sticky280zx Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 alright guys i wanted to know the set up on norms 11-6-1 motor....im going all motor...and i have a 78 with a fairly stock motor and everything runs great. i went to the 1/8 mile track and not being able to launch (even with a burnout on street tires) i pulled a 9.9 second pass at 72mph spinning a little off the line, my friend in a honda hatch (gsr motor) on slicks went 8.9 @76 and on street tires. from a dig on the streets of mexico were pretty damn even from till 80+. i was pretty happy, but i want an all motor setup and got some 40 over flat top FORGED pistons....and was wondering what cam would be best (im looking at msa's ofcouse cause theyre only $600 a kit (cam,lifters, springs,etc) and wondered what grind you guys find best...im kinda looking at the stage 3 or 4. and im going to have a slight port and polish done to my head along with bigger valves and hardened seats (machine shop is determining size) but what could i safely get to with premium (93oct) cause im wanting 11-1,and ill be on megasquirt standalone also. bottom end will be balanced and rods shot peened. im really only looking for around 10-5-1 or 10-1 and maybe a small shot since the pistons are forged....just worried about detonation....but what should i expect out of the set up and any ideas on where to find bigger valves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sticky280zx Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 BUMP...anybody out there want to help or what? ive searched and read and read some more but n/a builds mostly cover strokers and i could care less for those high prices...plus high comp should be just as good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woldson Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Their is a a lot of information on high compression Zs. Plus do us a favor and improve your style of posting, including caps and sentence breaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vintage Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 If your wanting any real power out of your NA motor, I would look into doing more than alittle headwork. I suggest looking for some of Braaps or 1 fast Z's posts about L6 headwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sticky280zx Posted July 23, 2008 Author Share Posted July 23, 2008 If you read my post it is more than a little. or atleast i consider it that way... It will get a port and polish, bigger valves, valve job, new guides, ive got a friend that is going to make me a set of ITBs, and will have a pretty aggressive cam with matching springs,retainers,lash pads, and rocker arms....so im thinking thats pretty extensive...im not looking to get every last drop out of the motor...just alot more than 150hp, which is probably where it is at now. along with the motorwork since ive got forged pistons ill probably put a shot on it, 50,75, or 100. I'll just have to decide that after i get the motor put back together, get megasquirt on, and everything tuned before i decide to hook up a bottle to it. but im aiming for 300whp or so and think that i should be able to get above 200 with just the motor....shooting closer to 250....i mean if the stroked guys can get 300 on carbs there should be no reason with proper tuning that i cant get close with injection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xnke Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 heheh...300whp from a 3.1L L6 on carbs....You're funny, I think. Normally you'll get somewhere around 195-220hp from that motor, carbed. EFI might bump that up as high as 240hp. You can coax 200 crank horses from an L24 if you are really good and determined, but really, to make L6 power, you need to dump a lot of money in the cylinder head. Lots of posts around here on it, for NA L6 engines, stroked or not does not matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.INSANE Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 Headwork, Higher Compression Ratio It's been discussed alot I would like to say though if your looking for 250hp N/A I doubt this would be a very streetable motor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 efi doesn't work so well with big lopey cams (no vacuum for the manifold sensor). It takes some special tuning to get it to work. You will have better results with some carbs. And even better results with a turbo. 10:1 cr is easy to get. stock flat tops and a N42 or N47 head is all you need. Then get a msa stage 4 cam kit, 6 into 1 header, later model 5 spd, and a 3.90 or 4.11 gear. Get a good set of su's or dual webers and it should run high 13's on the motor and maybe high 12's with a 75hp shot of n02. Get some new tires and lighten up the car. You can get a cam a lot cheaper than 600.00. Send your old cam and rockers to deltacams for a regrind (110.00), get a set of 0.200 lash pads from courtesy nissan (36.00) and a set of HP valve springs and retainers (msa, 120.00??) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sticky280zx Posted July 24, 2008 Author Share Posted July 24, 2008 this is an l28 not a l24 and im pretty sure there are ppl out there with some ls1's with big cams that are injected that do just fine....and ill explain again since ppl are having issues reading....im pretty sure that robello makes 300 on alot of thier motors since they advertise it. i know i wont get that cause it wont be stroked hence why i wrote... "but im aiming for 300whp or so and think that i should be able to get above 200 with just the motor....shooting closer to 250" with 100 shot or so im aiming for 300+....obviously i could build a turbo motor but with a flat top set-up i would def have to go with a p-90 to try and keep the comp low enough (i dont like anything above 9-1 or 9-5-1 boosted) also if i dont like the n/a power....(pistons are forged, everything will be balanced, plan on shaving and porting the n42, and adding that big cam along with megasquirt...) and if i wasnt happy with the power i could swap the head for a p90 i have and thatll put the comp closer to around 9 to 9-5 and just change megasquirt settings, piece together a turbo,intercooler, and piping...injectors and pump and bam at 300+ for what 1500-2k and all id be out was the cam and misc stuff for 600 or less...not a bad trade imho? what do ya'll think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woldson Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Sounds like a plan. I did miss your point a bit. It would have been easier if you had broken your post up some to make for an easier read. Realistically figure your going to be around 200rwhp before your shot. With the flat tops if you have a few detonation problems when/if you turbo charge you could always go with some meth injection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 300+ crank horsepower L6s on carbs is "common" in the road racing world. For SCCA GT2 and Historic racing they are typically L24s making that kind of power. Also, FI has no problems with high overlap or long duration cams using MAF or MAP sensors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woldson Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Opps, thanks for the correction Jhonc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(goldfish) Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 300+ crank horsepower L6s on carbs is "common" in the road racing world. For SCCA GT2 and Historic racing they are typically L24s making that kind of power. Also, FI has no problems with high overlap or long duration cams using MAF or MAP sensors. Keep in mind that that is Crank HP. and requires excellent head work. But done right I've heard is streetable. Brainn510 had the most vocal reviews that I remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sticky280zx Posted July 25, 2008 Author Share Posted July 25, 2008 yea im glad i cleared it up enough...yea im only aiming for about 300 wheels with the shot (100 or 125). Like i said if that doesnt make me happy ill just turbo it....and yes i know from other builds flattops arent the best (as dished would be for the quench) but with the numbers id be shooting for/ am shooting for in a turbo build i will use meth cause i dont/wouldnt trust 400hp+ on many cars without it. its really all about the tuning, there was a guy here in dallas running a B18 gsr (10-1 comp honda motor) with the dohc head. and a turbo putting down 460+ hp & tq without meth...but it was heaaaavily tuned. and only run for a short time as he sold the motor and shell separate and started a new project. im really less concerned with numbers but more concerned with having my ass planted back in my seat...and being able to whoop up on a broader range of cars. I will go all motor first and see if i like it then probably end up selling the setup to my dad who wants to go n/a then ill just do my turbo build....thanks for the help/suggestions guys and you can keep them coming. again anyone have any ideas/companies that make bigger valves, and hardened seats etc. like robello or sunbelt would use? (you scca guys would know im thinking) because im trying to do this build for under 1k for the head parts...(right now the best is that msa NEW cam kit) im not a fan of regrinds but thats just because ive been told by many new billet is alot better way to go. any opinions/ places with good experience Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(goldfish) Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 y....and yes i know from other builds flattops arent the best (as dished would be for the quench)....... Other way around, the dish normally kills the quench abilities of the head. but with the numbers id be shooting for/ am shooting for in a turbo build i will use meth cause i dont/wouldnt trust 400hp+ on many cars without it. Done right there is no reason a L engine won't live at those levels without meth/water injection. Several members here do it. its really all about the tuning, there was a guy here in dallas running a B18 gsr (10-1 comp honda motor) with the dohc head. and a turbo putting down 460+ hp & tq without meth...but it was heaaaavily tuned. It's best not to makes these comparisons. The engine technology isn't even close, might as well be talking about the space shuttle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sticky280zx Posted July 25, 2008 Author Share Posted July 25, 2008 Done right there is no reason a L engine won't live at those levels without meth/water injection. Several members here do it. It's best not to makes these comparisons. lol seriously tho....ive seen many guys build the same motor with different outcomes....again gsr block sleeves are good for 400whp with a good tune but with a bad one they crack...too many variables Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 Before I say anything, this is ALL said in an effort to help you make sure you reach your goal. There is nothing like an all-motor L-powered Z in my book. alright guys i wanted to know the set up on norms 11-6-1 motor.... ...and im going to have a slight port and polish done to my head along with.... Norm's motor(s) are unique. I have read posts on zc.c by TonyD professing to have watched Norm match his pistons and balance his cc's thusly.. by grinding them against the sidewalk. Norm is THAT good working with the engine and massaging the power out. That is how you build an NA l-series: you know how. Well, it is how HE builds HIS anyhow, and THAT is the motor you are fixated upon. But enough about Norm; I wish I knew more about the details of his build myself and I do not blame you for envying it (if it lives up to all his hype about it, which I DO believe.. but I wouldn't be horrified to discover that belief in error.) Your first stumble is thus: If your wanting any real power out of your NA motor, I would look into doing more than alittle headwork. To which you replied: If you read my post it is more than a little. or atleast i consider it that way... It will get a port and polish, bigger valves, valve job, new guides, ...ITBs, and will have a pretty aggressive cam with matching springs,retainers,lash pads, and rocker arms....so im thinking thats pretty extensive...im not looking to get every last drop out of the motor...just alot more than 150hp, ........i should be able to get above 200 with just the motor....shooting closer to 250 It doesn't matter what "you consider it," valves, guides, a cam, springs, retainers, lash pads, and rocker arms aren't "massive headwork" they are elementary design bits of the engine. The "massive headwork" is contained in the shaping of the intake tract, from the marriage with the manifold through the port, past the valve guide, past the valve face, into the combustion chamber, around the shape of that combustion chamber (head side and piston side) and out past the exhaust valve face, guide, port, and into the header. For re-iteration: the "head work" necessary to see performance out of your L-gata is in the shape of the aluminum air tract and in the shape of the combustion chamber, both head side and piston side. With the 24s it potentially includes eyebrowing the block, but a 28 (especially with 40 over bore) thats not an issue. More than just a port and polish. Keep in mind that that is Crank HP. and requires excellent head work. But done right I've heard is streetable. Brainn510 had the most vocal reviews that I remember. Thats the good news; its a wild ride. Now, regarding the piston face.. WHEN using the "high quench" heads then the IDEAL combustion chamber would mirror the relief of the head in the relief of the piston.. in other words, a flat top is NOT the best for the P90 shape chamber; it is the standard but a flat top with the proper relief cut in it to mirror the head is the BEST. There is a whole WHOLE lot more to be said on the subject, but I don't think its precisely relevant here and its been said elsewhere better than I could possibly re-state it here... but I believe that was what sticky280zx meant by a piston "dish" with the p-90, and i don;t think goldfish quite caught that. In the end, the brains of your longblock may lie in your camshaft and valvetrain assembly, but its heart and soul lies in the shape of that intake tract and combustion chamber. (and the entire war that wages with the N-42/open chamber versus P-90 "high quench roolz you!!11!" should convince you of this fact) THAT is the head work that you need to do to reach your 250 pre-nitrous horsepower goal, and to do it on street gas to wind up with a streetable engine. I would say (I like to think its possible anyhow) that in the end the open chamber/quench choice is irrelevant in the long run; that is, done properly either one will do well, but the key is knowing HOW to do it. If you haven't already, start saving photos of EVERY cylinder head you see and take notes on what changes had been made to it. Buy the "how to modify datsun OHC engine" book and the others and read them cover to cover. Or just send a blank cylinder head out to braap and let him know what you want to do, and let HIM do the port and combustion chamber work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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