2eighTZ4me Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 This is the "notice" I got with my latest Schneider cam. They wrap it in the cardboard wrap that the cam is wrapped in so you cannot miss it. "To our valued customers: As many of you already know, there have been dramatic increases in flat tappet camshaft failures over the past few years. According to our research, this is due mostly to recent changes in motor oil formulas. Current strict emissions standards have pushed the oil companies to pull zinc, phosphorus, and other high-pressure lubricants out of the oils. The fact that most, if not all, late model motors equipped with roller tappet cams allowed the change. This has become so problematic for the flat-tappet world that HotRod magazine published an article on the subject [When Good Cams Go Bad, June 2006]. The life of a flat tappet camshaft depends on proper lubrication. Inferior oil formulas put your camshaft and motor at risk! Other camshaft failures can be attributed to a use of low quality off-shore produced "budget" lifters. While they are a cheap alternate to the ones we sell, as with most things, you get what you pay for. Here at Scheider Racing Cams, we have always strived to maintain the highest standards in camshaft production, using only the highest quality products. As such, we will only warrantee our camshafts when run with our accompanying valve train components and when a premium lubricant is used. Please see reverse for a list of recommended oils. Thank you for your loyal support" The oils they have listed on the back of the card are: Royal Purple Synthetic Motor Oil Redline Synthetic Motor Oil Brad Penn (same as Kendall's original formula) Oil Shell Rotella Diesel Oil. Recommended oil additives are; Schneider Formula 3 EP Engine Conditioner Power Up Oil Additive. As their disclaimer at the bottom states; "This is only a short listing of what we have had personal experience with. Please use your best judgement when purchasing oil for your engine, even during the break-in period" In my mind - that clears any doubt that the oil is to blame. But hey - they have an R&D department..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-ya Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I am wondering why I have not seen problems in close to 5 years with the Comp Cams camshaft and reground OEM rockers I'm running. For the most part I run conventional 20W50, except this year I ran Mobil 1 20W50. No additives. Cam and lifters have at least 5000 track miles on them. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2eighTZ4me Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 It took about 10,000 miles (I stated 8K earlier, but it now that I think about it, it was a bit over 10K) before my cam started munching itself. Give it time, or give it zinc! (for Pete's sake!! - sorry - I just couldn't resist that one) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-ya Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I'll just keep an eye on it, and report back if I see any signs of wear. I had the head off in November, and there were no signs of wear then. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Some do it, some don't. The metuallurgy is not exact cam to cam, neither is cam grinder's treatments of the surface nor the aftermarket rockers. While many are fine, many are not. The additive is becoming an industry recommendation because that is the cheapest way to address it and insure good consistent results. Especially if you use different metallurgy. Basically, the zinc makes the metalurgical issues moot as it doens't allow the forces to be present through it's characteristic lubrication. Truthfully, the only real 'cam failures' I heard of on Nissan Cams were from outright spraybar plugging, or someone re-using old rocker arms on a new cam. And even then it was few and far between. I have heard of more cam failures in the last, say four years, than the previous 20 I have been associated with building L-Engines with reground cams. Something changed. And the trail clearly points to Zinc. It's not to say if you have compatible metallurgy that you need zinc. But if you don't, or if you don't know, the chances are that the Zinc in there makes the metalurgical compoatibility of the individual components MUCH LESS FUSSY. Which is what oil is supposed to do. How many guy floated piston pins on bored out rods without a bushing? I did. Steel on steel. No problem. Why bronze? if your oil is doing it's job, the metal you use for your bushing is practically irrelevant as long as it withstands the forces without crumbling. Same situation with cams and rockers: the oil is not longer doing what it once did, and exposing all the bad things that can happen due to stuff that 'in the good old days' was talked about and warned about but in practical application never really ammounted to much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 the oil is not longer doing what it once did, and exposing all the bad things that can happen due to stuff that 'in the good old days' was talked about and warned about but in practical application never really ammounted to much. In other words, its exposing poor material choices made by product manufacturers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 In other words, its exposing poor material choices made by product manufacturers. That's my take on it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Just for the hell of it, I called Isky. For our L6 engines they prefer to regrind a used Nissan cam then to build one from a new billet because the old cams have better metallurgy then the new billets they get. Supposedly there's much less nickel (from 3.5% to 1.65%) in the new billets and that reduces the hardenability of the material. Looking at my materials reference it looks like the steel went from a 4820 to a 4340. It appears that the cam makers cut the quality of the materials because they could rely on the additional oil additives to make up for the loss of surface hardness. Funny how cost cutting often comes back to bite everyone in the butt - but of course its the EPA and the evil oil company's fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazeum Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 This post worries me (like many others, as I can see) I do have Scheinder cam in my L28. It needs an oil change I'm planning to do as soon as weather get warmer. What I don't understand is why this issue hasn't grown big until today. Mods on L engine are not new. It seems there's more knowledge on which turbo, cam or piston to use than oil. I find this awkward... To feel better, I'll check the cam in my engine during oil change and check for anything unexpected (better be safe than sorry ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 What I don't understand is why this issue hasn't grown big until today. Its not a big deal, the Internet exaggerates things. In the five year existence of the west coast Z racers mailing list I have yet to hear of someone losing a cam due to oil. A couple have lost cams because spray bars broke or were clogged and one lost a cam because of improper break-in, but no failures that I'm aware of due to oil additive changes. And this is a list of folks that road race their cars a lot in sanctioned events. The biggest engine issue now is thin valve spring retainers, which have caused a couple failures in the last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh817 Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 This post worries me (like many others, as I can see)I do have Scheinder cam in my L28. It needs an oil change I'm planning to do as soon as weather get warmer. What I don't understand is why this issue hasn't grown big until today. Mods on L engine are not new. It seems there's more knowledge on which turbo, cam or piston to use than oil. I find this awkward... To feel better, I'll check the cam in my engine during oil change and check for anything unexpected (better be safe than sorry ) Yah when I first saw this thread last summer I was crapping my pants all over the place. Now I still am since I too have about 1500-2000 miles on my motor, did an oil change after the first 400 miles and here I am now. When I looked at my cam it appeared to have similar markings but no failure just yet. Now I need to get some of that ZDDP or go with fresh oil and do the Delo 400. I DID use Kendall GT-1 but the one my father advised me to was 10w-50 and that stuff was so thick it was causing problems when it was cold out. Wouldn't let the motor rev passed 4500RPM... Hopefully ZDDP can be found in like Autozone or O'Rileys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazeum Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Its not a big deal, the Internet exaggerates things. Sure you are right. Internet exagerate things, it is also difficult to express our feelings online; I'm no so worried neither , I'll just double check when the opportunity to check would come. The fact the cam's OP has been bad only on one lobe make me wondering like many if oil is the only culprit. Looking at the rocker surface on the picture, it looks like porosity that can affect a lot the microscopic hardness of the retainer. This could also lead to severe wear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aarang Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 I had a post a while back about ZDDP and found that the STP four cylinder oil treatment in the red bottle had enough Zinc to keep our cams happy. I have been using it for two years on my Delta regrind with Chevron DELO ( the older stuff, not the newer low emissions kind) and haven't had any problems. The STP is easy to find in pretty much any store. Just make sure not to get the regular STP in the blue bottle as it has less ZDDP. This is the only reason I would use STP, as I have always shyed away from oil additives. Aaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh817 Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 I have been using it for two years on my Delta regrind with Chevron DELO ( the older stuff, not the newer low emissions kind) and haven't had any problems. Crap so the Chevron Delo 400 doesn't have the zinc we phosphorous we need in it anymore? They keep pulling out all the good stuff from our oil! Ah! Guess I better do what my dad does and buy cases of oil all at once so you always have some huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aarang Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Yeah, thats what I did. i bought a whole case of the older Chevron DELO. You can still find it around. I think the Rotella is still good, but it's only a matter of time..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh817 Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 I thought the common word was use diesel oil because it has what you need and Chevron Delo is diesel oil. If they start taking it out of that won't the diesel guys run into problems too? The way I was thinking was like "Oh good, as long as there are diesel motors I will have good oil" :[ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woldson Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Ok, I just have to ask: Won't any synthetic oil work just fine? Years back I read an extensive study about oils. The synthetic ability to resist "cooking" and "TEARING" was so vastly superior that really their was no comparison to conventional oils. As a side note, the WORST oil weight in conventional was 10-40! Did not matter who made that weight, it just fails miserable. Forgot why though. For a fellow to get a metal on metal situation, don't you need to get a tear? Abiding that everything else is fine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 THe question is really is it 'improper metalurrgy' chosen by current manufacturers, or simply them choosing stuff that should have been O.K. but now isn't because the oil changed??? I know people 'in the old days' that always re-used their rocker arms, and NEVER had a problem. The oils have changed. We know why they changed. It just gives less margin than oils of old IMO. I would never have re-used rocker arms, but people did it all the time in Japan. Never lunched a cam. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.... Sure the I-Net exaggerates it. But it's a known shortfall of the 'new improved oils'....Adding ZDDP is now the equivalent of using 'new' rocker arms when you change the cam. It's something that wasn't formerly an issue, but 'it was a good idea just in case'... For the price of the additive.....cost benefit analysis anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woldson Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 The one on the far right is from the bullfrog cam. I did 12 years ago. Broke the bullfrog cam in on conventional, then ran syn afterwords. Pulled that engine years before what you fellows are talking about. Put about50-60k on that engine. Cam and rocker arms essentially were fine. Going to use in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-ya Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 What does the came side look like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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