Japanese N/A L6 400hp, how they do it, pictures I've found, etc. Not 56k safe

[260DET]

I've found all the comment interesting, a little vigorous debating can often bring out new information or dispute old, all of which is good. Anyway, the thread started out being JDM based and sort of drifted into a Japan -v- USA 'comparison discussion', no reason why it can't bget back on topic is there?

 

Thing with the JDM L6 engine stuff is that it is still being made and sold today while the US stuff is much harder to find info on and sources for. For example, is there a US equivalent of Kameari today? Technology has moved on since the BRE and Electramotive days, how their achievements can be compared with current developments I do not know. But its all interesting to hear about, my trash talk filter works well so that may help

[Tony D]

"Technology has moved on since the BRE and Electramotive days, how their achievements can be compared with current developments I do not know. "

 

The point being that Racer Brown in the early 70's had asymetric cams. Nobody else did.

Then in the early 80's Isky redesigned their original offerings after reverse engineering and coming to the same conclusion Race Brown did 10 years previously.

Now, 10 years hence, Sunbelt's claim to fame is a special camshaft with asymetric profile which allows lower spring pressures blah blah blah...

 

By saying just because something was 'developed' 10, 20, 30 years ago must somehow be 'outdated' is a fools errand. Good engineering is timeless. If it's done properly from the start (and I will attest to standard NON-assymetric cams being offered in the 80's in Japan, I owned some!) there really is little to 'improve upon'.

 

I'm simply stating that the engineering and technology existed from the START, just that it took some people years to either figure it out, or rediscover what was once known (but kept as a proprietary secret).

 

Face the facts here: Most aftermarket cam grinders ARE NOT Mechanical Engineers with a specialty in camshaft or induction dynamics. They are technicians for the most part.

 

As far as 'an equivalent' of Kameanari in USA, no, likely not anywhere in the world will there be other than Japan.

 

But for camshafts? Hell yes there is, and that was also the point.

 

Engineering is engineering. It's just so much of the aftermarket for vehicle hard parts is NOT engineered properly, if at all. When you come across something that IS properly engineered, you will find usually it is at the top of the heap when it comes to pricing, and quality.

[260DET]

Your commentry Tony is partly the reason why this is such an interesting and informative thread. And I agree that good engineering remains good engineering, but the thing is US suppliers like Isky don't even list old Datsun cams or other valve train components whereas the Japanese suppliers do. This is 2010 and most people look at whats available now and how it performs now, they can't know what was done forty years ago and have no means of comparison and often no interest because its no longer available.

[JMortensen]

Your commentry Tony is partly the reason why this is such an interesting and informative thread. And I agree that good engineering remains good engineering, but the thing is US suppliers like Isky don't even list old Datsun cams or other valve train components whereas the Japanese suppliers do. This is 2010 and most people look at whats available now and how it performs now, they can't know what was done forty years ago and have no means of comparison and often no interest because its no longer available.

From ISKY's website: http://www.iskycams.com/pdfcatalog/2004-05/page176.pdf

 

They do list cams (and springs and retainers), but you're right that they don't have rockers and some of the other little odds and ends. As I recall they were the only source for cam tower shims that I found when I was building my last head too. Sometimes you have to ask though.

 

My understanding is that the Sunbelt cam is different still and is not your "typical" assymetric cam. I want to say the ISKY springs are very stiff (again, this is what I remember coming from the machinist the last time I built an L head which was 7 or 8 years ago). It's a bit fuzzy, but I'm pretty sure it was due to the stiffness of the ISKY springs that I went with the Schneider springs. The Sunbelt springs are less stiff than a standard double spring setup if they're claiming you gain hp by reducing parasitic losses.

[yetterben]

The pure fact of what is still available or advertised in America goes like this. US moves on bigger better badder fatter etc.....it is not worth while for alot of companies to offer or advertise parts for a niche market. Would you have a business devoted to a L series motor in the us or rather offer parts for all the latest and greatest cars. I know i would offer parts for a 2010+ Camaro or whatever the latest ricer car is. Gotta go where the money is.

 

We are a niche market. The L gata on the mainland is not.

Edited May 5, 2010 by yetterben

[260DET]

From ISKY's website: http://www.iskycams.com/pdfcatalog/2004-05/page176.pdf

 

They do list cams (and springs and retainers), but you're right that they don't have rockers and some of the other little odds and ends. As I recall they were the only source for cam tower shims that I found when I was building my last head too. Sometimes you have to ask though.

 

............................

 

Sprung again, oh well, must have been cams for the Z31 that they did not list, Z32 too?

[260DET]

The pure fact of what is still available or advertised in America goes like this. US moves on bigger better badder fatter etc.....it is not worth while for alot of companies to offer or advertise parts for a niche market. Would you have a business devoted to a L series motor in the us or rather offer parts for all the latest and greatest cars. I know i would offer parts for a 2010+ Camaro or whatever the latest ricer car is. Gotta go where the money is.

 

We are a niche market. The L gata on the mainland is not.

 

Of course but there is nothing wrong with a niche market, great way to start up a small capital business really. Markets are global these days, there is no reason why a US based old Jap engine hot bits supplier could not do very well it seems to me. Look at what Dave from Arizona Z is doing niche wise for example.

 

Err, does the US accept business migrants?

[yetterben]

Sure sure but there is not tons of money in it. Daves product line is niche too. The best of course, but you only have so much of a target market. I think alot of the old heads are in there twilight and realize the money is always and always will be in the whats hot now market.

 

R&D is still going for the L on the mainland. Here its all but dead. Its all about the greatest force in the universe now....or thats where the money is for the aftermarket now. Can you say Honduh.

Edited May 6, 2010 by yetterben

[frank280zx]

Frank, I don't really know what a "pommy" is.....

 

I think I've tried to add some points of perspective to this topic, and it still seems to me that you are writing off the Kameari cams without truly understanding what they use and why they use it. I also don't understand the significance of this talk about "reverse engineered" cams ( who's copying who, and why, and when...??? ), and your example of "1000RWHP!!!" seems to be a little left-field to say the least. Did anybody doubt that the likes of Electramotive could build hour-lifed, high-output turbocharged race engines? It seems to me that such examples are far outside the largely home-built, amateur street/drag builds ( not the factory-supported pure circuit racing efforts of professionals ) that this thread appears to be attempting to investigate.

 

If there's any pot-stirring going on then I'm certainly not the only one that can have the finger pointed at him.

 

Actually those engines had a life span of over 30 hours amazing to me but a fact!

The reverse engenering comes in to the fact that isky put in allot of work shadow lining Nissan Products. They got no answers from JAPAN and not some stateside office like you claimed some post earlier, Ron and Ed told me Japan wasn’t going to help out with information needed to campaign their Nissans in competition. The significance is that another small Company... with dedication (isky) is doing the same for the US market.

Im not writing of any of Kameari's products. and if I would I would do it based on the prizes the US market tends to ask for the products, as for that money you can do better (pricewise) in my book.

Nobody is putting down any of the Japanese market.

As for Pommy .. wiki is very knowledgeable. But for a good viewing watch the world fastest Indian. It’s a great movie! And it gets explained there and im sure you would aprieciate the movie!

Now if only someone would make some decent headers for the L series (like the kameari ones but for LHD) as the MSA units a great but for all out RPM performance not the best you could do by a long shot.

I love the Kameari Collectors! if seen that is some custom Shelby exhaust before!

Edited May 6, 2010 by frank280zx

[260DET]

If the Kameari collectors you are talking about Frank are the six in a circle type then there are other sources. They are fairly common in AU, eg 6boost makes them for his manifolds, Burns Exhaust I think it is in the US may be a source, there are probably others.

[HS30-H]

Actually those engines had a life span of over 30 hours amazing to me but a fact!

 

So, as I said, "hour-lifed". Quite normal for all-out race engines, but perhaps a little inconvenient for privateers who talk about needing to use the same engine to drive to work and back too.....

 

The reverse engenering comes in to the fact that isky put in allot of work shadow lining Nissan Products. They got no answers from JAPAN and not some stateside office like you claimed some post earlier, Ron and Ed told me Japan wasn’t going to help out with information needed to campaign their Nissans in competition.

 

Putting aside any Lost In Translation type possibilities and taking this story at face value, as reported, I have to wonder just what they were expecting to receive? As far as I am aware, Nissan Motor Co. of Japan and their various Japan-based competition departments didn't have any contract or deal with Iskenderian ( unless you know better? ). NMC USA had deals with the likes of BRE and BSR, and it would have been up to BRE and BSR to come up with the parts they needed - with the assistance of NMC USA - to do the job. I'm wondering why Isky were reportedly approaching Nissan Japan and asking for cam data? That's commercial intellectual property! Having had their subsidiary NMC USA contract with the likes of BRE and BSR, why would Nissan Japan effectively buy a dog and bark themselves...? Nissan had their own 'Sports Option' cams to sell, too.

 

The point being that Racer Brown in the early 70's had asymetric cams. Nobody else did.

 

Come now Tony, asymmetric cam profiles are almost as old as the Otto Cycle engine itself. Half of the 'secrets' we often talk about were known to the likes of Ernest Henry, Louis Coatalen and Harry Miller in the first half of the twentieth century. As far as Nissan race engines are concerned, the GR8 'twink' and GRX-II V12 ( 1966 and 1968 respectively ) used asymmetric cam profiles. I have plenty of respect for the likes of Racer Brown and Isky, but let's perhaps look a little further...

 

Thanks for your PM, by the way. I agree with almost everything you wrote. Almost......

[frank280zx]

So, as I said, "hour-lifed". Quite normal for all-out race engines, but perhaps a little inconvenient for privateers who talk about needing to use the same engine to drive to work and back too.....

 

Agreed.. though 1100hp is stretching it! I also wonder how long lifed a 9K rpm drag engine is (the 400HP engines this topic is all about) I bet it wont last 50k miles either .. maybe 10K at most ?

And on full load (like 30 hour life span of the 1100RWHP is based on) its life span becomes measured in hours aswel.

I bet the 1100RWHP engine could go for longer than 30 hours aswel if being street driven (not that it would be very street able but you get my point)

My question with all this would be how durable are these engines in 400 HP form?

Edited May 6, 2010 by frank280zx

[Tony D]

Your commentry Tony is partly the reason why this is such an interesting and informative thread. And I agree that good engineering remains good engineering, but the thing is US suppliers like Isky don't even list old Datsun cams or other valve train components whereas the Japanese suppliers do. This is 2010 and most people look at whats available now and how it performs now, they can't know what was done forty years ago and have no means of comparison and often no interest because its no longer available.

 

You are absolutely wrong there. Isky has a specific section in their catalog with parts and all valvetrain components listed. Not only for L6's but L4's as well. Paeco in Birmingham Alabama also lists the U20, roadster, A-Series in their catalog as well.

 

Like I said, most of the 'revolutionary developments' being 'discovered' in this thread are not that at all. They are simply one person's REDISCOVERY of what is known (or what has been known, then moved on from.) Ignorance plays a big part---people don't ask simply because they don't know who to talk to. History is always a poor subject by kids in school, and as a result with no respect for history, they foster a culture of 'latest is greatest' ignoring what was obviously done and left as good years ago.

 

And to reiterate, you are dead wrong about Isky, they have full L-Valvetrain componentry listed. Valves are not their specialty, you get those someplace else. But cam, rockers, retainers, springs, lash pads, caps.... they got em all. What is in their catalog is what most people ASK for, so that is what is listed.

 

I know, I just did a counter sale last Thursday and came away with a dozen brand-new looking (not rusty as hell like posted someplace else as supplied by another 'specialty vendor') 0.330" Lash Pads...

 

Now as to what 'development' is occurring....I'll lay money there is more actual DEVELOPMENT going on in the USA than in Japan. Show me a 0.750" lift Datsun cam. Chevy's got em. Most people are saying their ports show no increase in flow after 0.620" lift---was that because they have a physical limitation, or is it simply because nobody grinds a cam larger than 0.620"?

 

And be clear here: Kameari is refining and existing part. They are not developing something radically different than what preceeded it (or Wakos, or Isky).

 

What if I told you there was development of a cam with lift of more than 0.620" that would allow more flow? As the saying goes 'there are things going on you don't know about'... and it's not major manufacturers doing this work. It's people who are still using the L-Engine in COMPETITON. Kameari actively campaigns an L-Engine. So they develop their own stuff. Because that is the nature of hot rodding. It always has been. The big manufacturers, like Ben said, are after the largest volume unit market they can have. It's EASIER to make a profit there. This is why Kameari and Tomei parts are priced the way they are: the lower volume market you have, chances are the pricing has to be higher per unit to justify even production much less R&D Efforts, and profit.

 

I'm sure there will be box-thinkers who will give me the old saw about why there is an arbitrary lift limit on L-SOHC Camshafts. They aren't the ones developing a higher lift cam, either. And to be clear on something else: when Isky was apprised of the DEVELOPMENT of a cam for the Datsun as described above, eyebrows were raised, and an enthusiastic 'I'd like to help in any way I can on that project'... Same went for some people at Erson...

 

INDIVIDUALS will have to spend their money if they want something different than what the majors offer. Kamerari will give you what they grind. So will Tomei. Isky has stock grinds, and they can tailor them to an individuals setup with alterations in timing, etc...

 

But there are exciting things being DEVELOPED totally different than anything previously attempted on the Datsun SOHC L. Not that it hasn't been done on other applications. It's just getting the knowledge from one application, and properly adapting it to work elsewhere.

 

And on the subject of Racer Brown Assymetric Cams, I stand by my statement: NOBODY (in the context discussed here, the L-Engine) was grinding an assymetric grind at the time, neither here or in Japan. Nissan did, no aftermarket manufacturer did. Save for Racer Brown. And that was because that was what his 'thing' was, and he did it for Mopars and Chevys as well.

 

Like I said, taking one application and properly adapting it to another process. Adaptive Engineering.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Tony D

[260DET]

Interesting as usual Tony, yeh as I said to Jon its the later Nissan cams eg VG30 that Isky don't list, not the old L ones. So whats happening with the higher lift L cams you mentioned? Who is developing them? I always thought the higher the maximum lift the better simply because it results in more effective lift over the duration. Which is my ***** with my VG30DET engine, twin cams four valves nice flowing induction system, all with a miserable 8.5mm lift. Prefer a higher lift rocker design myself, lift rules.

[Tony D]

Isky does make VG Cams, it's back to a volume/market thing. Don't waste the ink on a dead engine.

 

Development proceeds on the other item. It will not be made public for reasons floating around on other related threads. Suffice to say if you want something done, you buck up your money and quit whining...get-er done.

 

Thing is, if you don't have access to people with experience in this field, likely the development will be nothing more than idle chat on an interweb site. Money is only one facet of getting the development done. That is in the implementation stage of the work. Ideas and thinking outside the box (or as said before, knowing which applications from which to glean applicable bits of technology) are what has to be implemented before the cam is actually ground. Profile selected, ramp rates and etc decided upon, springs... What about a cam with 'stock' specs as you read the cam card...but produces 10, 15, 20% more horsepower? What about a big cam with idle vacuum like a stocker? All it takes is the right approach and a willing cam grinder who knows his business.

 

 

Oh, as to different ratio arms, remember that was a big thing in the pushrod set. You change the rocker profile you have to redesign the opening/closing ramp rates to take advantage of the different ratio. You can bolt rocker arms on a VW, for instance and get a power bump, but do it on a hot cam and you run into float problems because the ramp doesn't accomodate for the radically different valve acceleration rate with the new rockers. With Direct Tappet on Bucket designs lift is limited by physical clearance from cam centerline to valve seal and spring binding point. Without complex machining, higher lifts are not possible. Now, if you want to do some spring pocket machining....you can get more lift!

 

Just a graphical aid for this '400HP' discussion. Remember, those guys went 163... like I said, 'do the math' before lauding a stripper big bore drag engine to something that withstands the kind of punishment top speed trials put on an engine:

 

http://www.datsuns.com/Tech/tech_aero.htm

Edited May 9, 2010 by Tony D

[rnye]

Great thread and great read!

 

Very informative.

[josh817]

Lol this again.

 

To say the least, the little cone nozzle thing was actually just a baffle to quiet the car down since apparently they drive them around a little too. For the cranks, mill 6mm off the back flywheel flange (don't mill where the pilot bearing goes... please) and then drill and tap the flywheel bolt threads deeper. I would also put 2 more dowels so you have a total of 3 on the back. The front of the crank snout is modified to use 1 big key instead of 3 small keys. I believe this keeps them from walloping out. You can see in the picture of the crank they show it. At first I was like what the hell are they trying to show and then I read more about it. I'm not sure how they go about putting one huge key in the crank though... Is it just a steel piece that they tap in?

 

I'm still lurking around for information on the Helmholtz effect. I remember when I was younger, on our big computer speaker if you played certain frequencies you could hold a note card or a piece of paper inches from the hole in the back and it would be sucked up against the speaker. You could then let go and as long as the frequency is playing the paper is trapped in the spot.

 

I know speakers are tuned for best performance at a certain frequency. The tuning of a pipe I would assume could be the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4dINlO3Kss

 

I don't know... Just something to think about. Right now I'm in the process of trying to make a monster head. Kinda-sorta using this thread and what I've typed up in some documents to replicate things. Its a long term just for fun project. Meaning, I'm trying my best to ignore the money I'll dump into it because its a hobby. Head is at the machine shop having guides pressed out and chambers welded. I went with an E88 head because its what I had on hand. While thats going on I purchased resurfaced rockers which I will lighten on the valve end. Now I'm in the dilema of what displacement to build. 2.4L or 3.1L. I have cranks for both and blocks for both however I will be racing this in a vintage club and rules call for stock displacement with a max of .060" overbore. Plenty of time to figure that out. When it comes time to do the crank, that's when I must decide.

Edited July 17, 2010 by josh817

[-eric]

So I'll tease abit, No definite confirmation, I need todo some measurements.

 

 

That and I have to check the head, have to check for the valve guides, but its ported huge.

I never thought much of it until I seen this thread. I picked the engine up and it had a 2400 ohc valve cover on it, it looked alittle different.

I figured it was just a turbo engine done up, but I havent seen any with valve reliefs in the pistons.

[260DET]

.....................................................................

 

I don't know... Just something to think about. Right now I'm in the process of trying to make a monster head. Kinda-sorta using this thread and what I've typed up in some documents to replicate things. Its a long term just for fun project. Meaning, I'm trying my best to ignore the money I'll dump into it because its a hobby. Head is at the machine shop having guides pressed out and chambers welded. I went with an E88 head because its what I had on hand. While thats going on I purchased resurfaced rockers which I will lighten on the valve end. Now I'm in the dilema of what displacement to build. 2.4L or 3.1L. I have cranks for both and blocks for both however I will be racing this in a vintage club and rules call for stock displacement with a max of .060" overbore. Plenty of time to figure that out. When it comes time to do the crank, that's when I must decide.

 

On the choice of displacement, you may find this Datsun orientated calculator useful http://www.ozdat.com/ozdatonline/enginedesign/

[josh817]

Oh I know the combination and stuff and you aren't allowed to fiddle with that stuff. Stuff like run an L20A crank with a bigger bore sort of thing. If there is too much speculation, they'll check you. They won't kick you out or anything but they will deduct points.

 

Something I just thought about is to look into how they deduct for engine modification. My head will be welded, and that isn't allowed. So if under engine modification you can lose say 5 points, and I lose all 5 just because of a welded head, then I might as well make up for it by going all out.

 

They won't know I have a welded head either. Basically, all the internals are unknown and they don't check until someone complains. Only reason why someone would complain is if I spank them so much and they aren't use to a Z spanking them (or they're wiener babies). From there they would do a displacement check, see its 2.4L since you can do that without tearing down a motor. The club is pretty lax, and no one complains in there. As a flag waiver, I know some suspicious cars but it really widdles down to how much money you have. A lot of people will lose points in tech, but by winning 1st and 2nd they regain the points.

 

Same thing for weight too. The BMW Dad and I are building for us, they call for displacement x 1.something for your weight. Thats over 2000 pounds, and the car out of the factory didn't even weigh that. So do we want to lose points on weight? Yes because everyone else lost points so now technically the max number of points you can make and still be competitive has lowered down slightly and you might as well jump on the train and not bother with weight. Good for us since we have a 1602, so we will weigh even lighter then a stripped 2002 but we all lose the same amount of points whether your 200 pounds under or 500 under.

Edited July 21, 2010 by josh817