer the AE suddenly became way too rich. Making it run wide open is no problem. It's making it run while your lugging along in 3rd gear in traffic is the tough part! I went in and redid all my BINS to give me better resolution in the around town cruise areas. Here's a screen shot of me in 4th gear at 2600 RPM. The MAP has some pulsing in it. I'm not sure if this is normal or not. Also you can see the injectors and voltage pulse right along with it. It's running rich. I can see where this tuning thing becomes addicting. New linkage looks good. Pretty cool doing it w/ no cable. I guess that's one more bug worked out. Yah, I guess a longer hex tube to the middle would work better, but I think what you've got is fine, especially if there's no slop in the linkage. I could probably send you $20 via paypal, if you wanted to do more testing. I ain't got much, but this is an awesome project. Phar Thanks Phar. It is so much nicer to drive as well. Also if I go into production it's a simple bolt on affair. Thanks for the thought on the donation but I've got a couple of projects booked already that should put me right back in the green. Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xnke Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Try running a vacuum reservoir, a small can or something. That should help with the pulsations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pharaohabq Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Try running a vacuum reservoir, a small can or something. That should help with the pulsations. The Stock 280Z vaccuum reservoir should work. it's just a 1/4" hose you could reconnect. Phar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.