Chris240zTurbo Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Bo, I bet I've got 30 to 40 L28ET rod/piston assmeblies, I'm sure I could gather a decent set together, you would have to source a set of rings. I also have 5 or 6 F-54 blocks with good crankshafts too, but I bet they'd cost a TON to ship from TX to CA We pieced Phils engine together from my pile o' stuff, and it's been boosting 20+ psi for two years now, if you need anything I've got, you're welcome to it. Contact Big-Phil if you need to reach me, I'm rarely online... Too bad about the broken stuff, but man, I'm WAY ahead of you in the "I break stuff" category!!! oh, and I agree with everyone here that you'll miss the boost if you go for an N/A L engine, that why I bought another 240Z, with triples... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share Posted June 10, 2009 Chris, thanks for the offer. I'll probably take you up on the offer for the rods and pistons. I'll pm Phil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Wow man, I just wrote you this hyper thick worded, difficult to read but well summarizing reply to the flat top vs dished question in PM. Now i come and read the update in this thread, and I want to say just throw some stockers in there and keep going until you have it right. THAT is what I think you ought to do right now. The rest of what I said: just file that away for when you are ready to build your final motor. But seriously, you pulled the motor apart almost instantaneously, the bearings should all be fine (but worth a check just so you know how they are) and as long as the bores aren't too out of round just hone it and be done with it. How much does a set of rings and a headgasket cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 I am looking for the N42 to support that dream, but another turbo block - even flat tops, would be fine. Know anybody local? You and Priddy can strip to the waist and fight for a knife I throw out into the back yard, the victor can have an N42 from the hoard... LOL Not really. I would not give up my N42's. But if you guys want to Gladiator-Style it for leads, that's fine with me! Jeff is in the same situation as you now, and has followed the 'Just boost a stocker till you get the EFI nailed'--you know his results. He bought that engine for less than the damn PISTONS on his stroker! He now is an N42 Vampire, stalking the SoCal junkyards for early cars to snipe their blocks! Yeah, find some 87mm Z22 Pistons with the low pin height that puts em aroudn 1.2 mm down the bore... 2898cc with the LD Crank or something like that. In Japan the econo-mod was running Honda XL500 pistons, with L14 or another L-Rod. Depending on the rod, you either had 1.5 mm negative deck height, or 1.5mm positive deck height. At the time the XL pistons from a Honda Japan dealer were around 1500 yen ($15 when the yen went to crap, it was cheaper by half before it went from 268 to 131...then 117...now 81 to the $, I digress!) INCLUDING rings and pin with spirolocks. I have a writeup someplace at the house. When I get back from this trip, I have to buy another container and make a damn library at the house so I can access this stuff when I need it. I just can't bear to buy a 20 footer when I know I can get a 40 footer for only $300 more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 Daeron, I plan on boosting a stocker, either a dished or flat top setup hence the other post. This has always been my test block. The other idea is just that, an idea for the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgkurz Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 You and Priddy can strip to the waist and fight for a knife I throw out into the back yard, the victor can have an N42 from the hoard... LOL Not really. I would not give up my N42's. But if you guys want to Gladiator-Style it for leads, that's fine with me! Jeff is in the same situation as you now, and has followed the 'Just boost a stocker till you get the EFI nailed'--you know his results. He bought that engine for less than the damn PISTONS on his stroker! He now is an N42 Vampire, stalking the SoCal junkyards for early cars to snipe their blocks! Yeah, find some 87mm Z22 Pistons with the low pin height that puts em aroudn 1.2 mm down the bore... 2898cc with the LD Crank or something like that. In Japan the econo-mod was running Honda XL500 pistons, with L14 or another L-Rod. Depending on the rod, you either had 1.5 mm negative deck height, or 1.5mm positive deck height. At the time the XL pistons from a Honda Japan dealer were around 1500 yen ($15 when the yen went to crap, it was cheaper by half before it went from 268 to 131...then 117...now 81 to the $, I digress!) INCLUDING rings and pin with spirolocks. I have a writeup someplace at the house. When I get back from this trip, I have to buy another container and make a damn library at the house so I can access this stuff when I need it. I just can't bear to buy a 20 footer when I know I can get a 40 footer for only $300 more... Tony and Bo, Why the N42 and not a P90? Doesn't the N42 have less quench? I know TimZ has had amazing luck with his N42, but I was never sure whether that was inherent to the head design or just good preparation ie porting, blending, port matching, polishing, seats, coatings, etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlatBlack Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Tony and Bo, Why the N42 and not a P90? Doesn't the N42 have less quench? I know TimZ has had amazing luck with his N42, but I was never sure whether that was inherent to the head design or just good preparation ie porting, blending, port matching, polishing, seats, coatings, etc.... I think they are talking about N42 [early L28] blocks, not N42 heads. I was confused at first as well. He now is an N42 Vampire, stalking the SoCal junkyards for early cars to snipe their blocks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 Exactly, we are talking about the N42 blocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slownrusty Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 OK the difference between the N42 block and F54 is? 'Just boost a stocker till you get the EFI nailed'-- This comment scares me Tony as I am getting ready to do the Haltech conversion on my big $$$ L30 motor... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan5138 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 I have a bone stock N42 longblock at a friends. I'd be willing to let it go pretty cheap, just take the head / pan off and clean her up a lil. It came out of a '76 280 with about 107K on it. But Irvine is like a 6 hour drive I think... . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slown280z Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 OK the difference between the N42 block and F54 is? N42 isn't siamesed and usually has thicker cylinder walls making it better for a stroker build aiming for a lot of horsepower (especially a turbo stroker). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 I have a bone stock N42 longblock at a friends. I'd be willing to let it go pretty cheap, just take the head / pan off and clean her up a lil. It came out of a '76 280 with about 107K on it. But Irvine is like a 6 hour drive I think... . Sent ya a PM. I do a lot of driving anyways so a little trip would not be bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 This comment scares me Tony as I am getting ready to do the Haltech conversion on my big $$$ L30 motor... Talk to JeffP about his decision after two sets of pistons/rings... Steve Web was the guy who said it to me back in Albequerque (1995?): My engine here is a 160,000 stock hydraulic liftered junkyard motor we put in two days ago after I blew my good motor. If you are considering doing this, buy the bolt-ons, and get your EFI dialed in first before building a good motor! This thing is making 425 (shows me the dyno slip dated a day earlier) to the rear wheels, and I drove it here from Texas. It's making almost as much as my expensive bottom end. Jeff was up making MORE HP with the stock L28ET bottom end that he previously made when his car was in ZCar Magazine! 450+HP on the stock bottom end. For testing and proving chassis, this is enough. It only has to hold together till you get it nailed. If it goes boom...you're out a couple hundred. Your big engine gets a lean spot under boost on the dyno while tuning and goes boom, how much will that cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X64v Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Interesting insight into this thread for sure. I'm still driving on my bottom end when I absolutely have to (grocery store, etc.), it's just smoking at every stoplight. I just bought a daily driver, and as soon as I get it on the 26th, the motor will be coming out of the 240. I was planning on getting the 3.2L bottom end kit from Rebello with forged pistons and all, but that would mean a bigger turbo, manifold porting, etc. etc., and I really have no desire to blow that up. A junkyard block or something similar is looking pretty tasty for the price, especially considering I've got the tuning nailed for the 2753cc bottom end, and that would leave me lots of cash left for things like ceramic coating, a knocksense module, and maybe even books next semester. Can a block be honed twice and still be used with stock-sized pistons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Deglazing (not technically honing where you abrade the surface to a set final diameter and finish...) is almost infinite. The key is lightly breaking the glase on the cylinder walls. There is leeway, measure before the operation starts with a GOOD dial bore gauge and inside mic for all particulars (taper, out of round, etc)... It is not uncommon for racers to use the "ball flex-hone" on the cylinders several times before going to the expense of honing to the next oversize, or boring outright to something much bigger. Re-ring operation calls for deglazing. Finishing the bores after boring is honing. It's like "Freeze Plugs" for others on here. It's a bugaboo in terminology misapplication that takes on more significance with the new machinery available that literally can hone in 0.010 and 0.020" increments where previously you would have to bore & hone to go that oversize. Now just stick it in the Sunnen Machine and hone with coarse abrasives to X diameter, then switch stones to final diameter and finish! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X64v Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Well isn't that just wonderful news. Saves me from having to find another block, as this one has only been deglazed once. As long as blowing the ringlands hasn't hurt the cylinder wall too much, all should be bueno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Absolutamente, amigo! El Boro perfecto, mas bustamondo bien, compadre! VIVA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffp Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 The stroker bottom end did make significant improvements in torque over the stock bottom end. I also lost 175Hp for the same boost levels with the stroker rotating asembly. My first test was with a FelPro gasket 65foot pounds of torqueon the head gasket. Same head, yada yada yada. I was running 1800CC's of meth at the time. @ 12 psi of boost it ran 410Hp. The dyno graph you looked at the show was daed nuts on I found out later. I blew every cylinder, and flashed across 2&3. Second test: Stock Turbo head gasket, torqued the head to 70 foot pounds. Back at the dyno, running C16 the car made 475 Hp @ 22 psi. The car was doing good, but Bernard and I did not have time to tune under 3K so we ran it on the dyno 3K-7K and it was tuned well. The low rpm needed some help, and I knew that. I let Frank drive the car and it ran well, but turning the car around down Tonyies street, literally gassing it out of the turn, the car went lean knocked, and blew #5 out the side, no water, no oil. I knew what happened, but at the time my wife was a little upset, so I drove the car home 50 miles or so. The car has been sitting in the garage. I will take it down, but it also appears I also took out some rings, as it was puffing smoke out the oil filler cap, that on my car means only one thing, bad rings. The mod to #5 and #6 did not help me with a traffic jam on the 91 with the A/C on. The car still got hot, ao I knew the heating issue realistically was not solved. I jave since gotten some parts and blocks. I am building another Greolomy head with Nathan, just like the current head. I am going to test some improvements to the stock block, but the N42 block I got has to be o-ringed because some yoyo decided a few center punch marks in the deck would be beneficial for some reason. I have some work to do, but at the end of the day I am hoping to put this heating issue to bed once and for all! 650Hp is no good to me or anyone else if it can not be sustained longer then it takes to do a pull on a dyno! So that is what I am doing presently, along with some work on a modified EURO exhaust manifold. Tony has been making suggestions again, and you know they always are expensive LOL but I think it just may be the ticket for a good deal many turbo cars, but we will see, hell who knows, maybe, just maybe I may offer a complete system that will very effectively support 650Hp as a bolt on LOL now that would be to SWEET. So in short, I don"t recommend anything over 350Hp and keep a stock head to boot for those levels. You can push higher hp in the 400 range, but it also would appear that running methanol can be problematic, when the power reaches the point that the injection of the methanol is not sufficient to provide any additional power. I believe it is at that point when you start increasing the gas (fuel) that the timing becomes critical, as now the engine will run entirely differently from a methanol mix, back to a strait fuel for the engine. It is better to run one or the other for max HP but not both, remember I was injecting 1800cc's @ 400Hp @ 12 psi of boost. Or use the methanol to trim up the fuel map and provide more for cooling of the intake charge. Tuning and compensating timing for a constant changing fuel burn time can be tricky, and in my opinion, doing pulls on the dyno in the car is very difficult. I am beginning to believe the best tuning is completed on an engine dyno. Anyway sorry to hear it went bad with the rings, but I think I am in the same boat as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 Jeff, sorry to hear about your woes as well. I have had no problems when running a 95+ octane blend (100 octane and 91 octane), but I have been having one helluva time getting my timing right with pure 91 octane and methanol. I know I blew my head gasket and rings running straight 91 octane while detuning the car. I am running two maps that I can switch to via a manul switch in the car. Keep in mind my car ran for a good 9 months without issue. It was not until recently when I was detuning the car for just 91 octane (again, down from 95 octane) that I ran into my problems. I blew the HG back in March and thought it an exhaust leak (#4, right out the side, no oil or water). It was so subtle as well. I am torn at the moment. I am going to have the block either honed ($120) or bored 1 mm ($240 for any size bore). I can get ITM pistons, pins and rings for $220, no forged goodies for me. I don't plan on getting crazy, but the idea of another JY block just to tear it down again does not appeal to me. I figure I'll be $600 into the rebuild and have a known bottom end. I am going to do some clean-up work in my head, a little more on the intake, pull some more timing, add a little more fuel back into the map, and see where it gets me. I know I can clear 350 wheel ft-lbs easily; a 1 mm overbore would net me a 5% bump in power. Some clean-up work on the head maybe a little more. The gasket can take the power as can the rings. We've both shown that. You can not detonate at those power levels though. My AFRs looked pretty damn good across the map. I believe my problem was timing. The only problem with doing this work is that my tuning will be starting from scratch. Sure, I'll have a base map to work with, but with the increased air flow (either from the bore and/or head work) my fuel map will require tweaking. Ah well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I am not the Piston Ring Antichrist. Association with me will not cause you to blow head gaskets and sink your rings and cost you tons of money. I am not the Piston Ring Antichrist. Association with me will not cause you to blow head gaskets and sink your rings and cost you tons of money. I am not the Piston Ring Antichrist. Association with me will not cause you to blow head gaskets and sink your rings and cost you tons of money. I am not the Piston Ring Antichrist. Association with me will not cause you to blow head gaskets and sink your rings and cost you tons of money. I am not the Piston Ring Antichrist. Association with me will not cause you to blow head gaskets and sink your rings and cost you tons of money. I am not the Piston Ring Antichrist. Association with me will not cause you to blow head gaskets and sink your rings and cost you tons of money. I am not the Piston Ring Antichrist. Association with me will not cause you to blow head gaskets and sink your rings and cost you tons of money. I am not the Piston Ring Antichrist. Association with me will not cause you to blow head gaskets and sink your rings and cost you tons of money. I am not the Piston Ring Antichrist. Association with me will not cause you to blow head gaskets and sink your rings and cost you tons of money. I am not the Piston Ring Antichrist. Association with me will not cause you to blow head gaskets and sink your rings and cost you tons of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.